Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
R1ck

why people hate [doom/2] monsters so much?

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, Ruisu said:

artificially difficult, like in Plutonia and TNT

I'm curious in what situation in IWADs you'll treat something good difficult instead of artificially difficult?

Share this post


Link to post

These questions need clarification (please excuse the absolute statements below...they're faster to type):

  • No one hates a single (any type of) monster, if they have sufficient cover, space, ammo, armor, and health.
  • No one hates even a few instances of a particular monster under the same conditions.
  • On the other end of the spectrum, most people would hate an inescapable pit of 50 shotgunners, with 15% health and a pistol.

So the real question is "Why do people hate poorly designed, or unfair battles?" And the answers to this question are self-explanatory.

 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, kb1 said:
  • On the other end of the spectrum, most people would hate an inescapable pit of 50 shotgunners, with 15% health and a pistol.

So the real question is "Why do people hate poorly designed, or unfair battles?" And the answers to this question are self-explanatory.

 

 

Ha, I got you there. The obvious answer to the above is that "1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z never find themselves in such situations, because, well, they are 1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z, that's why." and "This only happens to noobs/scrubs". There ya go :-p

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/28/2019 at 3:10 PM, pcorf said:

Shotgun guys ...... f******!!!!

If that's really your most hated enemy type, then that puts "Shotgun Blues" in a whole new light. Anyway, beside setups that involve Chaingunners with Evilution-like placements, I have no issues with the Doom 2 roster.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

A good metric for "monster hatred" is the Damage:Health ratio for various monsters. For example, for imps it would be 24:60, which is the highest for a classic projectile + melee monster, but for shotgun guys it would be 45:30, making it the only monster that can deal more damage than its own health in a single shot.

 

For Revs it would be 80:300, but in practice those guys can and often do deal more damage than their own health before going down. If a Rev lands 4 hits at 80 damage, it already dealt more than its own health. A classic example of this is a HK vs Rev infight. Think a one-on-one between those two monsters is a no-brainer? Will the HK's higher health always save it from death vs a more damaging and more accurate opponent (PROTIP: the Rev will miss less, esp. at a distance)?

 

For chaingunners, it's a bit more complicated, as their per-shot damage isn't any higher than that of a zombieman (15 HP), so the ratio would be 15:70. However, in practice they will never land just a single shot, and most often they will be at least as damaging as a shotgunner at point blank, if not more. Then, the ratio can skyrocket.

Share this post


Link to post

 

1 hour ago, Maes said:

 

Ha, I got you there. The obvious answer to the above is that "1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z never find themselves in such situations, because, well, they are 1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z, that's why." and "This only happens to noobs/scrubs". There ya go :-p

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, kb1 said:

 

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

 

Exactly. Only scrubs/noobs complain, dontchaknow?

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

What wads do you play where most revenants are dealing +300 damage? Especially 4 80 damage shots with the way Doom's RNG works. Even with the slight rigging in the RNG numbers the revs average damage is still around 40, not 80.

 

Even more lost souls seem to get the most hate in this thread and they have shit damage\hp.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Pegg said:

What wads do you play where most revenants are dealing +300 damage?

 

Any map where revenants can get caught in infighting with Cacos, HKs or even Barons. All those monsters may out-health the Revs, but if they infight and the exchange is mostly projectiles, then the Rev has the edge thanks both to its higher average damage, and its higher accuracy. Even in a melee not all is lost: its attack speed is higher than that of HKs and Barons, and he may win simply by painchanging them. It's not unusual for HKs to lose regularly to a single Rev, one on one, and even a Baron may take quite a disproportionate punishment before managing to deal those 300 HP and put the Rev down. Against 2 Revs, a single Baron will simply be mugged/gang raped. And speaking of gangs...

 

...if Revs were a brawling game character, they'd be a kind of tall, lean and mean street fighter gangstah, a switchblade-flipping, "bad mothafuckah" ruthless, "street smart" kind of tough guy that has many tricks up his sleeve. Not the top of the bunch in overall stats, but definitively among the toughest, never to be underestimated. Barons and HK would be just "dumb muscle" in comparison, like body builders that are strong but not as "street smart" as the tough guy. Now, when you face an entire gang/army of such guys....

 

23 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Even more lost souls seem to get the most hate in this thread and they have shit damage\hp.

 

Just like in the case of Chaingunners, there are other things to keep into consideration. Yeah, their damage/hp ratio is shit...or rather, if you flip it around, it's pretty damn high (100:15), in the bullet sponge leagues. Not Baron kind of high (900:60) but, interestingly, the same as a Cacodemon (400:60). What makes it annoying is that since it's a melee monster, it will tend to corner and surround the player, and once it lands a successful attack, it's almost immediately ready for another. Unlike other melee monsters, it's not enough to simply break contact, since it can charge faster than most projectiles, and those bullet-level damages can quickly add up.

Share this post


Link to post
On 7/18/2019 at 12:18 AM, Phobus said:

Doom/2 implies both the original game and the sequel.

yes, I'm well aware of that.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, kb1 said:

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

Au contraire... Most of them simply complain (or joke) about something else entirely, for example about people calling something "unfair" or "bullshit", even though several hours of testing went into a fight to make sure it behaves properly and can be beaten in a reliable fashion. Meanwhile the average bruised ego pontificates that it's all just luck-based, and "people shouldn't map like that" yada yada "standards" yada yada "accessibility" yada yada... It's gotten boring by now.

 

Luckily for all involved, these things usually happen behind closed doors, because after a while even somebody as stubborn as me comes to the realization that some discussions simply aren't worth having, at least not on a regular basis.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Maes said:

Just like in the case of Chaingunners, there are other things to keep into consideration. Yeah, their damage/hp ratio is shit...or rather, if you flip it around, it's pretty damn high (100:15), in the bullet sponge leagues. Not Baron kind of high (900:60) but, interestingly, the same as a Cacodemon (400:60).

Cause almost all of these numbers are wrong I am now not sure if you are trolling or not so I'll save myself the effort of responding to all this nonsense

Edited by Ancalagon

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

Cause almost all of these numbers are wrong.

 

Oh c'mon, at least the Caco Is right... I admit I fux0r3d up the Lost Soul's maximum damage: it's the same as the Imp's.

 

Old habits die hard..."Lost Souls do the same damage as single bullets", said the Unofficial Doom FAQ v6.666 ages ago :)

 

For the rest, don't flatter yourself.

Share this post


Link to post

Damage-to-health ratio has nothing to do with much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

Damage-to-health ratio has nothing to do with much. 

 

Uhhh, actually it does, but not in an immediately obvious way. In general, low health/low tier monsters invite players to spam them liberally, since "Hey, they are weak, and not even noobs should have trouble with them, amirite or amirite?". But massing those weak monsters also creates a massive damage potential, if not checked. So for every 30 HP of damage that you don't deal e.g. to a shotgunner, there's potentially 45 HP worth of hot, manly lead waiting to be pumped deeply in you :-)

 

Of course a lot depends on the tactical situation. Being stuck in a room with 100 shotgunners might be better or worse than being stuck with a single cyberdemon or 10 revenants (same total HP) depending on cover, weaponry etc.

 

Plus there's all that Glass Cannon, Mighty Glacier etc. stuff. Most monsters with higher HP than the Revenant pretty much fall in the Mighty Glacier/Bullet Sponge category, and per-attack damage plateaus quickly. Imagine if e.g. the Baron had the same damage: health ratio as the Imp...ouch ;-) The Revenant sits in a kind of perverse "sweet spot", so to speak.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

I mean, if you need to rope design decisions (regardless of how questionable) into this discussion in order to defend a "damage to HP ratio" argument.... How good was that argument in the first place?

Share this post


Link to post
39 minutes ago, Maes said:

Of course a lot depends on the tactical situation. Being stuck in a room with 100 shotgunners might be better or worse than being stuck with a single cyberdemon or 10 revenants (same total HP) depending on cover, weaponry etc.

 

 

Don't Cybers have 4000 HP?

Share this post


Link to post

No it doesn't matter at all because monsters don't always hit the player (now their damage:health is 0:health) and discussing their infighting is pointless when discussing how deadly they are to players, because they are helping the players when infighting.. And no revenants aren't consistently beating hell knights and barons with their pain chance and low hp.. more often they'll get stunlocked by them and get spanked to death. 

Share this post


Link to post

To add to that a PE in a small closet is virtually harmless. A Baron in a huge space is a walking ammo sink. An Archvile with sufficient cover is game of peekaboo.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Everyone's skill is different, everyone's tastes are different, every play-through is different. And, people whine. The game is supposed to be fun, and challenging. On the subject, if I had to whine about something, I think Lost Souls have too much health. I think just about any attack should kill them. They are just too small to be as tough as they are.

 

But, oh well - that's the game. If you don't like the gameplay, switch the difficulty, switch maps, or switch to a new game.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, kb1 said:

They are just too small to be as tough as they are.

 

Assuming the sprites are all in the same scale, they'd be quite a large skull IRL:

 

Lostsoulsheet.gif

 

Sargesheet.gif&f=1

Pretty much like shooting at flying bison heads. Can't imagine those going down in 2-3 hits either.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Yeah I never thought of that... they some big fuckin' heads

Yeah, I guess so - they're almost as big as the shotgun guys. Still, my shotgun should knock them into next week...I'm just saying. It's just unsatisfying - that's my gripe. I want them to go flying in a million pieces, from a single shot...CRACK!

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Well, the thickness of a wild boar's skull and its resistance to even shotgun slugs (let alone to buckshot) is legendary among Greek hunters (due to local regulations, they cannot hunt with anything but smoothbore shotguns). I can only imagine a bison's skull to be even more resistant, let alone an undead floating one from Hell.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Especially since shells in the game are most likely the ones that split to tear through as many organs as possible; shooting a lost soul with shotguns would be even worse than in the game. not to mention the chance they reflect shots and kill doomguy.

Share this post


Link to post

The lost souls are almost never a real threat, they are just annoying and waste ammo. I like the archviles because the encounters they present are interesting, but if used in an open area with no cover they become really skinny Hitler. The monsters I have the most are mancunbi, their projectiles are hard to doge because the fireballs are large, and there are two of them, but also they have a good amount of health and can also be an ammo waster.

Share this post


Link to post
On 7/23/2019 at 10:53 AM, Sir Hattington said:

really skinny Hitler.

LOL

Thank you sir. I needed that description in my life

Share this post


Link to post

After playing through plutonia back in 2013. I have this burning hatred for chaingunners. As much of meme people make plutonia out to be. I can atleast say it taught me on how I should/'nt be using chaingunners.

Share this post


Link to post

I've noticed how the lost souls in some or every console port (not sure) have reduced health. So that it's easily one shotgun shoot per each. But on PC they just have too much health for how many and chaotic they, usually released in masses and especially when there is a pain elemental they are everywhere and it takes the biggest amount of time to clean an area full of them. It's much bigger waster not only of ammo but of time too. It's the only time when I play on PC, that I think wow those who made the console ports knew one or two things that need to change.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×