Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Duke of Pathoris

Heaven in Doom Eternal

Recommended Posts

On 6/10/2019 at 2:13 AM, whirledtsar said:

Doom's uniqueness is that you're LITERALLY fighting demons from hell, not evil aliens or otherworldly creatures.

*looks at the Doom novels* Yeah we really don't need to go down that road again.

Share this post


Link to post

To be honest, I really hope "bringing down the heaven's wrath" wasn't meant to be taken literally and that you don't actually slaughter heavenly angels in this game. Fallen angels I can see, since they're literally demons, but this is a game series that has thrived on the moral righteousness of slaughtering the den of evil. Why ruin that now? Just to be edgy? Even Romero wouldn't stoop to that, and he's the guy with crazy ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 6/14/2019 at 12:35 AM, Taurus Daggerknight said:

 

...sanitized? In what reality is Quake 2, the game about fighting brute-forcefully augmented cyborgs, whose surgical wounds still look fresh, and in which you trudge through a literal human meat factory, sanitized?

 

1998. Paul Steed, artist at id, about lack of balls in Q2: "The person, who dug that left. Let him do that at his company. I like science fiction. Religious connatations, I think, don't have a place in games, unless you're making a game about religious things. There's no need to try to create controversy to create more sales through satanic images, because we know it's going to run against a lot of people's grain".

 

He left id  "in retaliation for conflict over the creation Doom 3". Lol.

 

I myself find the lack of satanism in modern games daunting :). Even Doom 2k16, to my taste, had "fantasy" hell and not a repulsive nightmare.

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, incel said:

 

lack of balls in Q2

I bet that Rule 34 artists have since fixed that oversight.

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, incel said:

 

1998. Paul Steed, artist at id, about lack of balls in Q2: "The person, who dug that left. Let him do that at his company. I like science fiction. Religious connatations, I think, don't have a place in games, unless you're making a game about religious things. There's no need to try to create controversy to create more sales through satanic images, because we know it's going to run against a lot of people's grain".

 

He left id  "in retaliation for conflict over the creation Doom 3". Lol.

 

I myself find the lack of satanism in modern games daunting :). Even Doom 2k16, to my taste, had "fantasy" hell and not a repulsive nightmare.

 

Eh, I still don't see the lack of such as "sanitized" myself. The brute violence was more or less the same at the end of the day, with the only real difference being whether it was evil incarnate, or near-soulless aliens. 

 

Doom 2016 definitely leaned towards "Fantasy Hell", I'll give you that, though I'd argue that plenty of the originals did too. Barring the occasional inverted cross, it was for the most part a DnD dungeon romp with shotguns IMO.  Or perhaps a closer analogy would be Diablo's Hell; very obviously Christian influenced in its design, but not going out of its way to make people who actually do have beliefs feel like they're becoming the butt of a long running gag. For that matter, I honestly don't feel like even the original Doom's were particularly vindictive either. Again, there wasn't a lot of direct Biblical stuff that I recall, other than Episode 4's names, and the aforementioned occasional cross.  Heck, even the existence of Satan/ Lucifer himself is... not really clarified. Ever. Unless we're assuming the Icon of Sin was Lucifer? 

 

(This observation comes from a guy whose Hindu born/ raised primarily outside of the US, so it's entirely possible that I simply missed other direct shout outs). 

 

Share this post


Link to post

This observations come from a guy born communist, raised christian, grew into atheist (as all cool and edgy kids do).

 

With all the shit media had given to videogames, I can't remember many good hell representation. Even Doom, which everybody loves to poke fun about being the most christian game, it doesn't really feel like it. Doom demons can be so easily mistaken for aliens / mutants / cyborgs that it cheapens this unique premise (I wonder how many people who played shareware version caught up to this). As was said above: the most satanic concept is the icon of sin. We probably give creators more credit than there were put effort into fleshing out this subject.

 

My favourite hell was in Dante's Inferno. I can't remember much of the game (not helping that my data got corrupted), but I remember that I was amazed how close they've tried to be to the source material. Some things were quite disturbing, I think it helped that the 2nd and the 3rd circles were lust and gluttony respectively. But this kind of scrupulousness, of course, won't suit Doom as it's Dante's vision. And also, I don't want videogame hell to yuck me, provoke me to puke, I want it to feel disturbing and evil.

 

Silent-Hill 2 and 3 were very good at designs that felt off, not right, disturbing, but didn't resort to cheesy tricks.

 

It all depends on the mood you're shooting for and the goals you're bond with, but I don't think that hell should be structured, understandable, organized. It should kick you into your subconscious, have an alien logic behind it.

 

The representation of Heaven, on the other hand, is even trickier. 1st of all, I don't think it should be material at all. Grand white walls and columns seem to me very trite, suitable for the Bogus Adventure, something poking fun of otherwordly sanitarium in roman style. But white void, of course, is not suited for the doom-style gameplay.

 

So, I think that in Doom heaven and hell must be pretty similiar: rocky terrain with occasional points of interest; the main differece is the sky color and overall feel of the place, with hell being: disturbing, evil, unholy; and heaven radiating peacefullness, tranquility, eternality.

 

Bayoneta gave us some cool angels to fight against, I'm torn on the subject of purging the skies. It will, of course, be well in tone with the old joke about "the next level", but it will hurt the "cristian" part hard. It's kinda cool to have the protagonist as a zealot, the punishing sword, the demon slayer, and not just a killing machine that switches gears, I think there must be something pure and overall good behind his actions, and not just subjectively good, but "good" as a law, as a dogma. Oh, give me an old fairy tale about good and evil!

Share this post


Link to post
On 7/14/2019 at 8:57 PM, incel said:

 

He left id  "in retaliation for conflict over the creation Doom 3". Lol.

 

I myself find the lack of satanism in modern games daunting :). Even Doom 2k16, to my taste, had "fantasy" hell and not a repulsive nightmare.

I'm sorry to break your conspiracy theory but Steed was fired for other reasons:

 

"An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.

[...]

Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition."

 

https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/finger.pl?id=1&time=20000601040557

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, igg said:

I'm sorry to break your conspiracy theory but Steed was fired for other reasons:

 

I dunno, it sounds pretty much exactly like I said: 

 

Quote

 

Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan <...> were making it seem more and more like we weren't going down the right path. I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.

 

An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company): We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.


Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed, new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.

 

I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM. We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types.

 

 

Sounds like a disagreement upon the design basis.

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, incel said:

 

I dunno, it sounds pretty much exactly like I said: 

 

 

Sounds like a disagreement upon the design basis.

Sorry to say that again, but you're wrong. Steed was not fired because of design/creative arguments: Steed and John Carmack decided to start working on Doom 3, against Adrian and Kevin's decision, others joined Steed/Carmack and Adrian and Kevin hat the choice to either fire the Doom team or allow them to develop Doom 3. They decided for the last one but fired Steed in revenge. That's what John Carmack was talking about: "Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition".

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

I'm personally hoping that all the "angels" we're seeing are actually a group of demons that are philosophically opposed to the normal ones. With them trying to ascend where their ancestors fell, with God being his usual self about it and kicking them back down whenever they get close?

Share this post


Link to post

Does anyone have any theory on how we'll go to Heaven in Eternal?

 

I imagine the Tower of Babel could be how we get there.

 

If i recall it right, the original story was that mankind built it to reach god until he punished everyone with different languages.

Share this post


Link to post
On 8/31/2019 at 2:19 AM, GabeC1997 said:

I'm personally hoping that all the "angels" we're seeing are actually a group of demons that are philosophically opposed to the normal ones. With them trying to ascend where their ancestors fell, with God being his usual self about it and kicking them back down whenever they get close?

Well, technically all demons are just angels that are philosophically opposed to the other ones.

 

Angels, demons. All the same shit. Things that the Doomslayer will kill.

Share this post


Link to post

I agree with the discomfort with fighting Heaven. I'm not religious but I'm still rather sanctimonious :P I also agree with the notion that having Heaven as Hell 2 is just lazy writing. Now if they're not evil but still antagonistic that opens up some interesting story ideas. They and the Slayer both want to stop Hell but have conflicting notions of how. Or maybe they've been fighting Hell so long and are so sick of a lack of progress that they've increased aggressive tactics and have forgotten why they're fighting Hell. The Doomslayer is not going to start fighting the Angels for the sake of it. He's not an idiot that likes to hurt things, he's intelligent and compassionate and won't squander an ally against Hell (who gave him his power, no less) unless they've done something real messed up.

 

When asked if Heaven is with or against us, Marty Stratton said the real question was are we with or against them. So that's something to ponder over. Marty and Hugo also said we meet "a" God. They specified "a" God and not "the" God. I'd also like to point out they said "meet" and not "fight" though they could just be being subtle. Since it's "a" God that implies that there are more, so maybe we're not solely drawing from Christianity. We know there's a race of Demon called the Titans, a name from Greek myth, so that might be something. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

During the Battlemode reveal the Demon summoning wheel had "Makyr drone" as an option which implies that either the Demons have stolen Makyr technology or that there are Makyrs serving with the Demons. Food for thought.

 

What really interests me is that if we're drawing off Christian mythology, does that mean that all the Demons we've been fighting have been fallen angels all along? Will we get some nice backstory on their rebellion against Heaven? Will we see a Heavenly Mancubus?

Share this post


Link to post

did you know that the demons were never cast into hell? instead they were cast down to earth. makes you think about whose domain we're in huh?

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Liquid Ink said:

Will we see a Heavenly Mancubus?

I always keep saying that a Heaven in Doom could paralell Hell in the sense they have some stuff in common when it comes to level textures, decoration and props.

Mostly applying this to classic Hell.

 

But i think Heaven could deserve their own variety of enemies too, specially if they bring unique designs or mechanics and some are inspired by concepts like ring angels or wings with eyes.

 

Also, i remembered that Doom 64 was once meant to bring up different cultural versions of Hell, which makes me think it's an idea that could work.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_64#Trivia

Share this post


Link to post
3 hours ago, jeroa said:

demons were never cast anywhere, they dont exist

well, you never know. they MIGHT exist. you just can't see them. after all, they're spirits. things that give science the middle finger.

Share this post


Link to post
On 9/20/2019 at 7:59 PM, Liquid Ink said:

I agree with the discomfort with fighting Heaven. 

 

I hope we fight everything. Heaven, hell, demons, god. Get in the Slayers way, he will kill you, whoever you are 

Share this post


Link to post
18 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

 

I hope we fight everything. Heaven, hell, demons, god. Get in the Slayers way, he will kill you, whoever you are 

that's...

a bit overboard.

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

 

I hope we fight everything. Heaven, hell, demons, god. Get in the Slayers way, he will kill you, whoever you are 

He doesn't though. That guard on Phobos got in the Slayer's way and he just confiscated his gun. The Slayer isn't violent for violence's sake; he has a specific hatred for the demons, motivated by compassion for their victims.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, memes4lyfe said:

that's...

a bit overboard.

 

Why? Evil is just a relative word. I’d happily put the Heavenly Host in my line of fire if given the chance 

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Liquid Ink said:

He doesn't though. That guard on Phobos got in the Slayer's way and he just confiscated his gun. The Slayer isn't violent for violence's sake; he has a specific hatred for the demons, motivated by compassion for their victims.

 

Yep. And you can argue heaven ain’t exactly done wonders for the world either. Ordinary guy on the street gets a pass from the Slayer. Angelic warrior who did sweet fark all while millions were slaughtered well now you’re part of the problem.

Share this post


Link to post

Heaven is the Klave Race who are fighting demons (Freds) since ancient Doom wars. Just a crazy idea! :p

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, thewormofautumn said:

 

Why? Evil is just a relative word. I’d happily put the Heavenly Host in my line of fire if given the chance 

Not really.

bruh, y'all's need jebus.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×