WAD Progression for Skill Improvement

[Budoka]

Speed of Doom and Resurgence have somehow not been discussed yet. I think they'd fit perfectly between Alien vendetta and Sunder.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, Budoka said:

Speed of Doom and Resurgence have somehow not been discussed yet. I think they'd fit perfectly between Alien vendetta and Sunder.

 

I brought SoD up :p.

 

I'd also add Darkest Room but I dunno, it's a single map wad but total SoD worship.

[Reisal]

I know this doesn't matter as much but..

Difficulty Varies: Using OBLIGE (and its unofficial addon ObAddon on top of it, a must-have for OBLIGE enthusiasts or those to keep their skills sharp with something new and random each time)

[Spectre01]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:36 AM, GarrettChan said:

I would say Ancient Aliens and Valiant are approximately the same difficult level, but I would rate Valiant a little bit harder. The funny thing is that, the time I can beat AA/Valiant, I can't beat Scythe Map30, so it's another thing to be considered, I guess.

Scythe probably has the highest difficulty variation between the easiest and hardest map of any popular wad. map30 is just a beast of a map compared to everything before it.

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

Scythe probably has the highest difficulty variation between the easiest and hardest map of any popular wad. map30 is just a beast of a map compared to everything before it.

I can definitely attest to sythe map 30, quite a nailbiter while you're still learning the ropes. Another WAD worth mentioning for hard-ish to hard ranks of difficulty would be "eaxt", also by erik alm. If you liked Scythe's harder maps it's a must-play.

[Magicana]

12 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

Scythe probably has the highest difficulty variation between the easiest and hardest map of any popular wad. map30 is just a beast of a map compared to everything before it.

 

Takes less than a minute on UV though... If you already know the way to go.

[Nine Inch Heels]

29 minutes ago, Magicana said:

 

Takes less than a minute on UV though... If you already know the way to go.

to be fair, you'll sing a whole different song if you try to max the map. But perhaps it's good to bring this up anyway, because there's not just the difficulty of speeding a map, but also the difficulty of maxing a map... And then there are entirely monsterless maps, which are still hard. Perhaps it's best to confine this thread to how difficult it is to max a map.

[xvertigox]

12 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

to be fair, you'll sing a whole different song if you try to max the map. But perhaps it's good to bring this up anyway, because there's not just the difficulty of speeding a map, but also the difficulty of maxing a map... And then there are entirely monsterless maps, which are still hard. Perhaps it's best to confine this thread to how difficult it is to max a map.

My thoughts exactly. If it was about speed then map difficulty could be measured by glide / rj difficulty rather than standard play. That's why all the playthroughs I've linked are UV max runs.

[DuckReconMajor]

I generally see rocket jumping, SR50 jumps, glides, and pre-map knowledge in the same wheelhouse as just good ol doomin' skills. I've always preferred UV-speed and think that if you hit the exit switch, that's enough.

 

If you know the way to go in Scythe MAP30, then you've either played it before, or you've watched demos. Either of which I think should count towards your level of skill.

[Magicana]

27 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

to be fair, you'll sing a whole different song if you try to max the map. But perhaps it's good to bring this up anyway, because there's not just the difficulty of speeding a map, but also the difficulty of maxing a map... And then there are entirely monsterless maps, which are still hard. Perhaps it's best to confine this thread to how difficult it is to max a map.

 

Oh definitely, I was being a bit of a jerk with my comment - I've never even tried to run the entire map it's that hard (Although I've since played maps that were far harder, so might be worth a revisit).

[xvertigox]

25 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I generally see rocket jumping, SR50 jumps, glides, and pre-map knowledge in the same wheelhouse as just good ol doomin' skills. I've always preferred UV-speed and think that if you hit the exit switch, that's enough.

 

If you know the way to go in Scythe MAP30, then you've either played it before, or you've watched demos. Either of which I think should count towards your level of skill.

 

Same here, it comes with the territory of being 'good'. In the context of this thread though I think that the way to approach them is to include WADs that require SR50 (for example) rather than assume that people will learn it for skips on other maps.

[Poncho1]

Popping back for a suggestion: some of Ribbiks' (sometimes collaborating with dannebubinga) gimmick WADs like Italo Doom, and his Frog trilogy are really fucking tough. Seriously, Map01 of ID starts you in front of 4 Cybers and a few AVs. The recommended difficulty is UV, since the lower difficulties have no enemies (well, Map01 has 23 Cybers which makes it basically impossible). Hopefully you got all that! 

 

I do object to AA and Valiant being tougher than HR, though. I know HR is 20+ years old and has been out-difficultied by now, but I think AA and V are much more forgiving, mostly since they were developed when balanced difficulty was pretty much a rule for mainstream mappers. 

[xvertigox]

1 hour ago, Poncho1 said:

I do object to AA and Valiant being tougher than HR, though. I know HR is 20+ years old and has been out-difficultied by now, but I think AA and V are much more forgiving, mostly since they were developed when balanced difficulty was pretty much a rule for mainstream mappers. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions. What do others think about the ordering? Does it make more sense to go AA > Valiant > HR?

[seed]

40 minutes ago, xvertigox said:

Thanks for the suggestions. What do others think about the ordering? Does it make more sense to go AA > Valiant > HR?

 

Yes.

[xvertigox]

18 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Yes.

 

Thanks, updated. I'm adding a bunch of wads now that I don't have heaps of experience with so if you notice other glaring issues lemme know.

[Poncho1]

5 hours ago, xvertigox said:

 

Thanks for the suggestions. What do others think about the ordering? Does it make more sense to go AA > Valiant > HR?

I understand that this is anecdotal, but yes, I'd say Valiant is *slightly* harder than AA.

 

[Edit] Okay, I apologise for being a complete nuisance and seemingly critiquing the entire list, but I *personally* consider Scythe 2 to be more difficult that AA and Valiant. Don't take my word though, it'd be best to consult some others (like rdwpa, NIN, etc.). Just my 2 cents.

[Martin-CAI]

Thank you so much for making this thread! I've been looking for something like that so I can just play the hardest WADs without trying tons of them. 

[GarrettChan]

19 hours ago, Spectre01 said:

Scythe probably has the highest difficulty variation between the easiest and hardest map of any popular wad. map30 is just a beast of a map compared to everything before it.

Yeah, I agree. The thing is that there should be a standard comparing difficulty, or at least a guideline or something. Should be compare the average difficulty or the hardest map, something like that. Also, there are some weird maps and you don't know where to put it. A good example will be Doom 2 Map24.

[xvertigox]

9 hours ago, Poncho1 said:

I *personally* consider Scythe 2 to be more difficult that AA and Valiant. Don't take my word though, it'd be best to consult some others (like rdwpa, NIN, etc.). Just my 2 cents.

 

Same here, that's sort of what I was alluding to when referencing 'glaring mistakes'. I've moved it now and if people disagree it can be moved again.

[Roofi]

Scythe 2 is definitely harder than AA and Valiant for me too. To be more accurate , Scythe 2 has really hard levels to complete on pistol-start (map 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 and 29). The map 30 was quite easy to be honest but require an arch-vile jump to be completed on uv-max. The plasma marine was also one of the most unfair custom monster I have ever seen. Reaching the secret exit in map 31 was just horrible.

[Budoka]

As in, you actually did that ? I've never seen anyone pull it off, ever. Not in any of the Scythe 2 playthroughs I've watched. Anyway, I was trying of a way to include Going Down in this scale, but I don't know exactly where. It really is an odd one.

[ChicagoTrash]

What about Nuts? You have to buy a fucking super computer just to run it. Nuts is the hardest.

[Nine Inch Heels]

17 hours ago, Poncho1 said:

[Edit] Okay, I apologise for being a complete nuisance and seemingly critiquing the entire list, but I *personally* consider Scythe 2 to be more difficult that AA and Valiant. Don't take my word though, it'd be best to consult some others (like rdwpa, NIN, etc.). Just my 2 cents.

 

7 hours ago, Roofi said:

Scythe 2 is definitely harder than AA and Valiant for me too. To be more accurate , Scythe 2 has really hard levels to complete on pistol-start (map 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 and 29).

I kinda agree here, but at the same time I feel like scythe2's first 2/3rds are somewhat similar to AA/Va overall, based on what I remember from it. Hard to tell for me how much of a difference there really is, I'd probably have to play scythe2 again (which I kinda don't feel like doing), but sure, the later maps tend to have quite dickish ambushes and some heavy weight thrown in.

 

Maybe as a compromise put scythe 2 above AA/Va on the difficulty scale, but with the caveat that it's due to the later maps in the megaWAD, and not so much due to the overall difficulty?

[Nine Inch Heels]

4 minutes ago, ChicagoTrash said:

What about Nuts? You have to buy a fucking super computer just to run it. Nuts is the hardest.

Nah, it ain't. It's nowhere near the hardest map, and it definitely isn't any good for developing skills. If you wanna practice circle strafing, do that elsewhere, preferably in a map that requires more than just that.

[xvertigox]

@Nine Inch Heels Added Scythe 2 caveat.

I added MM and put it before Plutionia, if anyone objects let me know.

 

@Simomarchi Quality is a definitely a factor. I'll check the map out and see what's up.

 

Where would DV 1/2 lie? Between SoD and Sunlust?

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, xvertigox said:

Where would DV 1/2 lie? Between SoD and Sunlust?

I'd say so, yeah

[GarrettChan]

23 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Nah, it ain't. It's nowhere near the hardest map, and it definitely isn't any good for developing skills. If you wanna practice circle strafing, do that elsewhere, preferably in a map that requires more than just that.

Nuts is just going for silly design, not really hard in any situation.

[Poncho1]

Now I'm not sure about the legitimacy of this WAD, but is Chillax a good shout? Since the maps are technically possible to beat... 

[Roofi]

5 minutes ago, Poncho1 said:

Now I'm not sure about the legitimacy of this WAD, but is Chillax a good shout? Since the maps are technically possible to beat... 

 

Not really I think. Chillax maps are designed for coop and were stolen from other wads (PHMLspd...).

 

So , I want to mention "PHMLspd" which is a good wad to initiate yourself into slaughter wads.

[Spectre01]

I'm getting a feeling this will eventually morph into the list of hard wads thread.

Also, I feel like Speed of Doom is too high on the "difficulty scale". Due to the rather short nature of the maps, most are easier to no-save than the tougher AV or Scythe 2 maps. At least that's my opinion; I don't know if we're judging these based on maxing or casual play.