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Foebane72

Doom 2016 is like Robotron 2084

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The key to victory in Doom 2016 seems to me to keep moving, as the demons will always be able to get at you, no matter where you go. I tested this theory a couple of times and sure enough, all monsters eventually converged on me, even the big hulking ones like Barons and Mancubi, which looked silly when they jumped up despite their massive weight and mass, even clearing large gaps between platforms. This ultimately reminded me of the retro arcade game Robotron 2084, where you fight off wave after wave of robots that endlessly converge on your player and you have to shoot them constantly. This is gameplay at its most basic and tedious, to be honest. Yes, the Imps will sometimes evade your shots, but for the most part, the demons are just bullet sponges who always lunge at you directly or fire weapons. In an enclosed area, this can be especially annoying, and whilst Classic Doom monsters also behaved this way, they were sometimes limited in their mobility by being on a high platform or whatever, and all they could do is walk or run, never jump or climb.

 

What do you all think about this cheap gameplay tactic? Have you seen the demons always get you, no matter what, and perform ridiculous acts in the process?

 

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I seem to recall the Mancubi having rockets for jumping? Otherwise the other monsters all have strong enough hindquarters for jumping.

As to their mindless behaviour- it's what I'd expect from demons hellbent on killing you. No fear of death, they'll see you in another life.

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That's another thing: the Hordes of Hell are meant to be TERRIFIED of the Doomslayer, and yet they relentlessly go after him! Where's their sense of preservation? They should be running away and hiding, but they're not. These truly are stupid monsters. Where's the joy and satisfaction in killing completely stupid, dumb monsters?

 

I hate this dumbed-down console game. The previous Dooms were infinitely better.

 

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I think their fear is more of what you can do, such as closing their portal or whatever. Anyway, history is full of examples where one party will attack another out of fear.

I don't see the satisfation of hunting down monsters that are running scared like chickens either, that doesn't provide any challenge.

 

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The previous Dooms were infinitely better.

Excluding Doom3? ;)

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Certainly NOT excluding Doom 3. I prefer Doom 3 to Doom 2016, for many reasons. At least id tried something new, and most of the original people were there. And I just LUUUUURVE id Tech 4, I've been praising it to this very day.

 

It was a sorry state of affairs when Zenimax took over id Software, they've just never been the same since, and they've been "consolised". I haven't really liked anything they've done under this management, including Rage and Doom 3 BFG. I'm torn with Doom 2016 cos I like fancy 3D engines and id Tech 6 is interesting, but I don't like the "push forward" combat style at all in the gameplay, together with many other factors.

 

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Yeah my experience with Doom3 is the BFG version on Xbox and the controls felt terrible. It didn't help that I was playing Alien: Isolation at the same time (still am!) and it feels like a far superior game.

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3 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

That's another thing: the Hordes of Hell are meant to be TERRIFIED of the Doomslayer, and yet they relentlessly go after him! Where's their sense of preservation? They should be running away and hiding, but they're not. These truly are stupid monsters. Where's the joy and satisfaction in killing completely stupid, dumb monsters?

I mean, I read many a hot take in my time, but thinking that a game about fighting demons would get elevated if the demons just ran away while pissing themselves... that's just golden. In literally every doom game monsters usually come your way and try to kill you, save for a few "scripted" exceptions, but somehow in doom16 it becomes a problem that monsters did what they always have done, because you can't cheese fights by way of camping anymore? Wait, aren't you supposed to be the scary one here and murder dem demonz gud instead of camping anyway?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

These truly are stupid monsters. Where's the joy and satisfaction in killing completely stupid, dumb monsters?

 

The previous Dooms were infinitely better.

The monsters in past games just blindly walk to you regardless how well armed you are and how big their forces are. Their AI isn't very good aside of occasionally feigning their direction. These demons would also kill each other first before focusing on the player again. Suddenly this is a problem in DOOM (2016) because now every monster is running to you instead of slowing walking? Because gameplay focusing on aggressive movement is bad even though some mapsets kind of emphasize that too (in different ways but still)?

Edited by Erick

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Maybe it's my age (almost 47) but my reflexes aren't as fast as they were, and I sometimes found the relentless onslaught of demons almost too much, especially on the later levels. The demons in Doom 1/2/Final chased you, yes, but their attacks weren't as ferocious as they are in 2016, nor could they follow you absolutely everywhere. I personally hate the 2016 Imps with their extremely fast and accurate fireballs compared to the originals, as well as their dodging and climbing up to get away from you (yes, they do that). Other monsters like Barons and Knights were also nothing like the originals, jumping around like fleas. I particularly hated those zombie soldiers with the energy shields, and the number of times I had to whisk around behind their shields to shoot them was annoying. Then again, the Pinkies were fun cos they were so stupid with their mindless charges.

 

Doom 1/2/Final's demons were fun to fight, as I could usually outrun them and look for supplies, before coming back to the fray. And the infighting was the best part. I also liked the fact that those games totally eschewed jumping and crouching, making combat simple but still challenging. Now Doom 2016 totally goes the opposite with excess jumping, the jumping puzzles, especially that damn Argent Tower, and I hear there will be testier puzzles in Eternal?? Not to mention the other Eternal "enhancements" which will complicate gameplay too much. At least the first three Doom games were relatively SIMPLE but FUN.

 

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1 hour ago, Erick said:

Their AI isn't very good aside of occasionally feigning their direction

That's not even a thing they do. What you're probably noticing is simply the absence of turn acceleration, they face their target instantly. They are extremely extremely simple. No AI pathfinding, no special logic for handling specific player conditions (aside from the invisibility sphere which randomises their facing/shooting angle), just a simple A* movement pattern and basic frame table logic. 

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3 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

I sometimes found the relentless onslaught of demons almost too much, especially on the later levels.

[...]

At least the first three Doom games were relatively SIMPLE but FUN.

Alright, what your position quintessentially boils down to is:

 

-You don't want a fast paced game (never mind that later plutonia maps punished being too slow, and don't get me started on "go 2 it", or any icon of sin type map)

-You don't want platforming (but doom 2 [chasm!] and doom1 had platforming sections, and Mt.Erebus even had an intended rocket jump to reach the secret exit)

-You don't want puzzles (never mind that tnt map 30 also kinda had a puzzle in it, in fact even "house of pain" had a very rudimentary puzzle)

-You don't want to learn new things in general

-And therefore you feel like shitting on an overall pretty decent and well received game


I'd say that pretty much sums it up.

 

You know what? I'm not the biggest fan of Doom'16 either, I simply prefer the classics, in part because it's easy to find or create new content for those that still feels fresh. But having said that, the reasons why you don't like doom'16 are pretty much all on you. Yeah the game isn't "flawless", no game is anyway, but grindy or "tedious" are certainly descriptors which are more suitable for stuff like E3M1, where you're not even given enough shotgun shells to deal with the corridor pinkies and the cacodemons prior. Add to that several instances where you had to take down for example barons with chaingun or shotgun, or the ever so tedious "rocket-off" in E2M8 against an entirely harmless cyberdemon, and you have yourself some actual grind against real bullet sponges... None of which are things I can fault Doom'16 for, in spite of the many "arena fights", just for the record.

 

My point in a nutshell is that Doom'16 does things Doom has always done (even doom 3 had some platforming, in case you forgot), but it does these things in ways you don't like. Does that make it a bad game that's worth developing a hate-boner for? I think not. As for the gameplay, Doom'16 feels much more like a logical progression of "modern mapping for classic Doom" than Doom 3 ever did.

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5 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

Maybe it's my age (almost 47) but my reflexes aren't as fast as they were, and I sometimes found the relentless onslaught of demons almost too much, especially on the later levels.

 

What difficulty did u play Doom 2016 on. There is nothing wrong with playing on a easier difficulty.

 

5 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

 I particularly hated those zombie soldiers with the energy shields, and the number of times I had to whisk around behind their shields to shoot them was annoying.

 

There are only like a dozen of those shield zombies in the entire game. And u can use the "explosive shot" mod of the shotgun to kill them easily.

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-And therefore you feel like shitting on an overall pretty decent and well received game

 

I may be in the minority, but they do exist, and they feel very much like I did. I also did this for Half-Life 2, I don't know why people praise that game to the hilt, I was severely disappointed by it.

 

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What difficulty did u play Doom 2016 on. There is nothing wrong with playing on a easier difficulty.

 

The easiest, of course. I'm honestly baffled by those countless people who get a new game like this and insist on playing it on the hardest difficulty first go - I mean, do they WANT to chuck their PC out of the window when they lose their tempers after dying for the millionth time??

 

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There are only like a dozen of those shield zombies in the entire game. And u can use the "explosive shot" mod of the shotgun to kill them easily.

 

There are a LOT more than a dozen of them in the game, more like SEVERAL dozen. And I never knew that the explosive shot would finish them off.

 

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41 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I may be in the minority, but they do exist, and they feel very much like I did. I also did this for Half-Life 2, I don't know why people praise that game to the hilt, I was severely disappointed by it.

Irrelevant. When it comes to something that needs to sell, the minority is wrong by virtue of being the minority, and that's the end of that.

 

43 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

The easiest, of course. I'm honestly baffled by those countless people who get a new game like this and insist on playing it on the hardest difficulty first go - I mean, do they WANT to chuck their PC out of the window when they lose their tempers after dying for the millionth time??

 

In case you hadn't noticed, your entire conjumbulation of easily proven to be wrong "arguments" (because why else would you cherry pick just one of the points I brought up instead of adressing all of them properly?) just reeks of "I suck at video games, and therefore I don't like video games that require me to not suck". It's the quintessential subtext of your ramblings here.

 

Doom'16 gameplay isn't anywhere near as basic, cheap or tedious as you'd like to make it look, the reality most likely is - and I'd be willing to bet money on this one - it's tedious for you, because you keep dying time and time again, forcing you to repeat fights time and time again. How do I know this you wonder? Because I've been hearing the very same arguments in different contexts on this forum for almost exactly 3 years by now. Also, I've been there myself, I wanted to learn new things quick, so I picked a "big boy map" to practice, and guess what? Some stuff felt pretty repetitive to me. But, the difference between you and me is that I have the common decency to admit where my bias comes from, instead of shitting all over something that is generally considered to be an actually fine map that still holds up after almost a decade. Here's proof:

 

Let me treat you to a nice dose of reality: Doom16 has been beaten on ultra nightmare less than a week after its release. It took somebody else a mere week to master the game to a high enough degree to accomplish a full ultra-nightmare run. Fast forward about 3 years or so, and here we are, having a non-discussion with a person in their late 40ies, who somehow still aren't mature enough to admit to themselves that they either need to work on their skillset (because complaining generally solves nothing at all), or simply take it on the chin like grown-up person, and accept that some games aren't meant to cater to their preferences. And by the way, that excuse wrt your age is quite cute indeed, we have people in this community who are older than you, and one of those guys is doing pretty nice speedruns, too.

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You're right, maybe the game doesn't cater to my preferences compared to others in the series. And also, maybe I just grew bored of the repetitive nature of it, and I read elsewhere that glory killing isn't always required, and I realised that when playing this time. I haven't properly played Doom 1-3 for years, I just pop in and load the odd map from cheats or the console and blast away until I die, from time to time. Maybe because I've mastered Doom 1 and 2 (at least on U-V), I've grown bored of them, too, but I keep them around. Doom 3, I never quite played all the way through, at least in one sequential order, but I marvelled at its visuals and atmosphere. I really marvelled at Doom 2016 as well, and I completed it at least once (lots of dying over and over again against the Spider Mastermind) but I beat it, even if it was on the easiest difficulty. I played through it a second time, but grew bored of it.

 

You're also right about my age: I thought my reflexes were growing soft and slow, but that's not the case. As you said, maybe I just need more practice, as I've revisited a few online multiplayer games I left behind years ago when I did very well indeed, and lately found my ass handed to me upon returning years later: they've obviously mastered their game.

 

Perhaps I'm not as committed a gamer as I used to be, and am just casual these days?

 

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Posted (edited)

I'd even say Doom 2016 is like Pong but you don't bounce the ball, but shoot the ball, and the ball is bullets, and the point isn't to miss the opponent, but hit them.

I mean, so much anger in you that it kinda seems ridiculous. I very much dislike Doom 3 and I criticize it often and with passion, but there's a difference between critique and downright hate. Yeah, games are overcomplicated now, have too many systems, they're not that fun. I agree. Don't like it either? Play the unending stream of WADs. Or grab Project Warlock or Dusk or tons of other good games out there. Doom is a cashable brand. Don't expect the new games to be toned down. They're better than they had the right to be anyway. What's your goal? What do you achieve being this angry?

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You seemed to take Doom 2016 almost like a personal insult. I find the game slightly dull despite all the action, mostly due to it relying only on action. There is no clever map design, although it's 1000x better than in other modern games. But the series evolves, I hardly expect it to be similar to what we had in the 90s, although I'd love literally more of the same thing, even without overdone visuals. As for difficulty levels, the speed is what makes higher levels not work. The original Doom was perfectly balanced in this regard - fast, but you could slow down and think what next. Here, you are expected to act even faster. I dislike it.

 

But whatever, the good times already were. Good thing classic games still exist. Also, I have high hopes for Ion Maiden.

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8 hours ago, Szuran said:

You seemed to take Doom 2016 almost like a personal insult.

 

I sort of do. ;)

 

Maybe it's just the Doom franchise evolving, but I didn't like the way that Doom 2016 rewrote the Doom lore from Doom 3, even supposedly rejecting it whilst using several concepts from it, like Mixom, the interfaces, the Soulcube (in a cameo) and the idea of an insane UAC worker bringing the demons into our world (Pierce is basically Bertruger, for example). Doom 1 and 2 were simple but addictive arcade shooters that defined a gaming generation, whilst to me, Doom 3 was the high watermark and evolution of this tech series (which it is) for many more years. But Doom 3 was divisive, and I suppose Bethesda (spits) wanted to bring the franchise back to pure action combat rather than atmosphere and horror, and so, here we are.

 

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That's an interesting opinion. I like the immersion of Doom 3, in the first half at least, but this game, to me, takes itself too seriously for its own good. It just becomes boring, but I think the game is just too long for the formula it adopted. You can't expect gamers to endlessly enjoy walking down narrow corridors and getting attacked from behind. And Hell, for me, was extremely underwhelming, it was barren, monotonous, and the design was at times downright mean with ambush after ambush.

 

I love the quote for the new Doom's director: original Doom is like something you'd scribe in the back of your notebook during a boring lesson. I think this is so true, and Doom 2016 shares this value. If only the design was a bit better, a bit less arena-based.

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2 hours ago, Szuran said:

That's an interesting opinion. I like the immersion of Doom 3, in the first half at least, but this game, to me, takes itself too seriously for its own good. It just becomes boring, but I think the game is just too long for the formula it adopted. You can't expect gamers to endlessly enjoy walking down narrow corridors and getting attacked from behind. And Hell, for me, was extremely underwhelming, it was barren, monotonous, and the design was at times downright mean with ambush after ambush.

 

I love the quote for the new Doom's director: original Doom is like something you'd scribe in the back of your notebook during a boring lesson. I think this is so true, and Doom 2016 shares this value. If only the design was a bit better, a bit less arena-based.

 

1st para: I'm glad we agree- Oh, I thought you were talking about Doom 2016 ;)

 

2nd para: I agree with your last sentence about the arenas, the UAC and Hell environments feel more like gladiatorial arenas, especially where the Gorenests are. Every time I see one of those, I have to get myself psyched, saying "here we go again".

 

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Doom 2016 is a bit like "oh boy I can't wait for the good part". When I play a standard level, I miss arenas because levels aren't designed well and everything blends into a blurry overly detailed mess of monotone colors. When I'm playing an arena, I want to go back to level exploration. It's kinda true for me in Doom 3 as well. "I can't wait to go to hell. Oh boy now I can't wait to go back to the base."


Meanwhile, when I play the OG Doom, it's just "I'm having fun right now."

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