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anotak

For mappers: Zscript to force disable jumping and crouching

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I remember when jumping was first added to a port. Back then, 100% of the maps out there were not designed for jumping. But the feature was added anyway because people liked the added freedom it gave them, much like freelook, and crouching, and flying. And some later maps and mods were made with these things  in mind.

 

I can understand when a mapper has a particular experience in mind, and signals "this isn't designed for jumping".  Some players are not going to enjoy your map with any constraint, thats just the way it is. Rather than an increasing arms race to stop players doing what they want on their own computer, why not take some pleasure in knowing that, whilst not the intended experience, some players you wouldn't otherwise reach are getting *something* out of your art?

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3 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Imagine actually thinking that beating og doom on UV meant anything after +25 years of community mapping.

 

The mistake you are making is assuming that the style of maps you are talking about are the entirety of the legit experience, or that other takes aren't "valid" today. The difficulty level of some of these modern map sets isn't an inevitable end point of 25 years of evolution, with other gameplay styles relegated to history. doom can be a broad church, but some folks are dismissing experiences outside their own wheelhouse. 

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Posted (edited)

From the amount of people that are unwilling to read text files regarding simple instructions like "don't start on UV for the first playthrough," even to the point that well known mappers like Ribbiks will release a wad without a UV mode in the initial version, it's about time mappers got a better means of at least letting players know in-game what their intentions are for their maps, especially for something like jumping that a lot of players like to do, but players simply cannot have any idea where the mappers has chosen to put certain linedef triggers, particularly when a lot of mappers use subtle triggers that work in conjunction with other triggers, and this certainly includes repeatable actions. Those little choke points where jumping can get you over a small ledge to avoid backtracking are also perfect houses for mandatory and hidden triggers. Would be nice to have a similar mod for difficulty settings, though that is far less cut and dry than something which is obviously a cheat, yet not treated as such.

 

I will note that the death of the author is a big thing wrt any creative persuit, especially those where the product is something used by another, such as a wad being played for entertainment by another. I don't think anybody has a problem with informed people ultimately playing a map the way they want to, but these countermeasures (which are very, very, easily changed by the informed doomer) are intended to protect the average gamer that isn't a doom nerd and doesn't know what the real differences between source ports are from breaking levels and flooding the internet with false bug reports and bad reviews brought on by not understanding how doom works. We shouldn't take our own knowledge for granted. Also, it's like 2019 and most games don't even come with physical manuals anymore as most people don't even bother to read them, much like text files. Maybe it's about time the doom community upgraded our own approach by putting things into the engine for players to see directly in front of their face in-game as opposed to hiding all relevant info inside a file nobody that this applies to will read.

 

Again, while im not anotak and cannot state their intentions with this, its pretty clear that this obviously isnt meant to prevent informed doomers from playing wads the way they want to; doom is far too easy to mod for that anyway. Most of the people in this thread are well informed Doomers to which this really doesn't apply anyway, so there's no need to get all in a huff about a mapper not letting you play how you want. This doesn't apply to you; you clearly know what's going on. Then again the fact that most people are and will be too lazy to remove a simple piece of code from a wad is telling enough for how important and useful this mod is, as shown by techno's uninformed posts regarding the """fix""" for this mod that was posted by phantombeta. This mod is just another level of security to make sure that players are making informed decisions about what and how they play, as it is ultimately up to them to make their own fun.

 

5 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Not everybody has perfect reflexes to deal with those things. I surely don't.

 

I don't want to dogpile your post and I respect the work you put into this community, even going as far as to make a prboom+ fork to help bring about some progressive change to the older/closer-to-vanilla map formats, but a lot of times it's about playing smarter, not harder. A good approach/strategy/route will make most well-designed encounters a matter of course rather than an exercise in reflexes and rng. Revenants are one of the easiest enemies to deal with for well-equipped players (read: ssg or better) and a small few rockets with absolutely rip through any tightly packed horde of revs before they have time to launch more than a few missiles anyway. 

 

An unrelated point, it's ironic that what is typically called "revenant spam" (using large groups of tightly packed revs) is far less meaningful and far easier to dispatch than simply using revs one or a small few at a time, but spread out across a map.

 

@TechnoDoomed1 Your post is heavily strawmanned and creates a false dichotomy of what the real situation is. I suggest you take more time to learn the community and ports better.

Edited by Fonze

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yes, i am all for well-informed users making their own choices, and i always have been.

 

cruically, you can not have user freedom if the user does not understand their choices.

 

i just believe in putting up warning signs and guard rails. i believe that "human error" is generally actually "system error", and systems should be designed to assume that humans will err.

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from what I read on the first page, all this essentially does is make an Occam's Razor fix to the engine. If a player wants to jump in GZDoom, let him/her. Don't limit/control the player, because all that will do is have people say "If he's gonna make this type of zscript, and implement this in future wad, then it won't be worth my time playing @anotak wad ever"

Hell, take it from people like @Batandy, the author of Golden Souls 1 and 2, @Jimmy the Joyful mapper, and such. They would suggest not limiting the player. There is a reason @Linguica got John Carmack to release the source code for Doom: EXPERIMENTATION, and this "fix" or yours is the type of experimentation that is not going to bode well in response by many people.

Protip: If you limit game functions, you limit the player, which will net you negative feedback. I suggest you not implement any of this in the future.

~ MEANOR

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Posted (edited)

@Fonze My beef is that while I know what to do, others might not, and yet people are seriously considering being able to dictate how those other people play when they already have to go through menus to get their preferred way of playing back. When people consider forcing others their way, then yes, I do have a problem with that. If it wasn't for phantombeta releasing the countermeasure, I would've done something similar, just with a different approach. But I'm glad he did, as it shows I'm not alone in my sentiment anyways.

 

36 minutes ago, Fonze said:

This mod is just another level of security to make sure that players are making informed decisions about what and how they play, as it is ultimately up to them to make their own fun.

 

Just with the version of the mod that comes with a warning. The other version just flat out stops you, no warning except "Jumping is disabled" or "Crouching is disabled" in the log. And it has already been implemented at least once.

 

36 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Your post is heavily strawmanned and creates a false dichotomy of what the real situation is. I suggest you take more time to learn the community and ports better.

 

I know the difference between ports, and it changes nothing regarding my posts. In fact, as someone already pointed out, this only currently stops GZDoom users. Zandronum users got scotch free, at least until they get ZScript support in a stable release. As for the community... I've been around for 10 years watching events unfold without getting involved. And there's been already many times when there has been a dichotomy regarding (G)ZDoom vs other ports, or modern features vs vanilla/boom features. This just seems more of the same, with an added twist of wanting complete control over one's creations, even if it means foregoing of players' control. I also know that several people here seem to hold a grudge with Graf Zhal because he is usually rude and doesn't care about vanilla or Boom accuracy, which most people here seem to have a hardon for. Even when that's what has allowed the port to grow and evolve, becoming the most used source port. Also, I know that anotak and him have had a bad relationship in the past for Graf's mean and undeserved comments about anotak's work that won him a Cacoward.

 

26 minutes ago, anotak said:

yes, i am all for well-informed users making their own choices, and i always have been.

 

cruically, you can not have user freedom if the user does not understand their choices.

 

I'm all for that. But there's a difference between warning, and flat out controlling the player's actions. I approve of the permissive form of the mod that warns people, and lets them have control back. We can argue about the best implementation of that idea, but the idea is sound nonetheless. With the other version, however, I completely disagree. I find it untasteful and controlling, and I'll fight it so that non-knowledgeable users can play as they please with just a fair warning.

 

Fonze is right, we shouldn't take our knowledge for granted. That's why I'm so against this and want to help others not have to put through this bullshit, even if it means going directly against the creator's wishes. I'm privileged for my modding knowledge, but others won't be so much, and they deserve to have fun however they like too.

Edited by TechnoDoomed1

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

stuff

It seems like you have some pathological problems with "being forced" to do something. So guess what: You don't even need to play videogames anymore. Just set a huge sandbox on debug mode and be happy with it. Games are made of restrictions. All of them will "force you" to do something. There is no point to be so vicious against the ones setting the rules, since they are the ones carefully designing what you are playing. That's what I think at least.

Edited by Noiser

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Posted (edited)

Games are one thing, and mods/mapsets are another. And even then, things like Cheat Engine exist. Or mods if you find one that does what you want. That's why moddable games have such a long lifespan. People like to change and customize things, and play how they want to. So yeah, I don't like it when people try to force things on me, or onto others. Nobody likes being controlled.

 

This isn't a usual restriction anyhow. This is going outside of normal means to force something onto people that aren't as fortunate to have the same modding knowledge, which most don't because they have a busy life and modding usually requires quite a time investment.

 

For the record, I don't find sandbox games entertaining. A cohesive vision of gameplay, and typical gameplay restrictions are fine by me. There are absolute masterpieces in this community that I personally find perfect as they are. Both mods and mapsets.

Edited by TechnoDoomed1

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When will people finaly grow up from this "But we do this for their convenience, for their security, we're protecting them from their own mistakes" mentality.

It has been tried countless of times in many aspects of human life and it was always a disaster. Human is a self-concious being, fully responsible for his actions. There can warnings, there can be information messages, but there can't be hard limits.

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8 minutes ago, Mr. Meanor said:

Hell, take it from people like Batandy, the author of Golden Souls 1 and 2, Jimmy the Joyful mapper, and such. They would suggest not limiting the player.

 

You mean this Jimmy? 

 

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

If you're not enjoying the way a map plays, then play on a lower difficulty level or start saving more often.

 

All the tools to cater the experience to your own personal needs and wants have been there since the very beginning.

 

Don't deliberately break our maps with mods or cheats just because you die in them a few times.

 

Please.

 

Please just play maps the way they're intended to be played I'm begging you.

 

If so, it sounds like he wants players to not break his maps, but I can't speak for him. I can speak for myself, however, and state that I don't really want people to play my maps if they aren't going to enjoy them. Go plkay something else that you will enjoy because playing one of my maps is a waste of your time and on occasion, mine too.

 

12 minutes ago, Mr. Meanor said:

Protip: If you limit game functions, you limit the player, which will net you negative feedback. I suggest you not implement any of this in the future.

 

Protip: if your map doesnt receive negative feedback then its probably not something I'd care to play.

 

13 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

My beef is that while I know what to do,

 

So since you know so much, this obviously doesn't apply to you in the slightest. Stop taking your own knowledge for granted.

 

13 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

When people consider force others their way, then yes, I do have a problem with that.

 

That's an awfully large soapbox for your whiteknighting; do you ever get vertigo being that far in the clouds?

 

15 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

phantombeta releasing the countermeasure

 

He said himself it was a: 

Quote

Phantombeta said:

gross hack

to call it a countermeasure seems a bit... dishonest.

 

18 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

Just with the version of the mod that comes with a warning. The other version just flat out stops you, no warning except "Jumping is disabled" or "Crouching is disabled" in the log. And it has already been implemented at least once.

 

Well it was made to be implemented; what's wrong with that? I intend to implement it too for my future maps. Yay for choices! Thanks to anotak for releasing multiple versions of this so mappers can choose just how much protection they need. Personally I like the bareskin variety but I can totally understand why somebody would want lamb skin. And to think that before all mappers could do was force disable it through mapinfo... now we can choose varying degrees.

 

Seriously though you've incorporated so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt into your posts that I've become convinced to put on my tin foil hat to avoid the doominati mind controlling me into a sheeple. Like take a step back and remember your own point; you (and any other player) can delete this mod from any wad you wish to play! Truthfully you don't even need the hack phantombeta posted.

 

26 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

I know the difference between ports,

 

Your previous posts suggest otherwise.

 

26 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

This just seems more of the same, with an added twist of wanting complete control over one's creations

 

You mean like how mapinfo was originally designed, right?

 

28 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

I'm all for that. But there's a difference between warning, and flat out controlling the player's actions. I approve of the permissive form of the mod that warns people, and lets them have control back. We can argue about the best implementation of that idea, but the idea is sound nonetheless. With the other version, however, I completely disagree. I find it untasteful and controlling, and I'll fight it so that non-knowledgeable users can play as they please with just a fair warning.

 

Honestly a well-informed doomer such as yourself should have no problems simply opening a wad with this mod in slade and removing the mod.

 

Just now, Youda said:

When will people finaly grow up from this "But we do this for their convenience, for their security, we're protecting them from their own mistakes" mentality.

It has been tried countless of times in many aspects of human life and it was always a disaster. Human is a self-concious being, fully responsible for his actions. There can warnings, there can be information messages, but there can't be hard limits.

 

Well yeah I mean when have laws against stealing, destruction of property, or murder ever worked, right? 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Youda said:

When will people finaly grow up from this "But we do this for their convenience, for their security, we're protecting them from their own mistakes" mentality.

It has been tried countless of times in many aspects of human life and it was always a disaster. Human is a self-concious being, fully responsible for his actions. There can warnings, there can be information messages, but there can't be hard limits.


There will always be hard limits. The engine you are using have hard limits. All games have a right amount of limits or they will not work as games.

Edited by Noiser

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Well yeah I mean when have laws against stealing, destruction of property, or murder ever worked, right? 

 

Comparing being able to jump in a mod/map to literally stealing, destruction of property or murder. Totally on point, of course. And you talk about strawmanning? Shame on you.

 

33 minutes ago, Fonze said:

That's an awfully large soapbox for your whiteknighting; do you ever get vertigo being that far in the clouds?

 

No, I don't, because it's incredibly easy to just circumvent. Whiteknighting what is going to just eventually happen by itself is a very easy position to hold. If it even is whiteknighting at all to just want something you'd appreciate others to have too as an option (in this case: jumping/cheating/freelook, anything really). I guess jump forbidding mappers are whiteknighting their approach too?

 

33 minutes ago, Fonze said:

you (and any other player) can delete this mod from any wad you wish to play! Truthfully you don't even need the hack phantombeta posted.

 

I don't need it. Others will. It's good it exists, but if people still couldn't find its way to it, or countermeasures would develop against such a fix/countermeasure/hack (call it as you please, really), then another fix/countermeasure/hack would pop out. Maybe even modded versions of those mods would pop out without their creator's consent, even if I don't agree with that methodology. Mappers that want this are on a loser's track anyhow, because their wishes are not going to be respected.

Edited by TechnoDoomed1

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Just now, Fonze said:

Well yeah I mean when have laws against stealing, destruction of property, or murder ever worked, right? 

Those laws are needed because all those actions affect somebody else in a negative way.

There is no law forbidding me throw all my money into a sewer, because nobody else than me is affected.

 

Tell me how it harms anyone else that i break my own gameplay experience by jumping.

If it was in a multiplayer, where there was a secret place with some super-weapon and that place was supposed to be accessible only once per 10 minutes, and i bypassed that restriction by jumping, now that would be reasonable to make every effort to make that not possible, because i would be cheating on every other player in the server ruining their game experience. But in single player?

Maybe next time you wanna create a script that disables cheats even after sv_cheats 1 ?

Or create a dynamic invisible barrier that will protect me from running into Cyberdemon's rocket?

 

Everyone has a freedom to make mistakes and ruin their game however they want, as long as it doesn't harm somebody else.

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Personally I believe a middle ground should be pursued. I believe that there should be some indicator (like a message on the screen at the start of the first map) that tells the player how to play the map (i.e what settings to use like disable jumping/crouching and use Doom Strict).

 

Then its up to the player to play it how they want. For example, I know that jumping breaks vanilla doom 2 maps but sometimes I just like to goof around those map by using jumping and crouching.

 

With this method, there are no restrictions on informed players and at the same time, the uninformed players will stop bothering mappers as they won't have any excuse after seeing the message about how to play the mapset.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Personally I believe a middle ground should be pursued. I believe that there should be some indicator (like a message on the screen at the start of the first map) that tells the player how to play the map (i.e what settings to use like disable jumping/crouching and use Doom Strict).

 

Then its up to the player to play it how they want. For example, I know that jumping breaks vanilla doom 2 maps but sometimes I just like to goof around those map by using jumping and crouching.

 

With this method, there are no restrictions on informed players and at the same time, the uninformed players will stop bothering mappers as they won't have any excuse after seeing the message about how to play the mapset.

 

This is really the best approach.

Edited by TechnoDoomed1

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

Comparing being able to jump in a mod/map to literally stealing, destruction of property or murder. Totally on point, of course. And you talk about strawmanning? Shame on you.

 

I only compared it to something in the real world because the quote I addressed did the same thing. Note that a simple analogy is not directly likening something to what it is compared to. I was directly rebutting this specific point:

 

56 minutes ago, Youda said:

It has been tried countless of times in many aspects of human life and it was always a disaster.

 

I could have compared it to many other things but they would have likely become politicized so I chose examples which politics do not play a part. If my examples were that far off base then that would be my mistake, but I couldn't think of any more pertinent examples than to point out some of the most basic, non-political human laws.

 

37 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

fix/countermeasure/hack (call it as you please, really),

 

Oh I was just calling it what the author had called it; personally I would call it a mod.

 

37 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

Mappers that want this are on a loser's track anyhow, because their wishes are not going to be respected.

 

Honestly I don't think anybody really cares about mappers' wishes being respected so much as preventing uninformed players from unknowingly playing a map with cheats and then reporting false bugs, which is a real thing that happens. I'm pretty sure most mappers become intimately familiar with the 'death of the author' concept by the time they publicly release their first map. For some reason though your posts seemed to be filled with immense levels of FUD over this simple mod, which is ultimately no different than any other mod mappers put into their works, nor different at all to how mapinfo was before the ability to override it in-game for players came about.

 

Also, by this same logic from the quote above from you, that would apply to any mod that a mapper has placed into their wad, such as TheCastle's Redemption of the Slain (if I'm remembering that name correctly) requiring brutal doom to be played correctly. Still, as stated by anotak, simply loading a mod which alters playerclass after this will circumvent any restriction.

 

37 minutes ago, TechnoDoomed1 said:

countermeasures would develop against such a fix/countermeasure/hack (call it as you please, really), then another fix/countermeasure/hack would pop out.

 

Slippery slopes are slippery, but not a viable means for meaningful discussion. And if an arms race did begin wouldn't that just be a symptom of a deeper underlying problem?

 

So I'll be actually serious here for a second: with the disparity between players and mappers, where most players don't even bother to read the pertinent information the mapper puts out with their wad in both an OP and a text file, how do you suggest fixing the issue?

 

@Youda I agree on those points, but this mod was made with the stated intent of preventing uninformed people from unintentionally breaking maps and making false bug reports on or giving bad reviews for them as a direct result of the player's mistakes, which does affect the map/mapper to a degree.

Edited by Fonze

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1 hour ago, Mr. Meanor said:

Hell, take it from people like @Batandy, the author of Golden Souls 1 and 2, @Jimmy the Joyful mapper, and such. They would suggest not limiting the player.

Okily-dokily-do, neighborino! Let's listen to them and put this argument to rest!

 

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

If you're not enjoying the way a map plays, then play on a lower difficulty level or start saving more often.

 

All the tools to cater the experience to your own personal needs and wants have been there since the very beginning.

 

Don't deliberately break our maps with mods or cheats just because you die in them a few times.

 

Please.

 

Please just play maps the way they're intended to be played I'm begging you.

...ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Fonze said:

So I'll be actually serious here for a second: with the disparity between players and mappers, where most players don't even bother to read the pertinent information the mapper puts out with their wad in both an OP and a text file, how do you suggest fixing the issue?

 

By incorporating messages warning people, either in-engine, or as anotak did in his mod's permissive version. Informing is the way to go, whilst forbidding isn't.

 

EDIT: By incorporating messages I don't mean in a .txt, since most people don't read those. I refer to messages that happen at map start (which I feel would be most non-intrusive), or during gameplay if they jump, letting them know the map wasn't designed for it. Something like "This map isn't designed with jumping/crouching capabilities in mind. Doing so may lead you to an inescapable situation. Proceed at your own risk". That's all that's needed. No stopping people, just saying: hey, if you do this, it might be bad. If you still do so, it's your fault.

Edited by TechnoDoomed1

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7 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Regarding the Revenants, the most frequent cheat I use is a little Dehacked patch that disables the homing of their missiles.

Many modern mods have virtually become unplayable without such a countermeasure. Not everybody has perfect reflexes to deal with those things. I surely don't.

You cannot be serious, right? It legitimately concerns me that the guy who insists on being responsible for the community's most popular source port has this much derision for some of the game's most fundamental qualities. Absolutely just fuck off with this.

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3 minutes ago, an_mutt said:

 It legitimately concerns me that the guy who insists on being responsible for the community's most popular source port 

 

He doesn't. It's his port, the community make their choices. He insists on nothing and he can play the game any way he pleases. 

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Jeebus fukken crust... I thought this was an internet forum about Doom, not a kindergarten.

Apparently I was wrong. :|

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3 hours ago, Jon said:

The mistake you are making is assuming that the style of maps you are talking about are the entirety of the legit experience, or that other takes aren't "valid" today. The difficulty level of some of these modern map sets isn't an inevitable end point of 25 years of evolution, with other gameplay styles relegated to history. doom can be a broad church, but some folks are dismissing experiences outside their own wheelhouse. 

It seems to me you're missing the mark there. Not only does the person I adressed not even care about difficulty settings even though they exist (usually), but the "dismissing experiences" part of your post applies to them much more than it applies to me. At least I'm not so naive as to think that since the pioneering days of FPSs nothing has (or could have) changed at all.

 

And don't get me started on DPjudas's attempt to frame anything that strays from og Doom's difficulty as "something else might be wrong":
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1994049

Especially when the "metric" in question is "I can usually do that on UV with +150% health left", as if that was in any way objective. What they're saying there is that any map that isn't suited for casual play "might be done wrong" (paraphrased), and in so doing they're the ones who are looking to make anything outside their "comfort zone" seem "invalid".

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9 minutes ago, phantombeta said:

Jeebus fukken crust... I thought this was an internet forum about Doom, not a kindergarten.

Apparently I was wrong. :|

 

You had expectations of a public forum on the internet.

 

It's one of the classic blunders.

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For what it's worth this thread inspired me to make a map

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So two questions on this...

 

The mod displays messages to both the center and top left corner of the screen for me. Is this normal? And if so is there a way to tweak it so the messages display in only one of those locations? Second, I tried this out with Heretic and it seems to prevent the player from using any weapons (I assume something to do with the custom player class?). Will there be a Heretic-compatible version?

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11 hours ago, Ryath said:

So two questions on this...

 

The mod displays messages to both the center and top left corner of the screen for me. Is this normal? And if so is there a way to tweak it so the messages display in only one of those locations? Second, I tried this out with Heretic and it seems to prevent the player from using any weapons (I assume something to do with the custom player class?). Will there be a Heretic-compatible version?

i can look into that when i get a chance, been sick today.

 

i think you might just have to change the "doomplayer" in the zscript and decorate lumps to whatever the heretic player class is, it should be on the zdoom wiki or in the gzdoom.pk3

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14 hours ago, Ryath said:

The mod displays messages to both the center and top left corner of the screen for me. Is this normal?

 

Yes. The center screen message is from hudmessage; the top screen one a separate log message that remains in your console (just like pickup messages and the like). You can remove the log version, but then your player cannot look up what the hudmessage said if he missed to read it on time for whatever reason.

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On 6/2/2019 at 4:04 AM, Mr. Meanor said:

@Linguica got John Carmack to release the source code for Doom

 

wrong

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