"fantasy combat puzzle" describes doom new and old

[Mk7_Centipede]

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/doom-eternal-is-a-fantasy-combat-puzzle-but-what-d/1100-6467505/

 

Nice interview about what is essential to DOOM.  I think it speaks both to the old and new variants.

[DooM_RO]

Quote

Hugo Martin: Basically, the game is going to provide you with a problem that you're going to need to solve (and you) solve it through aggression, through skill, through the mastery of the elements in the game. We're going to give you the tools to solve the problem, and it's going to be up to you to figure it out and master how to do it.

I think that we have to lean on providing a well-crafted experience over however many hours to make that engaging from beginning to end, and the way we do that is by challenging the player. Our game has to have a meta. If there is no meta to the experience, then there's no subtext to what you're doing. It's just pretty flat and shallow at that point.

 

Martin: Say I'm out of ammo. I'm being hunted down by all these guys, what do I do? I can't deal with this arachnatron's gun, and it's mauling me. What do I do? Oh, there's a mod with a scope over there. Damn, my aim sucks. Okay, maybe I need to get better at aiming. We put these intentional design fail states in the game where the player fails.

 

This is all great stuff to hear and I know they want to do that and I know they're trying but how are they going to achieve that if your health, ammo and armor are going to regenerate at the click of a button?

 

Quote

The key is that you've got to feel like it's fair. If the game is screwing me that's not cool. Enemies with hitscan weapons that are unavoidable and I can't do anything about it, that's not cool.

 

Not entirely true. I get it, I really get it. Those cultists in Blood can get really annoying but if you balance the hitscanner properly and you balance him by his positioning in the levels he becomes a fun and interesting part of the puzzle. Basically, the secret to good hitscanners is making them glass cannons (1 shotgun blast at midrange) and proper placement.

[DooM_RO]

They keep talking about how your decisions, both good and bad matter but I didn't really see that in the demo. It's not that I don't believe them since the stuff they are talking about are not really buzzwords that attract the Fortnite players. I do think they are genuine, well-intentioned people. It really feels like responses made for the people of Doomworld who really understand these kind of obscure gameplay loops but I really want to see proof of the things they are saying in the interview.

 

How are they going to make us pay for out mistakes (and therefore make us improve ) if you can regenerate resources at the click of a button?

Edited June 12, 2019 by DooM_RO

[Linguica]

The impression that I get is that id Software has decided that the glory kill / chainsaw mechanic was the Right Thing, and they are doubling down with it in DE by adding the flame belcher to collect armor, and generally require you to harvest your own resources instead of running around collecting pickups. So the "meta" is going to be finding the best ways to harvest resources while you're busy using up resources during a fight. Contrast this to the meta of Doom 2016, where the company assured people that you didn't have to glory kill things if you didn't want to.

[MrHofmann]

2 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

How are they going to make us pay for out mistakes (and therefore make us improve ) if you can regenerate resources at the click of a button?

 

While it is at the click of a button, there are certain restrictions and risks involved. Namely, the most amount of armor the player got when he used the flamethrower in the demo was about 30, which is basically nothing, an imp fireball takes 30 armor. It also has a cooldown of 15 seconds, and in this game 15 seconds is not short, a lot of things can happen here. Similarly the chainsaw has limited fuel, and is optimally used on weaker enemies to save it. And for the glory kills, not every glory kill is a safe one, you would most likely search for a weaker isolated enemy to glory kill. The flamethrower is also best used on weaker enemies because that is the quickest way you get your armor. There are now a lot more choices involved than simply managing pickups, and learning from making the wrong choices is what they are referring to. On the other hand if all these mechanics are not well balanced out then choices don't matter and there is nothing to learn, but since 2016 was balanced ok, I don't see why wouldn't Eternal be as well.

[Mk7_Centipede]

DOOM_RO has a point though.

 

I was reading this today as well: https://junkee.com/sekiro-game-difficulty/200666

“The designers of games that people view [as hard], whether it’s Sekiro, Cuphead, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Celeste and so on have a shared design intent, and it isn’t ‘hard’ – it’s success through persistence”

 

DOOM2016 can be solved from persistence. If you dont have the ammo, you can *snap fingers* and get the ammo you need.  A puzzle implies a bit more of "oh, i made the wrong move now I lost".

 

If puzzle gameplay is like rock>paper>scissors, then DOOM2016 is never monsters>player. You are not forced to choose fight-or-flight beyond the fleeting moment.

[DooM_RO]

5 hours ago, Hofmann said:

 

While it is at the click of a button, there are certain restrictions and risks involved. Namely, the most amount of armor the player got when he used the flamethrower in the demo was about 30, which is basically nothing, an imp fireball takes 30 armor. It also has a cooldown of 15 seconds, and in this game 15 seconds is not short, a lot of things can happen here. Similarly the chainsaw has limited fuel, and is optimally used on weaker enemies to save it. And for the glory kills, not every glory kill is a safe one, you would most likely search for a weaker isolated enemy to glory kill. The flamethrower is also best used on weaker enemies because that is the quickest way you get your armor. There are now a lot more choices involved than simply managing pickups, and learning from making the wrong choices is what they are referring to. On the other hand if all these mechanics are not well balanced out then choices don't matter and there is nothing to learn, but since 2016 was balanced ok, I don't see why wouldn't Eternal be as well.

 

30 armor is not nothing at all. In the new Doom games it's basically just more health. I would give 5 and that's it.

[A Nobody]

They're making the game easier...?

[Novaseer]

7 minutes ago, The-Heretic-Assassin said:

They're making the game easier...?

All info I've heard about the game points towards the opposite, from devs to lucky SoBs able to play the E3 demo.

[Shaviro]

One of my most fond memories of gaming actually stems from low health/ammo situations in Doom2. Having messed up an encounter, barely scraping along and meticulously searching for a medkit and 4 shotgun shells. My favourite memory from Doom 2016 is actually 'kinda' the same. I tried to avoid glory kills and spent a lot of time exploring the environment, trying to find health and ammo. It's in these stretches of the game where it all comes together for me. When the game breathes and you take it all in. On that note I'm worried that Doom Eternal may be way too much like Doom 2016 was in the later stages and not enough like the excellent Foundry level.

[DooM_RO]

2 minutes ago, Shaviro said:

One of my most fond memories of gaming actually stems from low health/ammo situations in Doom2. Having messed up an encounter, barely scraping along and meticulously searching for a medkit and 4 shotgun shells. My favourite memory from Doom 2016 is actually 'kinda' the same. I tried to avoid glory kills and spent a lot of time exploring the environment, trying to find health and ammo. It's in these stretches of the game where it all comes together for me. When the game breathes and you take it all in. On that note I'm worried that Doom Eternal may be way too much like Doom 2016 was in the later stages and not enough like the excellent Foundry level.

 

That's exactly what I meant!

 

Actually, health and ammo are critical in Ultra Nightmare but no so much in the "normal" game. You really gotta know where each pickup is. I want some of that in the non-permadeath game too.

[MrHofmann]

2 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

30 armor is not nothing at all. In the new Doom games it's basically just more health. I would give 5 and that's it.

 

True.

[Mk7_Centipede]

This paragraph starts off soothing and then gets all wtf at the end. Are they talking about Beserk?

 

"The central idea is that while there is still ammo, health, and so on lying around as usual it is the demons themselves which are your most important resource. Chainsaw one to death and it’ll spew ammo, use a new shoulder-mounted flamethrower on them and they’ll spit out armour, glory kill them (perform a Mortal Kombat style melee finishing move when they’re almost dead) and they’ll give up health power-ups, and keep doing more glory kills and you’ll activate a powered-up rage mode."

 

from: https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/10/doom-eternal-hands-on-preview-hell-hath-no-fury-like-a-doomslayer-scorned-9871157/

[Linguica]

It's called "blood punch" and it seems to act sort of like the Doom 3 soulcube except it charges up to let you do a powerful melee attack.

[Moustachio]

On 6/13/2019 at 1:48 AM, DooM_RO said:

 

That's exactly what I meant!

 

Actually, health and ammo are critical in Ultra Nightmare but no so much in the "normal" game. You really gotta know where each pickup is. I want some of that in the non-permadeath game too.

 

Aren't Nightmare and Ultra Nightmare are the same difficulty though?

[Novaseer]

51 minutes ago, The Mysterious Moustachio said:

 

Aren't Nightmare and Ultra Nightmare are the same difficulty though?

On the surface, yes, but playing UNM is so much more tense because if you mess up once your entire campaign's reset. The pressure may consequently make some people play worse.

[Mk7_Centipede]

"Hugo Martin, creative director at id Software, told us to expect fewer health packs and ammo dumps dotted around levels, with item distribution "tuned and tightened" across Doom Eternal. The game also introduces flame belch, a new companion attack that sets demons ablaze, and causes them to bleed armor top-ups. I'm not sure why they do that.

This new flame attack adds yet another dimension to how chainsaw attacks will land you with ammo, and how standard melee kills bump up your health. Somehow, the creators have cunningly snuck a resource-management sim into the world's most iconic FPS series. During my hands-on demo at E3, if my armor wasn't sufficient, then flame belching was my friend.

...&...

Martin continued, "When we say engage, we mean it. When you see a giant health pack, you 'save' it, and return when you really need it. We got you thinking, and you're engaged with the levels themselves."

[DooM_RO]

11 hours ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

"Hugo Martin, creative director at id Software, told us to expect fewer health packs and ammo dumps dotted around levels, with item distribution "tuned and tightened" across Doom Eternal. The game also introduces flame belch, a new companion attack that sets demons ablaze, and causes them to bleed armor top-ups. I'm not sure why they do that.

This new flame attack adds yet another dimension to how chainsaw attacks will land you with ammo, and how standard melee kills bump up your health. Somehow, the creators have cunningly snuck a resource-management sim into the world's most iconic FPS series. During my hands-on demo at E3, if my armor wasn't sufficient, then flame belching was my friend.

...&...

Martin continued, "When we say engage, we mean it. When you see a giant health pack, you 'save' it, and return when you really need it. We got you thinking, and you're engaged with the levels themselves."

 

I donțt get it. Why would you need to save it for later if you can get 50-80 health back from a glory kill? What exactly is the point of these pickups anymore?

[FractalBeast]

If there's a health pickup on the map, that means there's an extra thought for you to mull over during the fight.

"Do I go for the glorykill here?"
"No, there's a stimpack in the corner."
"I can go for the armour instead. Or maybe for the ammo?"

[whatup876]

I just remembered how the Blood Punch works and wondered if that could work, in case the player makes "too many GK's".

Like, he does a melee instakill at the cost of no bonus items, in case he made too many glory kills.

 

Might not be a good idea.

[MrHofmann]

I had another look at the E3 demo in order to examine Glory Kills a bit more. In the arena where the big fight was happening, the player picked up a total of 430 HP from glory kills only, and 110 HP from pickups out of which 48 HP were actually used because he picked them up mostly by accident when he had almost full health, that's a total of 478 HP from both GK and pickups. Most of the GK dropped 10-20 HP even when the player was low on health, but sometimes it dropped 50-60 HP too. Now, to be honest, the player was not that bad (I would say he's of average skill) and was still able to receive up to 500 HP damage (didn't count the armor damage that the player received) in a single fight.

 

If they would remove Glory Kills from the game, then they would have to place health pickups of various sizes with a total value of at least 500 HP in only one arena of average size, which is like the one that was shown at E3. I think placing this much health packs would flood the arena with pickups. Also I'm not sure if all these pickups would fit on map edges and corners (they probably could but it might look ridiculous). A lot of the pickups would probably have to be placed on paths and would eventually get in the way of the player, I imagine the player would have to put effort in avoiding the big ones in order not to waste them when he is almost full health which would get annoying when in the middle of a fight. A possible solution would be to reduce the number of pickups by increasing the amount of HP received from pickups but then there is a higher chance of wasting HP when collecting when almost full, which would mean that the player would have to wait for his health to drop to critical levels, which I imagine would cause a lot of deaths and frustration.

 

In old Dooms, I don't remember a fight where you could receive 500 damage and survive. I think even receiving 500 damage in the entire level is too much. The point is that the combat in old Doom is more primitive compared to Eternal and you could have a reasonable amount of health pickups in an area to cover the damage taken. In Eternal I think it is either we have Glory Kills or we have pickups only with significantly dumbed down AI. The only thing I don't understand is what is the purpose of pickups if you can get health from GK, save ammo maybe?

[DooM_RO]

@Hofmann

 

That's a great point. The old Doom monsters are slower and more primitive, the new ones are the exact opposite so you are going to get hit more often.

[Novaseer]

10 hours ago, Hofmann said:

The only thing I don't understand is what is the purpose of pickups if you can get health from GK, save ammo maybe?

I think pickups are meant to be a last resort for when you get hit down to critical levels and there aren't any cannon fodder type enemies left.

[Mk7_Centipede]

battlemode looks to have resource management be a pretty strong focus.

[whatup876]

18 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

@Hofmann

 

That's a great point. The old Doom monsters are slower and more primitive, the new ones are the exact opposite so you are going to get hit more often.

 

The new monsters do look stronger in comparison but at the same time, the older enemies feel like they were specifically designed around a specific role or idea (and how that is implemented with enemy placement), which sometimes can change how you play. (meaning sometimes you do have to take cover)

 

If you were to remove sprites and sounds and make them all random shapes like black squares, you'd still recognize most of them because of how they play.

These demons' reboot counterparts even have new moves but at the same time, some lack the abilities from the original versions. (or sometimes, it feels like simpler versions of their attacks, either due to tech or design limitations)

 

* Revenants had homing rockets that could lead you to run around the map but you could also lead them into walls.

* Mancubi shot 2 fireballs at the same time, three times in a row, with varying angles, which could make the player's strafing difficult. (like he shot to both where you're currently at and where you are going)

* Pain elementals didn't attack on their own but spawn LS's, even after death at times, so you'd take them as a priority to the point you'd even get close enough to stop them from spawning souls.

* Archviles had that flame attack that could even make you jump and much like PE's, they were a "support class" type but with monster ressurection. (you'd also take cover because of his attack)

 

I feel like the last two were practically represented by the Summoner in 2016 because of limitations but the fact that lost souls could destroy themselves made me wonder why they didn't let the Eternal PE simply let them fly around in the air.

Because now he looks like a Cacodemon reskin with splash damage who sometimes doesn't cause any harm when the souls are just dancing around him.

 

I hope the new enemies have new moves and abilities, even if some seem annoying at first, because variety is always nice.

Edited July 27, 2019 by whatup876 : fix

[Mk7_Centipede]

today's presentation by marty and hugo was quite compelling imo.

 

rockets>arachnoids. ballista>caracass. plasma>shieldguards. it appears you will need to use all your guns to win large encounters. they removed crouch, which is awesome. It definitely has more of a DOOM2 feel, like where if you see a pain elemental or archvile you usually go for them first.  the carcass looks like a similar type high priority monster that pretty much demands you kill it a certain way- whereas n 2016 you basically just cleared out areas you wanted to hang out in.

 

And albeit there are less pickups, you get worthless zombies between fights to restock as you choose.  Which I think is going to be cool and strategic.  if the incidental combat is puzzle-like (which is what they claim) and you have to maneuver slowing and damaging sectors (or platforming) to resupply off of plain jane zombies... its going to be a lot of fun.  And they made the rocket launcher like the original DOOM rocket launcher? that is so cool. watch them corners!

 

also, exploration leads to optional encounters?  I am certain they peruse these boards and have taken a lot of advice to heart from the experts around here. stoked!

[DooM_RO]

The Carcass is probably the most interesting new monster. It really feels like a "lost" Doom 2 demon.