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CrbnBased

Perception of Doom

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Dark Doom and the texture pack by the same name, ambience pack, maybe Build Your Skill by WildWeasel and if I am feeling particularly crazy, Hideous Destructor. 

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11 minutes ago, AffanDede said:

Dark Doom and the texture pack by the same name, ambience pack, maybe Build Your Skill by WildWeasel and if I am feeling particularly crazy, Hideous Destructor. 

 

Dark Doom is the base of my experiment, absolutely love it, the atmosphere it provides is great, didn't know about the texture pack though.  Currently I'm using a plastic textures mod as well as a PBR materials mod to help make the original textures stand out in the limited light.  I'm running on mobile so excuse the HUD, I'm thinking of digging out my old PC and trying to add a few more dynamic light sources.

 

I've also heard of Hideous Destructor but haven't played it, I'll download it this evening and give it a shot, as well as Build Your Skill.

 

Below are a few photos of me trying to add atmosphere back into Doom.

 

Screenshot_20190617-140347.png

Screenshot_20190617-080100.png

Screenshot_20190617-140411.png

Screenshot_20190615-192429.png

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12 hours ago, CrbnBased said:

Has anyone else discovered that their perception of Doom has changed, and want to fear the halls of Doom again?  If so what types of wads and mods do you use to achieve that dread?


I would definitely recommend Nihility for that. The lack of music works really well for putting you on edge. I also agree with @Woolie Wool, playing in 320x200 at 35fps adds hugely to the atmosphere. If you want to play GZDoom wads like that I'd recommend adding Vanilla Essence to the mix.

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I wasn't around when classic doom was perceived as scary and realistic. For me the only thing that ever got me """scared""" was the gameplay of the maps, in case it was something difficult. As such I've always leaned a lot more towards gameplay driven maps, rather than heavily detailed ones.

Making a map look dark, and adding a fitting MIDI/mp3/whatever is something pretty much everybody can do these days, to a varying degree of course. Building for example difficult fights that behave consistently, which also force you to be on point pretty much all the time because else you get pwnd.... that's a lot more difficult than inflating the linedef-count. Never mind that sometimes less really is more.

 

As for bringing back the scary days of classic doom... You can't experience a particular thing for the first time twice.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with the 320x200/35 fps comments. But I'd add a nice (and preferably big) CRT monitor. I built an old school machine like this some years ago, also with a good SB16 compatible sound card and the scary atmosphere of the mid 90's came back... Except for the game being drastically easier of course.

 

Also it's funny you post that Delta Touch image. I've been playing a lot with that port and the difficulty added by the touch controls has reminded me of the old days when Doom used to be a lot more difficult due to control inexperience. Sometimes just dodging an Imp fireball is a challenge!

Edited by UNERXAi

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35 fps? Sorry but less fps does not make doom better or more scary. I'll agree with lower resolution though. 320x200 is a but too low for my liking but 640x400 does feel really good for older mapsets (which look really bland on higher resolutions).

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4 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

As for bringing back the scary days of classic doom... You can't experience a particular thing for the first time twice.

 

This! Unfortunately this is so very true. I wish I could experience my first time in Doom again.

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When I was far younger, I was afraid of Doom for many reasons: my first introduction to it was my dad showing me the collector's edition box and asking me what it spelt (I replied "Ooom" due to the font). The melted skull box art really made an impression on me, and shaped my perception of the game from there on.

 

We didn't have a mouse and I didn't know how to strafe (PC and GBA versions), so a few encounters where I couldn't escape easily and died set a precedent for me and made me extremely uneasy to wander anywhere in case I found myself trapped. I mainly watched my dad play, and seeing a new monster appear was always an exciting, tense and powerful moment but more importantly, I never knew what to expect next.

 

It wasn't like now where I know the entire monster roster, I had no idea what could be hiding in the dark. (ALSO, I didn't know Doom/Doom II/Final Doom were different games as my dad played them back to back. For all I knew, there was one Doom with all these levels, monsters and weapons.) This kind of extends to my next point: I was young, and the concept of game design catering to the player was not something I knew of. As far as little me was concerned, the game had a mind of its own and ANY wall I brushed against could open up and who-know-what could emerge from it. The way I perceived it was actually sort of similar to how people generally see "troll" games/mods, like Cat Mario - where you have to constantly wonder what the creator would be thinking and just how they'll try to trip you up next.

 

Adding on to my point about not knowing all the monsters, the entire experience of Doom was alien to me. Of course I'd played games much more technologically advanced, like Ratchet and Clank and other PS2 games, but I had no knowledge of how technology worked. I wouldn't walk past a wall; I'd stare at the pixels that made it up in wonder, concluding that these strange gritty squares must be the tangible alien material that this digital world was made of. The monsters weren't flat sprites with predictable, manipulatable behaviour, they were blocky, living, sentient beings that hated me and knew how scared I was.

 

Being allowed to sit at the keyboard once in a blue moon and play Doom, selecting Inferno > Nightmare without knowing what it was was probably the nail in the coffin for making sure I never got further than a few rooms until I was much older. The screen melted away, I saw that psychedelic pit with the eye switch, then got surrounded by what I perceived to be a massive swarm of Imps and fireballs, with controls I couldn't use to escape from them with, and that was that.

Edited by Kapanyo

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12 hours ago, Woolie Wool said:

What added atmosphere? You destroyed the atmosphere that hadn't already been sucked out by the razor-sharp linedef edges and polygonal truecolor rendering.

 

WuwjjSG.png

Atmosphere restored.

 

I don't think Doom really ever can or will be scary anymore. Doom scared people largely by its context, its transgressing of social norms and its popularizing of a radically new way of interacting with a video game. The "next Doom" in terms of cultural impact will not be anything like Doom, because art exists and is defined by its context. It would have to be for the world of today what Doom was for the world of 1993, and those two worlds are very different places.

 

That said, I can very much be afraid of the meatspace human being who designed the particular demon-infested hellscape I'm dashing through. Especially if that human being is Ribbiks.

 

Wow, completely missed the whole point of the post. 

 

Have you played Doom 64 and Doom 3?  Both evolutions of Doom but with better takes on the atmosphere, these are noticable improvements.  Hell, Doom on PS1 does this as well with lighting and sound design.  If people didn't want to have creepyness back into Doom then why did all the evolutions (ports and sequels) after Doom 2 try to make the atmosphere, lighting and sound more sinister and off-putting.

 

Take for example the evolutions of Resident Evil.  It was survival horror, then action horror, now it's a bit of both, taking what works from both sides of the coin, while staying true to the original concept.

 

I still love my classic Doom and all I added was Plastic Shaders over original textures and Dark Doom with item lights to make up for the original levels lack of dynamic lighting.  As well as a flashlight mod.  Enemies are the same, but the feeling is different, with limited view it's harder, and the pacing much slower. 

 

I don't want to downgrade to original Doom specs, I'm trying to find a more modern way to get the same feeling I had when I was 14 and playing it on my 486.  I'm chasing a feeling, not accuracy to the original source.

 

 

Here's a video of some gameplay, sorry no sound.  No matter how familiar with Doom you are, limiting the players ability to correctly navigate the environment seems to be a good first step in achieveing some  degree of tension.

Edited by CrbnBased : Added Video Link

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Posted (edited)

I have played both Doom 3 and Doom 64, and neither are strict "improvements" to Doom's gameplay, nor are they particularly scary, unless you have a real big bug up your ass about jump scares from behind. There is no "more modern way to get the same feeling" because the feeling is bound up in the context and technology of the original game, at the original time. You're chasing something you can't have, no matter what you do to Doom.

 

Doom is not some empty pile of assets and mechanics that can be "improved" or "upgraded" by bolting on more modern things. The 320x200 resolution, 256 colors, and lighting technology are core parts of Doom's aesthetic presentation, and all of its assets were made with that specification in mind. So I pose you a counter-question: when was the last time you played Doom in "original specs" and seen the way every single graphic fits together perfectly with no scaling or stretching? And when was the last time you actually used your own imagination while playing a game? To me one of the appeal of low-res software Doom is that you can't see everything; your mind is filling in the spaces between those big chunky pixels, which makes the levels feel less like levels and more like places, and keep my mind on the actual gameplay rather than noticing that this SUPPORT3 is three map units too far to the right.

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2 hours ago, CrbnBased said:

I don't want to downgrade to original Doom specs, I'm trying to find a more modern way to get the same feeling I had when I was 14 and playing it on my 486.  I'm chasing a feeling, not accuracy to the original source.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what mod you slap onto the game, it'll feel different for one reason or another, but nothing will ever make it feel as "fresh" as it was when playing it for the first time on a typewriter.

 

I mean, there are some things woolie and I have disagreed on in the past, uncapped framerates being one of those things, and I'm not so sure that all the design decisions he mentions were done "deliberately" because it might as well have been simply "okay, this works, let's just go from here" at times, but he's certainly right in that you can't just bolt a few mods and assetts on the game to get the same creepy-ness of days gone by.

 

If you want something that isn't just tacked on, simply play a custom mapset you haven't played yet, and slap on your flashlight mod for all I care, chances are it'll get you closer to experiencing something for the first time than mutilating the IWADs with modifications that simply look goofy and out of place.

 

Edit: By the way, talking about enhancing the atmosphere while playing on your smartphone instead of a proper screen is heresy as far as I'm concerned.

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The last time I got a real nostalgia flash, which brought up memories of how it felt back then, was when I tried Calico. Seeing the Jaguar typical Doom graphics was a heartwarming moment.

 

When Doom on the Jaguar was released I couldn‘t stop playing it. Even with the not so comfortable Gamepad, it felt so grim and dark. There was always a feeling of being alone and forgotten within the hallways of the game.

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37 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what mod you slap onto the game, it'll feel different for one reason or another, but nothing will ever make it feel as "fresh" as it was when playing it for the first time on a typewriter.

 

I mean, there are some things woolie and I have disagreed on in the past, uncapped framerates being one of those things, and I'm not so sure that all the design decisions he mentions were done "deliberately" because it might as well have been simply "okay, this works, let's just go from here" at times, but he's certainly right in that you can't just bolt a few mods and assetts on the game to get the same creepy-ness of days gone by.

 

If you want something that isn't just tacked on, simply play a custom mapset you haven't played yet, and slap on your flashlight mod for all I care, chances are it'll get you closer to experiencing something for the first time than mutilating the IWADs with modifications that simply look goofy and out of place.

 

Edit: By the way, talking about enhancing the atmosphere while playing on your smartphone instead of a proper screen is heresy as far as I'm concerned.

 

Oh boy, I didn't want the thread to devolve into something like this but here goes my opinion.

 

The whole Doom community needs to wake up and be less critical when people modify Doom or play it in alternative ways.  I'm here spouting only good things about Doom, how it's changed, and trying to spark some open discussion with people who feel the same way.  I guess I'm an outlier.

 

I will not be rude, I will not discourage someone from enjoying something that I enjoy even if they change it, or slap a new coat of paint on it.

 

I said it in another thread and I mean it.  

 

Doom in itself is artwork, but has been changed over time, and with love, to now be the brush and canvas.  No longer are we stuck only appreciating IDs original creation, we can see what the love from a collective of creative minds can do.

 

We need to be better than this, make Doom accessible to everyone, as well as be conscious of our criticisms to people that decide to join our small community.

 

I run a custom picture framing business and if I were to ever discourage an artist from being creative, amateur or otherwise I'd have to seriously rethink my value to the world.

 

Also this is the original that I framed years ago, you may recognize it, it makes tours.  I've done the originals to many more like it as well and have a great appreciation for art in all it's forms.  Stop being so antagonistic!

20170415_140444.jpg

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Crbnbased I agree with you almost entirely.

 

But I want to add another factor into the mix. Exploration. This for me is a constant, I want to explore over there, find that secret but visible powerup, get all the secrets, kill all the things etc etc. And back in the day, this was motivation to overcome the terror of the unknown. And now that Doom is more action based, Exploration is a reason to overcome the levels and the monsters in a more 'action' based approach.

 

So for me, Doom still has 2 out of 3 reasons to play. Action and Exploration, but not fear.

 

Although that said, Sigil did an amazing job of creating a sense of malevolence and fear of the unknown given I am very familiar with every monster, weapon and texture in classic Doom.

 

I would love to have Doom be scary again. And I would take 'interpretation' over 'literal' to achieve that end. I agree that low resolution certainly limits the view and the ability to perceive what is out there. Even the inability to look up and down created fear of what was just out of sight above and below. So 2 ways to artificially create fear are gone in all modern games. Smoke, fog and darkness can replicate the first, and a torch cone of light, where all else is dark can replicate the latter perhaps?

 

[edit] P.S  I really like the ambience of that Delta Touch video you posted too. Dark and scary. Really creates a sense of space and tension. Great contrast between indoors and outdoors.

 

Edited by bLOCKbOYgAMES

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, CrbnBased said:

 

Oh boy, I didn't want the thread to devolve into something like this but here goes my opinion.

 

The whole Doom community needs to wake up and be less critical when people modify Doom or play it in alternative ways.  I'm here spouting only good things about Doom, how it's changed, and trying to spark some open discussion with people who feel the same way.  I guess I'm an outlier.

 

Nobody is doing this. You are making up a conflict that is not there.

 

What people are really saying is that what you are trying to achieve is not possible. In '93 Doom was top-of-the-line in terms of realism and atmosphere, which is why it was scary.

Times have changed. 320x200 resolution, pixel art, and MIDI metal doesn't do it anymore for horror. Those days are long gone.

Adding dynamic lights and turning the brightness down and the resolution up are not going to solve that. It might make it look a bit prettier, if that's your thing, but it will not make it atmospheric like it was then.

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10 minutes ago, CrbnBased said:

The whole Doom community needs to wake up and be less critical when people modify Doom or play it in alternative ways.  I'm here spouting only good things about Doom, how it's changed, and trying to spark some open discussion with people who feel the same way.  I guess I'm an outlier.

Alright, I'll have you know I started the day with a healthy breakfast and a nice espresso, so I'm pretty darn awake at this point. You can use whatever mods you want as much as you please, it really doesn't matter to me. But putting yourself on a pedestal for being oh so open minded because you use mods to get more mileage out of this game (Not like you're the first person to do this anyway), while you see fit to tell a community you joined most recently that they need to wake up... Not a good look in my opinion.

 

If you wanted a discussion, and I mean an actual discussion, you'd also be fine with hearing opinions you don't agree with, but it turns out you're not really interested.

 

Anyway, some of us value cohesiveness, and part of this cohesiveness is that textures, lighting and map geometry work well together. And for those of us who value cohesiveness, the notion of putting super-high-res texture mods into IWADs, which have very crude geometry by today's standards, just doesn't fly, like it or lump it. I mean just look at the first screenshot you have in the op, look at how different, quality wise, the floor texture is from the wall-textures... It's jarring. In that shot the floor looks like something straight out of a team fortress 2 custom map, while the wall texture is the typical "blurr-o-vision-texture-filtering-garbage" GZdoom produces by default ever since that fork had texture filtering. It's an instant immersion breaker, and my guess is that the only reason you don't see this is because you're playing on a smartphone. Which actually brings us full-circle: Classic Doom was visually cohesive, that's what contributed a great deal to how much of an impact it had when it got released.

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I don't think I've ever been "scared" by Doom. Even when I first played it when I was around 6/7.

 

Quake, however, scared me shitless. I still think Quake has much more capacity for scares than Doom has. It's slower, darker and generally spookier. 

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Posted (edited)

It's funny you say that because Doom was originally darker like Quake for me. I don't know what screen I had growing up (it was some kind of CRT) but it really suited the game.

 

Now that I'm older, on an LCD and can open wads I see why too- the palette is seriously unbalanced (especially the red band). Lucky for me whatever monitor I had must have been similar to id's model because it toned down the reds and smoothed out a lot of that ugly banding that's visible now.

 

 

Edit: For those unaware...

Doom's darkest red is at 26% brightness

Heretic's darkest goes down to 9%

 

I think Raven potentially had more accurate monitors

Edited by Space Marinara

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On 6/19/2019 at 11:04 AM, bLOCKbOYgAMES said:

Crbnbased I agree with you almost entirely.

 

But I want to add another factor into the mix. Exploration. This for me is a constant, I want to explore over there, find that secret but visible powerup, get all the secrets, kill all the things etc etc. And back in the day, this was motivation to overcome the terror of the unknown. And now that Doom is more action based, Exploration is a reason to overcome the levels and the monsters in a more 'action' based approach.

 

So for me, Doom still has 2 out of 3 reasons to play. Action and Exploration, but not fear.

 

Although that said, Sigil did an amazing job of creating a sense of malevolence and fear of the unknown given I am very familiar with every monster, weapon and texture in classic Doom.

 

I would love to have Doom be scary again. And I would take 'interpretation' over 'literal' to achieve that end. I agree that low resolution certainly limits the view and the ability to perceive what is out there. Even the inability to look up and down created fear of what was just out of sight above and below. So 2 ways to artificially create fear are gone in all modern games. Smoke, fog and darkness can replicate the first, and a torch cone of light, where all else is dark can replicate the latter perhaps?

 

[edit] P.S  I really like the ambience of that Delta Touch video you posted too. Dark and scary. Really creates a sense of space and tension. Great contrast between indoors and outdoors.

 

 

Yes!  Exploration is a huge way to increase tension, desperately searching for that secret door to get a powerful weapon a stage early, we've all had that moment.  

 

Sigil is great, it was hellish and creepy, with great design and I had to learn how Mr. Romero wanted me to play, very challenging and fun, haven't completed it yet.  It did have a ton of atmosphere, but John Romero oozes atmosphere, his own.

 

Thanks for compliment on the vid, if I have time soon I'll get the list of mods I'm using and link them so you can try out the combo it's ok but needs some work.  The plastic Shaders mod got pulled and I don't want to reupload it unless the maker gets credit, alas no txt file included in the download so I don't have a name of the original creator.  If anyone knows please feel free to comment, I've had others ask me about it, but I won't distribute, I know better.

 

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On 6/19/2019 at 10:35 AM, cybdmn said:

The last time I got a real nostalgia flash, which brought up memories of how it felt back then, was when I tried Calico. Seeing the Jaguar typical Doom graphics was a heartwarming moment.

 

When Doom on the Jaguar was released I couldn‘t stop playing it. Even with the not so comfortable Gamepad, it felt so grim and dark. There was always a feeling of being alone and forgotten within the hallways of the game.

 

I'll have to download it, thanks for the recommendation!

 

Oh Jaguar Doom, even though I had a PC I still wanted the Jaguar version, they did so well with the port.  Didn't know I could recreate it, that's cool!

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22 hours ago, Space Marinara said:

It's funny you say that because Doom was originally darker like Quake for me. I don't know what screen I had growing up (it was some kind of CRT) but it really suited the game.

 

Now that I'm older, on an LCD and can open wads I see why too- the palette is seriously unbalanced (especially the red band). Lucky for me whatever monitor I had must have been similar to id's model because it toned down the reds and smoothed out a lot of that ugly banding that's visible now.

 

 

Edit: For those unaware...

Doom's darkest red is at 26% brightness

Heretic's darkest goes down to 9%

 

I think Raven potentially had more accurate monitors

 

Oh yeah Quake on CRT was the only way to play, needed that contrast.  And I agree that Quake upped the ante on atmosphere, I didn't know much about Lovecraft but that atmosphere stuck with me, and the crunchy NIN soundtrack, oh yeah!

 

Where did you get the info for the brightness?  My brain craves this information.  :)

 

Now I play mostly on my phone and chromebook and I have to download a separate app just to have color adjustments and avoid black crush, but that's OLED for ya.

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:59 PM, AffanDede said:

Dark Doom and the texture pack by the same name, ambience pack, maybe Build Your Skill by WildWeasel and if I am feeling particularly crazy, Hideous Destructor. 

 

Wow Hideous Destructor is a great recommendation!  I watched Icarus Lives' review, looks infuriating, I love it, downloaded it at work and when I get a minute I'll give it a go.

 

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
On 6/18/2019 at 9:20 PM, xvertigox said:


I would definitely recommend Nihility for that. The lack of music works really well for putting you on edge. I also agree with @Woolie Wool, playing in 320x200 at 35fps adds hugely to the atmosphere. If you want to play GZDoom wads like that I'd recommend adding Vanilla Essence to the mix.

 

Thanks for the recommendation, Nihility screenshots look great!  The Vanilla Essence I looked into when the suggestion of resolution came up, can't wait to try it, downloading from your links now.  :)

 

I am editing this to apologize, I didn't mean to make the topic hot.  Just wanted to thank everyone, still getting used to forum posting again, and I'm ancient.

Edited by CrbnBased : Acknowledging that I may have posted too many times out of excitement.

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Nihility is great. But dude, 5 posts in a row lol - you can edit your post to add info instead.

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Play in a dark room with good headphones and without using saves.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2019 at 10:53 PM, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

There are no reds in Quake.

Only glorious, glorious brown.

So very true XD

 

I'll be making a thread shortly for a new palette which gives Doom the browns and dark reds I remember... A link

 

16 hours ago, CrbnBased said:

Where did you get the info for the brightness?  My brain craves this information.  :)

Open up the base wad files in an editor (try Slade for example) and look at the PLAYPAL lumps. You can click around the palette to get each entry's value. Check out the COLORMAP (and TINTTAB/FOGMAP if they have it) lumps too, that's where things start to get interesting ;)

Edited by Space Marinara

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