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WAD Progression for Skill Improvement

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This is an awesome thread, great idea!

 

Would it be unfair to say that the overall selection seems skewed towards harder and more modern stuff? That's my only objection, and I think there might be some "too tough too soon" going on. There's a lot of notable releases out there that fall somewhere in the middle or towards the front of the list in terms of difficulty. The spike I'm seeing is specifically at the Plutonia point, Scythe notwithstanding. (Well, aside from the last couple maps, which are a significant ramp..)

 

EDIT that I decided to move to the top: Now that I'm thinking about it, the big problem I see with a list like this is that it's at a point where including anything else risks making it an untamable behemoth, BUT, as it is now, there's a bunch of important, popular, super fun releases that are being skipped over..

 

Perhaps it's worth coming up with difficulty tiers instead of a strict list? Tier 'A' through 'F' or 1 to 5 or something in terms of hardness? This could prove to be far more inclusive for the history, as well as the future of Doom WADs. I'm honestly shocked that "agreed upon tier lists of difficulty" aren't already a thing in the community. Or, if it is, I don't know of it. What do all of you think? It would be fun to have a bigass table that includes all the popular episodes/megawads which is sorted by difficulty!

 

(now back to the old post)

 

Here are a few classic-style sets for consideration, stuff that I really like that won't scare the bib-wearing Doomers, sorted in order of how hard I remember them being:

 

Icarus https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/TeamTNT/icarus/icarus

Coffee Break https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/a-c/cafebrk1

Biowar https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/biowar

Mars War https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/marsw301

Doom 404 https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/doom404

Requiem https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/requiem

Doom64 for Doom2 https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/d64d2

Equinox https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/d-f/equinox

THT: Threnody https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/thtthren

STRAIN https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/strain10    Repacked here: https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/megawads/strain

Japanese Community Project https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/jpcp

Mutiny https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/mutiny

 

I only included releases that had substantial popularity, some of which seem to have been forgotten by the Dooming collective in recent times. Basically all of these should be placed at some point before Plutonia, that is IF I'm recalling their toughness accurately.. It's been a while.

 

I feel that the inclusion of some of these wads will make the list more accessible for the common Doomer, thus helping to achieve the goal of making a general populous of IRON-DOOMERS. (lol). Not only does a more gradual incline make learning a bit easier, but.. This list is in serious need of a 90's injection! :B

 

 

Edited by Doomkid

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Thank you @Doomkid. I was mentioning earlier in the thread I wished there were more wads listed on the easier side. If you know others I think it's worth listing them, regardless of popularity.

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Maybe it's just me, but I find Plutonia's difficulty grossly overrated, having played Memento Mori and Sigil, I think both are harder. This is coming from the perspective of a continuous max playthrough on Ultra-Violence, so from a pistol-start (like it's intended from the OP) it might be different, I'll have to check at a later time.

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20 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Here are a few classic-style sets for consideration, stuff that I really like that won't scare the bib-wearing Doomers, sorted in order of how hard I remember them being:

 

Depending on which end of the list is supposed to be the 'easy' one, either Icarus or STRAIN is way out of order :)

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Well I played Icarus continuously not too long ago, 3-4 years or something, and it wasn’t too tough.. The last time I actually played through strain was years ago though and back then I used to abuse IDFA and still count it as a play through, so I was really just guessing with it’s placement! I know it’s cool enough to be worth directing people to though

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Hallo, 

I agree, nice thread, lots of content. So many levels I haven't played yet, I remember some names of some wad files listed above. The walk-through-videos are fun to watch. I'll need some proper hardware to get my hands on this stuff. No idea how this will work on my Nintendo Switch. 

If anybody having problems getting the files listed above too, Google will help you out. 

Mfg

Edited by KickAss

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@Doomkid This is something I've been going back on forth on for a while. I do want this to be a (fairly) succinct list made for improving quickly but having the wads divided into relative tiers is also useful. What I'll do is have two separate posts in this thread, one for each. Thanks for the input.

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10 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Well I played Icarus continuously not too long ago, 3-4 years or something, and it wasn’t too tough..

 

My point was that both it and STRAIN should be at the easy end :)

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This is just a bit of an opinion about this list and a few wads that I think are out of place.

 

I agree with the first places up until memento mori, while MM is a super classic and a must play imo for it's historic relevance, it definitely shows it's age and I would put the much more polished mm2 in it's place, I think both are about equal difficulty.

 

Scythe is the next weird wad cause you visit almost all of the difficulty spectrum in it's level, the first 10 level are as easy if not easier than doom2, while ep3 would be placed at least above SoD. This is one of the most influential wads of all time and a must play but in a list like this? I don't know.

 

Next one is hr. I think it's a few places too high in the list, it got only a handfull hard maps, the hardest ones to max being map30. map26 and map24 (in that order), but the rest of the wad is rather easy, I would place it below rush difficulty. And I don't want to repeat myself but this wad really is a must play and one of the best wads ever.

 

Scythe 2 has the same problem as Scythe and I feel it got it's position only cause of the last 7 maps.

 

Combat shock 2 and Sunder are a bit too similar but I can't which wad should be removed, Sunder is the father of modern slaughterwads but sc2 is much more polished, maybe it allows the player to work more into skillfully approaching fights?, cause in Sunder you can do a whole lot of cheeses but at least from what I've seen in Sunder streams the average player is unaware of cheeses that are obvious to the eye of speedrunners, anyway if both wads are to stay in the list I would place Sunder as easier than combat shock 2.

 

I think many people overestimate the difficulty of Italo doom, ok it got a wad that forces sr50, ok it got some fights where you honestly need a bit of luck to survive and very often once you manage to find the way to survive you will manage to do it in a few attempts, meanwhile nochance is a map that seems to be underestimated (and I am seeing it uses the 3rd hardest spot in the list), the true difficulty of Nochance is not it's fights that you can usually cheese, but the obnoxiously placed ranged monsters that you can't kill until very late in the map and the limited resources, while Italo throws megas and enough ammo to do every one of it's fight, plus nochance can have a place as the maximum challenge to complete saveless :)

 

About Dimensions it's hard to recommend it, with nochance I think a skilled player has a good chance to complete it in 1 go (after studying the map), but dimensions there is absolutely no way and it's one of the few wads where I can say that luck is needed at almost every fight, and I think that is not the point of the list, maybe Dimensions on HMP can still have the same spot but HMP was designed to be able to be completed close to 100% of the time by mrzzul (so it's still some bs difficulty :), but I would not recommend UV as a test or anything.

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5 hours ago, Ancalagon said:

And I don't want to repeat myself but this wad really is a must play and one of the best wads ever.

I'm glad to hear this. I've always liked HR for some reason (though I never finished it), but I've heard negative things about it recently, though that might have just been kids on YouTube i don't remember.

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22 hours ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I'm glad to hear this. I've always liked HR for some reason (though I never finished it), but I've heard negative things about it recently, though that might have just been kids on YouTube i don't remember.

I think what annoys most people about Hell Revealed is the unapologetic baron spam and the dull first episode, otherwise it's a very solid set and really fun to play through!

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HR is great as it is, I'm really liking the original as well, and it's a must play in my book. On par with AV.

 

HR2 on the other hand is beyond mediocre. The first half is full of maps that are ugly as fuck and unfun. Even later on when things get significantly better, the enemy usage feels like pure spam to me sometimes. It doesn't hold a candle to the original.

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This is a great discussion; I love threads like this.

 

So where would stuff like Crusades or Slayer fit in?   I'm guessing somewhere in the middle or just below middle, with Crusades being considered the harder of the two.

 

Also what about maps like Hellrun or Castle of Evil which I consider great maps to practice on?  They're not terribly hard unless you try to max it in one go, then they become complicated.   

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Thanks a ton for this! As a new player who wants to get quick fast, this post is an absoloute godsend. Ive beaten all the original games, sigil and eviternity all on uv pistol start, and I started scythe after being recommended it on reddit. 
So I think I might jump into the trial by fire that is Hell Revealed soon!

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I think Deus Vult 2 needs to go down a bit. It doesn't really belong in the same category, difficulty speaking as some of the big slaughter names and is DEFINITELY not harder than sunder by any stretch of the imagination, especially the new maps.

 

Most fights in DVII took me one or two tries first time, while the hardest fights in sunder took me 10 or 15 tries first time

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I'm working my way through these with pistol start now. Awesome guide. I've made so much progress from save scumming with Brutal Doom. No hate intended. :)

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Bit of a necrobump but I've made a small change in moving DV2 to be easier than Sunder. Hopefully some newer players will see this thread and it'll help them improve.

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Greetings & necrobump. I found this thread to be very interesting. Registered w/ the purpose of trying to follow this guide because I want to "git gud". I will do my best to document my progression to see if this really did help & OP's efforts (& everyone else who contributed) are not done in vain. 

 

Currently using: Eternity v4.01.00, DML 2.0, PK_SFX & Weapons animations

Recently completed DooM II > Pistal Starts > UV > No saves

It was a good crash course on getting used to PS/No Saves. I would say Map09  The Pit was when I hit my first wall. I ended up having to limit Lost Souls in the options & was able to get through it. Map14 Downtown was another tough one for me. Was initially geting the beserk 1st then trying to play punch out in the main building. Ended up watching & using Decino's strats of getting the Rocketlauncher 1st, then Chaingun, then BFG, & it was A LOT easier. Then there was Barrels O Fun... SMH. Ended up just trying to wake everything up to the pinkies & causing as much chaos & then hoping I survived. It worked.  The rest of DII wasn't too bad.

 

Currently working on Base Gamymede. My impressions so far: ran through the first 2 levels blind & completed them first try, albeit a little low on health, but still a lot of fun. First wall: Map03 w/  249 enemies. Finally got through it all & now on Map05. Base Gamymede UV/PS is doing a really good job of getting me comfortable w/ the idea of being at low on health & ammo while not completely freaking out. Doing pistol starts really has put a new perspective on Doom for me. It's like a mix of Bullet Hell Shooters & Survival Horror.

 

Anyways I will try to keep updating w/ the hopes that maybe some Eldest Doomers will help with strats/feedback & maybe some newbies will jump in & share their progress as well. Cheers

Edited by VVarp_SpaSm

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I'm playing through Scythe on UV pistol starts with no saves (except for practice runs), going for 100% kills. I started this wad several months back right after I beat Plutonia, but I quit when I hit a wall in map 22 

 

After few more wads under my belt (albeit much easier ones), I decided to give scythe another go. I brute forced my way through maps 22-26, but I have hit another wall in map 27. This map is very doable but I am always dying to some bullshit. Twice I died to the final cyberdemon because I couldn't see his rockets in the dimly lit hallway. I know I can beat it if I grind enough. 

 

Anyway, I tried map 28 and it pretty much looks impossible for my skill level. I'm pretty sure map 30 is also way beyond my reach. I really doubt I can complete this wad. 

 

Is this it? Have I really hit my skill ceiling so soon? How am I supposed to beat wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta if I can't even beat Scythe?

 

Edit- Finally beat Map 27. I made it seem way harder than it actually is

Edited by paturn

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24 minutes ago, paturn said:

I'm playing through Scythe on UV pistol starts with no saves (except for practice runs), going for 100% kills. I started this wad several months back right after I beat Plutonia, but I quit when I hit a wall in map 22 

 

After few more wads under my belt (albeit much easier ones), I decided to give scythe another go. I brute forced my way through maps 22-26, but I have hit another wall in map 27. This map is very doable but I am always dying to some bullshit. Twice I died to the final cyberdemon because I couldn't see his rockets in the dimly lit hallway. I know I can beat it if I grind enough. 

 

Anyway, I tried map 28 and it pretty much looks impossible for my skill level. I'm pretty sure map 30 is also way beyond my reach. I really doubt I can complete this wad. 

 

Is this it? Have I really hit my skill ceiling so soon? How am I supposed to beat wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta if I can't even beat Scythe?

 

I think it took me like 100 attempts to do Scythe map28 when I played it, and it certainly wasn't 100% kills (don't worry about max kills on this map, it would be easier to do pretty much any map in HR or AV). A large number of attempts isn't a big deal for such a short run, and it's normal for speedrunning (which is the only way to play map28 of Scythe). Also, the skillset which map28 tests is not very relevant to even the hardest maps in HR or AV.  Regarding map30, even now, I've never done a saveless UV-Max of it (probably could with practice, but I don't want to). For the sake of skill improvement, I think the most important thing is that you keep playing Doom and challenging yourself, and if things get ridiculous, there's no need to strictly stay with just one megawad until you've done it all without saves. Most of the maps in AV and HR are easier than Scythe's map30.

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1 hour ago, paturn said:

Anyway, I tried map 28 and it pretty much looks impossible for my skill level. I'm pretty sure map 30 is also way beyond my reach. I really doubt I can complete this wad.

28 pretty much tests if you can straferun properly for 30 seconds without falling off. You can safely kill a few annoying enemies from the starting room before the timer starts, then ignore killing enemies unless they block you like the spider before the exit.

 

30 is just an all around a hard map to max. Only thing I can suggest is watching some successful runs of it to see which routes people take.

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1 hour ago, Pseudonaut said:

*Some good advice*

 

47 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

*Some more good advice*

You know what? I'm not even gonna bother with 100% kills in map 28. It seems like something only top speedrunners could do. If I am not able to beat it, I might just continue from map 27 which I left with 200 health. Will give me 1-2 more precious seconds. Map 30 just looks like something I'm gonna have to savescum through. 

 

Maybe one day when I'm a much better player and feel masochistic enough, I might attempt them "legit".

 

It does seem pointless attempting saveless runs of maps way beyond my skill level and torturing myself when there are so many awesome wads to play through. 

 

One thing I've gotta say - Episode 3 has forced me to get a lot better at berserk punching hell nobles and revenants, although I can't always avoid getting hit back.

Edited by paturn

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2 hours ago, paturn said:

Is this it? Have I really hit my skill ceiling so soon? How am I supposed to beat wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta if I can't even beat Scythe?

 

Besides what has already been said about MAP28, Scythe in general starts off easy but ramps up hard in the late maps. The last episode of Scythe is easily Hell Revealed-tier IMO, especially the last 5 maps.

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Update: I (kinda) beat map 28 twice. Once from pistol start but with a save, and once without saves but carryover from map 27 (200 health and around 160 cells). What a royal pain in the ass. My fingers are literally hurting. This isn't one of the maps I am gonna feel bad about not doing from a pistol start and saveless. 

 

Edit - Guess what, I wasn't feeling satisfied and ending up beating it from a pistol start saveless too. I wish I had recorded a demo

Edited by paturn

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On 12/29/2020 at 7:37 PM, paturn said:

Is this it? Have I really hit my skill ceiling so soon? How am I supposed to beat wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta if I can't even beat Scythe?

Edit- Finally beat Map 27. I made it seem way harder than it actually is

That's absolutely how I've felt, so hopefully this skill prog will help..

 

On 12/29/2020 at 8:30 PM, Pseudonaut said:

For the sake of skill improvement, I think the most important thing is that you keep playing Doom and challenging yourself, and if things get ridiculous, there's no need to strictly stay with just one megawad until you've done it all without saves.

That's been some of the best advise thus far.. It's amazing to go back to a head-hitting-wall moment with a fresh perspective & go through it without much challenge. As previously stated, we tend to make things harder than they really are.

 

On 12/30/2020 at 12:21 AM, paturn said:

Edit - Guess what, I wasn't feeling satisfied and ending up beating it from a pistol start saveless too. I wish I had recorded a demo

Congrats, bro! That definitely takes a certain level of skill to achieve. I'll cheers ya to that. Also, what other wads have you been playing?

 

I've recently completed Base Ganymede. It was a pretty fun experience & great suggestion, so thanks bros! Again, got me more comfortable w/ being at low health/ammo for most maps. Also been working through Plutonia UV/PS/saveless (just completed Go2It wahoo). As per prog tree suggests, I suppose I will be hitting up Sigil & Moonblood next.

Edited by VVarp_SpaSm

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15 minutes ago, VVarp_SpaSm said:

Congrats, bro! That definitely takes a certain level of skill to achieve. I'll cheers ya to that. Also, what other wads have you been playing?

Thanks! Map 28 was the most annoying , yet the most satisfying one to beat. 

 

Over the last month, I have completed Coffee Break, Revolution and Demonfear. Currently, I am halfway through Icarus and Rowdy Rudy's Revenge. I'll probably finish Perdition's Gate and Doom 64 for Doom 2 next (played around 4-5 maps in both).

 

I know these are rather easy wads, but honestly the last episode of Scythe has been a bit exhausting. I wanna play something fun and easy as a 'deload' of sorts. Maybe I'll attempt to beat the last two Scythe maps in the meantime, but I'm in no hurry!

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