For mappers: Zscript to force disable jumping and crouching

[dpJudas]

4 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

And by the way, mappers have every right to create in their spare time whatever they so desire, and no matter how often you keep telling yourself that somehow as a random player you have the last word in this matter, that simply isn't gonna change. Don't like what people share for free? Play something else. Simple.

It is funny that you think you have the last say. Sure, I can't change the map layout without effort, but of the obvious easy things to do that I do with a lot of user mods:

 

1) IDKFA

2) IDDQD

3) IDCLIP

4) resurrect

5) give health

6) give armor

7) give ammo

8) map <next map number>

9) kill archvile

 

All very useful tools against mappers that have a different idea of what a fun map is about, and there's nothing in the entire world you can do to stop me from typing those commands. Muhahaha!

 

Of course, if those things aren't enough I'll usually just play maps from some other level designer out there, as I clearly think the maps are terrible at this point..

[Zanieon]

From all you listed dpJudas, surely only resurrect makes me grind my teeth because that is such a looser cheat for those who doesn't properly use the save system, as for the rest, people have to deal with the thing, i get upset sometimes for stuff like that but it is always like 5 or 10 people doing that among the hundreds that plays the map properly without any sort cheating or extra commands.

It is that typical fact, ten people screaming loud surely brings more attention than a thousand that is quiet enjoying things the way they are, getting upset with the minority that plays our content improperly is kinda a waste of time, imo.

[dpJudas]

I only rarely use the resurrect command, and it is indeed because I don't use the save system at all personally. As for the other commands, I usually activate some form of them because lots of level designers like to kill me by attrition by limiting ammo and health packs, then hide all the good armors in secrets I didn't find. Or they spawn archviles in ways that guarantee I die the first time, and since I don't save and think its crappy gameplay whenever something just has to be known, well..

 

Main point however is that players will adjust any game they play to their liking. For some that means "experiencing the vision of the level designer", and for others, like me, it means "cheating" if the game for one reason or another fails to match what I'm seeking from the experience. I'm sorry, I will only follow the original game designers vision as long as it aligns with my fun.

[Nine Inch Heels]

48 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

It is funny that you think you have the last say. Sure, I can't change the map layout without effort, but of the obvious easy things to do that I do with a lot of user mods:

It's funny that you can't even follow a thread properly. Let me re-iterate this for you, because it seems there's a problem with your attention span:

If you use for example IDCLIP, or any similar thing like "fly", you know that there's a chance you're bypassing triggers while you do. And the reason you are aware is that you're actively and knowingly entering a cheat code, which isn't going to happen on accident. But if you jump around in maps, assuming it's perfectly fine to do so, and you end up breaking something or you get stuck, you didn't know what exactly happened when where and why, did you? And that's the simple difference here that you completely and conveniently ignore.

 

It has been said previously that not all players know jumping can cause problems, and it's been well explained why that is the case. So, while you're busy having a chuckle because you can enter cheatcodes (and nobody's surprised you can, so why even bring it up?), Imma put that a script in maps that gives out a warning message, and when some rando tells me they got stuck in a place they shouldn't even think about reaching in the first place, or a sequence in a script broke, I'll have myself a real good laugh, and simply reply with "told ya", by which I mean I do indeed have the last laugh in this argument, whether you like it or not.

[dpJudas]

2 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

because it seems there's a problem with your attention span

As far as I'm concerned, there's already a solution to the original problem this entire thread is about (there's a MAPINFO entry that prevents jumping per default, or something like that since most mods I try stops jump from doing anything). Clearly that wasn't enough for someone, and then you double down by talking about having to play your mods your way or the highway.

 

And yes, you can write a text message if you want - hell, go ahead and write it with big fat letters, too. Only thing you'll gain is that if someone does like to force jump you'll annoy them with your stupid message and accordingly risk a less favorable review if it annoys them enough.

[Marcaek]

Quote

but of the obvious easy things to do that I do with a lot of user mods:

 

1) IDKFA

2) IDDQD

3) IDCLIP

4) resurrect

5) give health

6) give armor

7) give ammo

8) map <next map number>

9) kill archvile

 

All very useful tools against mappers that have a different idea of what a fun map is about,

 

so what you're saying here is you rarely actually play the game

[dpJudas]

1 minute ago, Marcaek said:

so what you're saying here is you rarely actually play the game

Hehe, that's a matter of perspective. The save scumming way I see on most streams where they continue a 3% health save and just wait for the dices to roll their way until they reach the next health pack could be argued to be avoiding the game just as much. ;)

[Spectre01]

1 hour ago, dpJudas said:

Or they spawn archviles in ways that guarantee I die the first time, and since I don't save and think its crappy gameplay whenever something just has to be known, well..

I never got the whole not using saves while playing casually and obviously disliking difficult gameplay. Normally, playing without saves is a way to make maps you're familiar with more challenging or because you enjoy the tension of losing progress going through a new map.

[dpJudas]

3 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

I never got the whole not using saves while playing casually and obviously disliking difficult gameplay. Normally, playing without saves is a way to make maps you're familiar with more challenging or because you enjoy the tension of losing progress going through a new map.

Loading a savegame ruins the flow I enjoy from playing shooters, which is why I don't use the non-cheating way.

 

I normally prefer playing things at a difficulty level where I do not die. For the vanilla maps that means I can play them all on HMP, and the maps I know at UV without ever getting close to dieing. For community maps difficult levels are all over the map.

[Graf Zahl]

dpJudas has a point. Back in the 90s it was possible most of the time to play through a level without cheating, without saving and without knowledge of how the map works.

 

These days I have a hard time finding modern levels that don't either have

 

- traps where you need to know the trap beforehand to avoid it (the main reason why I save so often when playing maps for the first time)

- spam the map with a ridiculous amount of Revenants.

- have a constant shortage of ammo (no, it's not fun dealing with large packs of monsters and only one weapon that can be used - most likely the least effective ones against the chosen monsters.)

 

Regarding the Revenants, the most frequent cheat I use is a little Dehacked patch that disables the homing of their missiles.

Many modern mods have virtually become unplayable without such a countermeasure. Not everybody has perfect reflexes to deal with those things. I surely don't.

 

So the bottom line is: If a map is well balanced, the players won't cheat. If the players feel the need to cheat there's most likely something wrong with a map.

But implementing cheating countermeasures in a mod is just lame form of control obsession - unfortunately this is a trait that seems to be quite common, judging from some of the feature requests I got over the years.

But here's the thing: If you implement cheating countermeasures you not only incur the wrath of the compulsive cheaters but of all the people who activate cheats trying to check out the map without actually wanting to play it - and that will most certainly result in negative reviews!

[Nine Inch Heels]

22 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Not everybody has perfect reflexes to deal with those things. I surely don't.

Evidently you've figured out what the problem is, entirely on your own even. Seems the solution is pretty simple as well. But why learn something when instead you can just nerf it, right?

 

22 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

So the bottom line is: If a map is well balanced, the players won't cheat.

Let me repeat it yet another time. You beating a map on the first try blind is not an objective standard for what's a "well balanced" map. In fact, I'd comfortably bet a month's worth of income that maps you can do first try blind are something decent players play on less than 10 brain cells while struggling to keep themselves awake.

[Edward850]

[dpJudas]

Okay I'm out of this discussion - we apparently reached the "git gud" level of argumentation now.

[dew]

6 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

Okay I'm out of this discussion - we apparently reached the "git gud" level of argumentation now.

Well, after reading that you scoff at saveloading, but you cheat in every other imaginable way instead, and after graf describing how he mangles the game's behaviour not to resemble Doom anymore... what did you expect? He will hardcode a bypass for this later, so arguing in this thread was just a waste of time anyway!

[dpJudas]

Read between the lines. As Graf already hinted, I only cheat when the map designers failed to give me a proper difficulty level. But hey, I guess I just need to get goood! That I can clear the original Doom game on UV with generally 150+ health isn't a sign something else might be wrong, no no.

[Nine Inch Heels]

Just now, dpJudas said:

But hey, I guess I just need to get goood! That I can clear the original Doom game on UV with generally 150+ health isn't a sign something else might be wrong, no no.

Imagine actually thinking that beating og doom on UV meant anything after +25 years of community mapping.

[dpJudas]

As I said, we reached the level of "git gud". Your definition of good gameplay clearly does not match mine. Let's just keep it at that. I like games where I can play them without constantly loading.

[Jimmy]

If you're not enjoying the way a map plays, then play on a lower difficulty level or start saving more often.

 

All the tools to cater the experience to your own personal needs and wants have been there since the very beginning.

 

Don't deliberately break our maps with mods or cheats just because you die in them a few times.

 

Please.

 

Please just play maps the way they're intended to be played I'm begging you.

[dpJudas]

Sorry Jimmy, I'll play your map any way I want to. Just like some people here use my software in ways I don't like either. Quite fascinated tbh how obsessed you guys seem to be about how others play your stuff.

 

In any case, I don't think we will gain more from this. This really will be my last post in this thread.

[Nine Inch Heels]

15 minutes ago, dpJudas said:

I only cheat when the map designers failed to give me a proper difficulty level.

Says the guy who doesn't even use difficulty settings:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1832131

 

 

 

[Edward850]

"I just use cheats all the time" followed by "why is everyone telling me to git gud? I'm leaving!"
This has to be the single most strangest sequence of posts thus far in 2019. Just the sheer lack of self-awareness...

[anotak]

i'm actually completely supportive of people playing with cheats for the record

[dpJudas]

1 minute ago, Edward850 said:

"I just use cheats all the time" followed by "why is everyone telling me to git gud? I'm leaving!"
This has to be the single most strangest sequence of posts thus far in 2019. Just the sheer lack of self-awareness...

Coming from the guy that posted a mocking picture of Graf. Right.

[Noiser]

1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

Regarding the Revenants, the most frequent cheat I use is a little Dehacked patch that disables the homing of their missiles.

[CyberDreams]

Just my two cents from a non-mapper: The few things that really urk me are when people break maps by using freelook (yes i do think that freelook can break a map if it wasn't designed withit in mind) as well as jumping/crouching so this is sort of a neat idea even though i really don't understand anything about zscripting or mapping in general. 

 

I do know that once you release a map that people will usually play it anyway they want too which is sort of a shame really as i think it should be played the way it was intended to be played. If you are the type of person who likes to go nuts and add tons of mods then at the very least play through the map/maps at least once in their intended way and then add all the mods that you want to afterwords (aka go nuts). Just don't bitch about how easy/hard the maps were while you weren't playing them in their intended way or complain about bugs that you encountered along the way either.

 

Anyway's that's my two cents on this whole thing. Carry on.

 

 

 

 

[Zakken]

This is super useful code! This would be great for the inevitable situations when I try to make non-Doom-savvy friends play through future notable WADs, so I don't have to painstakingly warn them not to mess with some gameplay options.

 

Perhaps the best feature to be added for future GZDoom versions in this case scenario would be the ability to lock certain gameplay settings behind sv_cheats (meaning you can't change them unless you are deliberately turning cheats on), extending them beyond just jumping or crouching...

[anotak]

oh, another thing i'd like to point out. a lot of people mention that the settings resetting means that people have to intend to break things with it. but, we have direct evidence that's not the case, as stated before.

as mentioned it saves in savegames. i wonder if people are noticing just that it's resetting at non obvious times and people might assume that the resetting is a bug? this hypothesis would explain some of the behavior from users.

 

edit:

anyway i'm gonna probably make another few variants on the wad with slightly different permissive behavior based on some suggestions i've received.

 

also, i've received 2 different direct messages asking how to credit me, and the answer is just merely "anotak", lowercase preferred. I'm also okay with not being credited at all in this particular case. i will edit the OP to clarify

[Gez]

2 minutes ago, anotak said:

as mentioned it saves in savegames.

do they forget that they tried to jump, that they didn't jump, that they then went to the gameplay setting menu, forced jumps to be allowed, and then continued playing?

 

or do they get the map along with a save with the setting already changed so that they're not aware it happened?

[anotak]

Just now, Gez said:

do they forget that they tried to jump, that they didn't jump, that they then went to the gameplay setting menu, forced jumps to be allowed, and then continued playing?

 

i think this is fairly likely and a fairly reasonable thing for a player to do if they dont know why it happened, yes.

[TechnoDoomed1]

I think it all boils down to who should have the last say in how mods/maps are played: the modder/mapper in question, by having the ability to entirely shutdown whatever they might not like; or the player, by having the ability to load any other mods along with it, use cheats, or in general doing whatever the heck they want during gameplay. It's pretty obvious there's a divide in here. I mean, I totally understand that mappers want others to play their experience as how they originally intended. It's only natural. But to get angry because others aren't, and trying to implement more stringent measures to keep more control over your own creation... is just being an asshole at best. Oh, having fun in a way I don't like? Nope, fun police here. No cheats allowed. No jumping. No mouselook. How dare you do what you want in a way that really impacts no one negatively? It's my creation, I have the ultimate say! You are absolutely no one to dictate how others get to enjoy ANYTHING, specially if it doesn't directly impact you whatsoever. 

 

You have no business policing others' enjoyment, no matter how much you disagree with how they enjoy things.

 

The amount of entitlement in this thread, ranging from "fuck you, I can map to force you to do as I please" or "lol, you guys are bad, git gud" to "people should first play original Doom with all its limitations and quirks just as it was designed" is just very showing. Maybe none of those players want to do that, and you don't get to have the ability to force them. Too limiting? They might use another port/mapset, or get their way all the same with that port/mapset. Who do you think you are to force others to do as you want to start with? And who are you even kidding? If they really want, a sizeable portion will get rid of your block, by either doing it themselves or asking for help to do so. Please, stop pretending you have control over your own creations: that's just a delusion. Any random can (and in most cases already has without you even knowing) do things you didn't originally intent with your content, and as long as it's as harmless as cheating or jumping, and not trying to claim ownership of your mods or upload a modded version without your consent, all you do is come across as control freaks that try to impose things on other people. I don't care who you are. It doesn't matter if you're the best mapper, the best speedrunner, or the best player. That doesn't give you any leverage to dictate how I, or anyone else for that matter, get to enjoy any media.

 

Let's not forget that someone already used the version of the mod that thoroughly forbids players to use an aspect of gameplay. This is not hypothetical case scenarios. People are really trying to police others and deny them options, even when more appropiate options were suggested or directly available!

Edited June 2, 2019 by TechnoDoomed1