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Duke of Pathoris

Heaven in Doom Eternal

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1 hour ago, whirledtsar said:

I hope heaven is not evil in DE, because that would be a quite bleak world, one where there is a Christian hell yet no (Christian, good) heaven. And if it isn't actually Christian hell, well that would be disappointing, because part of Doom's uniqueness is that you're LITERALLY fighting demons from hell, not evil aliens or otherworldly creatures.

Same here. I'm really surprised they actually decided to use the word "heaven" at all. As a Christian I have no problems slaughtering demons or maybe even confront fallen angels. Attacking heaven in general would kid of ruin the game for me. I would have preferred if they stick to the more abstract term "Maykrs".

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, dsm said:

I like to think that all those religions are more like myths that have evolved and diluted by Humans over time, because that's what Humans usually do with any story given enough time; it doesn't necessarily paint the "true" picture of what Hell and Heaven really is, but is more a collection of ideas from lots of people.

 

Still, my point from before stands; If there's a purely evil realm that corrupts anything it touches like a cancer (Hell), then it'd be nice if there was an opposite realm that isn't comprised of complete assholes, since Hell already got the whole "asshole angle" rather solidly covered (and aside from Hell, we've got Humanity, and we Humans are, sadly, pretty good at being assholes towards one another as is).

 

Doesn't have to stay true to the whole Christian/Judaeism Heaven thing. On that note, I do like the idea of Angels being all high-tech as it's a nice juxtaposition to the Hell theme and it looks cleaner and smoother than the UAC base theme.

 

The actions of Heaven might be justified. You might argue that Hayden and UAC/Olivia are to blame but normal, every-day people are to blame too for enabling their actions and allowing the way of thinking to thrive. Even if you look past the weird hell energy thing, the UAC has 7 week work days and treats their employees like cannon fodder. People work at the UAC, use their energy, thus enabling them. It says something about the moral character of people of that century. Reminds me of stories like Sodom and Gommorah.

 

I really hope that angel explores this angle and it's not just Malthael 2.0.

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I assume wrath of the heavens is oh no Doomguy is sent from space to kill us all. Maybe that means Mars sent more demons from space?

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Posted (edited)

I'm guessing we're getting a gnostic/anti-theistic/NO GODS NO MASTERS IN GRIND WE CRUST vibe here.

 

Let's be real, to fully channel that OG Doom "fuck society" vibe, killing demons isn't enough. We should be killing angels!

And let's be real. If killing angels is going to offend you, you picked the wrong franchise to enjoy.

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11 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

I'm guessing we're getting a gnostic/anti-theistic/NO GODS NO MASTERS IN GRIND WE CRUST vibe here.

 

Let's be real, to fully channel that OG Doom "fuck society" vibe, killing demons isn't enough. We should be killing angels!

And let's be real. If killing angels is going to offend you, you picked the wrong franchise to enjoy.

 

That works too!

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Angels revealing themselves to humanity just to be demons 2.0 would still be stupid writing. But that's nothing new for doom's story.

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55 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

I'm guessing we're getting a gnostic/anti-theistic/NO GODS NO MASTERS IN GRIND WE CRUST vibe here.

This is exactly the attitude that was predicted 2,000 years ago in the Book of Revelation ;)

 

31 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Angels revealing themselves to humanity just to be demons 2.0 would still be stupid writing. But that's nothing new for doom's story.

Right now I don't think id Software has to do that. For me the evil looking angel from the mural could be based on the idea of Lucifer. A fallen angel who condemns mankind (as seen in Book of Job) and looks for every possible reason to release suffering and judgement. After Argent D'Nur has been corrupted it was given to Hell, now Earth is corrupted (by Samuel Haydn? which means "the heathen requested from god") and will be given to Hell too. Thats not a victory for the Maykrs, it's only a victory for Hell which itself is tormented by the Doom Slayer.

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Mind you, in the original context there's no Lucifer in Job. It's just (one of the) God(s) telling a divine servant/lesser god/angel/demon/something to fuck Job's shit up for his/their own agenda. Before the Bible was written down the Hebrews had a pantheon that was copied 1:1 from Sumerian mythology, and they had no need for some godlike evil entity that was still weaker than God - since they had a pantheon and you don't run into power balance issues regarding evil (the problem of evil) in a pantheon.

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I really hope they don't go down the "Heaven is run by assholes too" road. As @Pegg said, that would be super lazy, and it's been done to death in literally every single other setting that deals with demonic invasions. I said before on another thread that I feel like it invalidates the whole purpose of opposing Hell, or even Hayden. If the "Good guys" are just as bad no matter which way you look, then why bother fighting the forces of Hell to begin with? In this case, Earth is super corrupt, Hell is evil, and then...Heaven is full of assholes? Seems like the best thing to do in that case is just grab popcorn and watch everyone go at it, as no one is worth fighting for anymore... 

 

Having said that, rogue angel going way too far in the war would be fine. That would at least not say everyone on the other side deserves as solid an ass kicking... 

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I don't think it's gonna turn out that Heaven is also ruled by bad guys, some gut feeling tells me that the situation with Heaven is one that it will simply result in them and Doomguy being in opposing sides due to having different goals for mankind.

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51 minutes ago, FractalBeast said:

Mind you, in the original context there's no Lucifer in Job. It's just (one of the) God(s) telling a divine servant/lesser god/angel/demon/something to fuck Job's shit up for his/their own agenda. Before the Bible was written down the Hebrews had a pantheon that was copied 1:1 from Sumerian mythology, and they had no need for some godlike evil entity that was still weaker than God - since they had a pantheon and you don't run into power balance issues regarding evil (the problem of evil) in a pantheon.

Since I also studied theology I'm familiar with (some of the) sources you might refer to, e. g. Enûma Eliš and Epic of Gilgamesh. It is not as certain as you write that the Hebrews have written off Sumerian or Babylonian sources. Although there are similarities, there are also many differences, in any case there are no 1:1 copies, at least not in the Hebrew Scriptures. In historical and theological research, therefore, there are different views on the question of authorship. Perhaps as a compromise: If humanity has a common origin, then is it likely that similar and different representations exist? That's the same today.

 

To come back to the topic: It was all about saying that an intervention of heavenly angels does not necessarily have to have a Jewish / Islamic / Christian God as the cause. I hope (and I admit, for purely personal reasons) that id Software exploits this freedom.

 

In addition, Doom simply lives on the idea that evil is evil and can be destroyed by the protagonist without a pang of conscience. When the good becomes evil, justice is no longer a question of ethics but only a matter of power and that, at least for me, would mean less fun.

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The angel might be Samael:

 

Quote

Samael (Hebrew: סַמָּאֵל Sammāʾēl, "Venom of God", "Poison of God", or "Blindness of God"; rarely "Smil", "Samil", or "Samiel") is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is the accuser (Ha-Satan), seducer, and destroyer (Mashhit), and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau and a patron of Edom.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael

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I think you guys are looking way too much into this. Doom has never been a franchise for social commentary (well besides Doom Comic guy's little rant about environmentalism I guess).

 

I just interpreted it as shit is so fucked up that even Heaven's being invaded, and you gotta save it. Simple and in line with the Slayer's role as a defender, no edgy New Atheist nonsense.

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The story seems to be interesting, not a fan at all of a story focused Doom game but whatever, i am looking forward to see all the different locations and characters, the angels looks pretty cool.

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Given how little actual information we still have, there are a number of ways this can go down. Some of this can be extrapolated from what we already know, and some of it is simply guess work. A few of them I will list below:

The Angels lean more towards 'Order' than 'Good'
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Hell of Doom is more grounded in the pop culture notion rather than a traditional Judeo-Christian notion. This Hell and its Demons, while still certainly evil, are also portrayed as agents of Chaos and Discord. If Doom's Heaven is in polar opposition to this, they would be a universal force for Order working to keep the Demons at bay. In this Heaven would look benevolent and caring, if only in the interest of keeping the big bad monster Demons at bay. This alone wouldn't entirely explain why Heaven and Doomguy would come to blows, but it does lead to my next point.

The Angels think Humanity dying is for the best
There are two assumptions to make here, and both of them have the same outcome. Whether the Slayer's Testaments are correct in implying Doomguy runs around space and time to fight demons and save people because the basic plot of Doom keeps happening over and over, or the artwork of the Angels gifting Argent to the Sentinels means Heaven has seen Hell do this song and dance with other people and races across the universe before; Heaven wants to punish/not lift a finger to help us because we as a species brought the Demons upon ourselves, tipping the balance towards evil. Defeating the Demons back into Hell will still happen thanks to them having at least a single Doomslayer, but surely that can wait until the actual cause of the Demons being here in the first place is taken care of first. Unfortunately for them their Slayers entire motivation is more than just pure hatred towards Demons, it is also a drive for vengeance on behalf of the people the demons brutalize. This is turn may lead to...

Doomguy is the 'douche bag' in the equation

Even assuming whatever characterization before Doom 2016 isn't canon, Doomslayer is a driven and stubborn guy. He was on the same side as Hayden as far as stopping the Demons, but otherwise didn't give two shits about his motivation or insights. All he wanted was to kill Demons and stop them from fucking up Mars/Earth. This same roll could very well be the case with him and whatever Angel or Angels are opposing him. Unlike Hayden, who had enough sense to cast Doomguy away rather than fight him, the Heavens may very well thought themselves strong enough to smite Doomguy for going against their will. And Hell hath no fury like a Doomslayer scorned.

Keep in mind this is completely ignoring the very real possibilities of it being a single Angel doing all of this rather than Heaven as a whole, or demonic/corrupt/fallen Angels filling this same roll.
 

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13 minutes ago, Stale Meat said:

The Angels lean more towards 'Order' than 'Good'
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Hell of Doom is more grounded in the pop culture notion rather than a traditional Judeo-Christian notion. This Hell and its Demons, while still certainly evil, are also portrayed as agents of Chaos and Discord....

The Angels think Humanity dying is for the best
There are two assumptions to make here, and both of them have the same outcome. Whether the Slayer's Testaments are correct in implying Doomguy runs around space and time to fight demons and save people because the basic plot of Doom keeps happening over and over, or the artwork of the Angels gifting Argent to the Sentinels means Heaven has seen Hell do this song and dance with other people and races across the universe before; Heaven wants to punish/not lift a finger to help us because we as a species brought the Demons upon ourselves...

Doomguy is the 'douche bag' in the equation

Even assuming whatever characterization before Doom 2016 isn't canon, Doomslayer is a driven and stubborn guy. He was on the same side as Hayden as far as stopping the Demons, but otherwise didn't give two shits about his motivation or insights. All he wanted was to kill Demons and stop them from fucking up Mars/Earth. This same roll could very well be the case with him and whatever Angel or Angels are opposing him. Unlike Hayden, who had enough sense to cast Doomguy away rather than fight him, the Heavens may very well thought themselves strong enough to smite Doomguy for going against their will. And Hell hath no fury like a Doomslayer scorned.

This is a good possible explanation. Order vs chaos and humanity is like a hybrid of the two. Maybe the Angels wish to conquer Earth and fight the demons in order to save man from its unholy sin. Maybe the Slayer himself wishes to punish Heaven for failing to intervene.

 

However, I'm not quite buying the idea of all the Angels turning on the humans and wanting them destroyed. I think these are fallen angels who created the demons in the first place who will be fighting off against the Slayer. As we know from Judeo-Christian theology, Lucifer and his disciples were angels who challenged God and fell. I think it's far more likely that some of the Angels have hijacked Heaven and maybe even chased off God and the Slayer has to defeat them and liberate it. I have one solid bit of evidence to back this and one bit of conjecture:

  • The line "They are rage, brutal, without mercy. But you. You will be worse. Rip and tear, until it is done." at the start of the game seems to be a powerful entity instructing the Slayer. I do not think it is Hayden or a demon. I think it was an angel who said that to him, the same angels who blessed him. Slayer is doing Heaven's bidding by fighting the Demons, at least in the first game.
  • Slayer is as powerful as he is because the Seraphim blessed him. In the Celestial Hierarchy by an unkown Areopagite (which is treated as canon at least in the Orthodox Church), the Seraphim are the highest ranked angels. Important note is that Seraphim is plural, meaning he was blessed by more than one of the highest ranking angels. This makes it seem like at least the highest ranking of heaven's army supports the Slayer in his holy crusade against the demons.

Boys, I think we have an angelic civil war on our hands!

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I think that it would make sense for Doomguy to be fighting angels (preferably as a boss, not common enemies) because while the angels don't necessarily want to destroy humans, they could just be letting things take its coarse as this is the "Armageddon" that heaven is expecting and has planned for. The Doomguy is just messing up their prophecies so heaven wants to stop him.

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13 minutes ago, Ripspleen said:

I think that it would make sense for Doomguy to be fighting angels (preferably as a boss, not common enemies) because while the angels don't necessarily want to destroy humans, they could just be letting things take its coarse as this is the "Armageddon" that heaven is expecting and has planned for. The Doomguy is just messing up their prophecies so heaven wants to stop him.

That's not bad but now it feels like it's just ripping off Supernatural.

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3 minutes ago, Duke of Pathoris said:

That's not bad but now it feels like it's just ripping off Supernatural.

It would be similar but more badass. Besides that not all that the game would be focusing on, there is still the conflict with the UAC I'm sure.

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If we wanna be meta, the angels are totally the WAD authors! Doomguy is now taking out his vengeance for all the shovelware disks pumped out in the 90s.

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I kinda dig the idea that maybe Heaven is no less malicious than Hell.  It kinda parallels the reality that maybe there is no good and evil after all, just several similar shades of gray.  Who the "good guys" are depends on who's telling the story, and who's listening.

 

Of course, there's always the possibility that the "good guy" carries a double barreled shotgun with a meathook, and a wrist mounted blade.

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Hey guys I have a Theory in which doom eternal could be the biblical Apocalypse.Evidence well for starters the crucible prophecy.The latest wielder will go "mad or corrupted"(I cant remember correctly but something bad is going to happen to the last wielder)Samuel Hayden Is the last wielder what if The crucible prophecy relates to the Anti Christ and this Antichrist opens the get ways to hell allowing it to consume Earth After all there is already a demon worship cult in the UAC which they could be the anti Christ. It is said that in the apocalypse men will lose they re way and start worshiping false gods.The UAC is already preaching these ideals by calling the demon hoard "friends" and basically worship them.In the Story Trailer The angelic voice says its heaven s turn to judge penance exactly what happens i the Apocalypse and to further back this up The voice "Its Written" where you may ask in the fucking Bible of course."They are no longer your people to save" If the angelic voice is referring to man kind .He is technically saying that its to late to save mankind because its already corrupted.And even do The Slayer is Heavens champion he is in Heavens way against the final war(or the final destruction of hell) against hell which takes place on earth like in the apocalypse.However our lone Hero is stuck in the middle of this War.We dont know what the Doom Slayers intentions are in eternal. TBH I have no idea if the Slayer just wants revenge or wants to save mankind.What do you guys think of this theory????tell me your thoughts

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Hey guys I have a Theory in which doom eternal could be the biblical Apocalypse.Evidence well for starters the crucible prophecy.The latest wielder will go "mad or corrupted"(I cant remember correctly but something bad is going to happen to the last wielder)Samuel Hayden Is the last wielder what if The crucible prophecy relates to the Anti Christ and this Antichrist opens the get ways to hell allowing it to consume Earth After all there is already a demon worship cult in the UAC which they could be the anti Christ. It is said that in the apocalypse men will lose they re way and start worshiping false gods.The UAC is already preaching these ideals by calling the demon hoard "friends" and basically worship them.In the Story Trailer The angelic voice says its heaven s turn to judge penance exactly what happens i the Apocalypse and to further back this up The voice "Its Written" where you may ask in the fucking Bible of course."They are no longer your people to save" If the angelic voice is referring to man kind .He is technically saying that its to late to save mankind because its already corrupted.And even do The Slayer is Heavens champion he is in Heavens way against the final war(or the final destruction of hell) against hell which takes place on earth like in the apocalypse.However our lone Hero is stuck in the middle of this War.We dont know what the Doom Slayers intentions are in eternal. TBH I have no idea if the Slayer just wants revenge or wants to save mankind.What do you guys think of this theory????tell me your thoughts

 

Also to back this up even more Id software has gone through the Bible before especially when making THY FLESH CONSUMED(Quote straight from the bible)It doesn't have to be 90% accurate but there are a lot of elements in there

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, silentzorah said:

I kinda dig the idea that maybe Heaven is no less malicious than Hell.  It kinda parallels the reality that maybe there is no good and evil after all, just several similar shades of gray.  Who the "good guys" are depends on who's telling the story, and who's listening.

 

Also what's "good" or "evil" is subjective.

 

Anyway, I do believe that in a game like Doom it would be pretty much self-defeating to have some kind of Heaven dimension, only for it to turn out to be little more than just Hell 2.0 or something similar. I hope they've taken that into consideration and tried to make it, along with its "inhabitants", more interesting and worthwhile (and took inspiration from various mythologies and systems).

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On 6/10/2019 at 7:13 AM, whirledtsar said:

part of Doom's uniqueness is that you're LITERALLY fighting demons from hell, not evil aliens or otherworldly creatures.

 

This.

 

To be honest I felt that the story of Doom's reboot jumped the shark almost instantly by making the doom marine into an alien. The decision to shift the UAC away from teleportation experiments to "digging for hell oil" was another mistake. I just don't like all of these lore changes, and if it now turns out that "hell" is just a fucked up dimension rather than the actual real hell then that would be the final straw for me.

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