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DespairDev

Eliomaps.wad

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The name. Lame. I know. 

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/d-f/eliomaps

 

But it's finally on doomworld! It's a wad that consists of 2 levels, that serve as a sneak peak for my upcoming wad "Maps of Evil", so you can give it a try, I will upload a walkthrough soon. Btw, runs better with GZDoom and it's Hexen format.

 

So here are some shots taken from GZDoom Builder.

Map01.PNG

Map02.PNG

Map012.PNG

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I've completed your MAP01 on UV in 14.59 minutes with 87% kills, 90% items and 33% secrets.

 

The map was a confused techbase with several errors.

 

But starting with the visuals:

I liked how you have tried to place some floor detail and something to brake the walls, but the rooms were mainly squares (the first one for example) or rectangular corridors. Also the ceilings were always without any detail. The map presented a lot of visual errors. First, in the starting room there is a hall of mirror on the UAC panel on the wall, that clips with the floor. Second, in the outside zone, where you have to go into the cave, there is this lift that brings you down and that has no lower textures on the sides, generating another giant hall of mirror. Third, in one of the last zones (maybe the one with the exit ) there is another hall of mirror. There were also no light variation at all and some 24 unit steps in the nuke decorations on the floor, that aren't the best choice in that situation (an 8 unit step is more then enough).

 

Thing placement:

Having to fight barons and Hell knights without a SSG is frustrating for everyone. If you want to place one of each type in order to see if the player is able to beat them without a proper weapon you are on the right way, but if I have to fight 15 of them before reaching a SSG something is wrong.

The ammo placement was also strange. I found 75 rockets but I wasn't able to find a rocket launcher. If I missed it you are free to ignore everything I've just said about the thing placement, but if it was in a secret it's a different story, because the ammo placement really made me think that I was supposed to have a RL during my run.

The SSG is placed in such a way that a player can easily miss it if he is not carefull. I've seen it only when I turned back to fight the archvile from my safe position behind the wall.

 

General design:

the map was well interconnected in some places, but I disliked the obscure progression (why have I to return to a previous room to open the unmarked red door? Give me a hint that I have to go there, or open another path to the same room in front of me so I can simply follow it). I really don't like to run around without something to do only to find that I've crossed a line somewhere that has opened a door somewhere again.

Finding the exit was something really frustrating. It is supposed to be in the last room, not in a corridor in a previous part of the map, unmarked, easily skippable and opened by an anonymous switch.

 

I didn't like your map at all, sorry. I will edit this post with my opinions on the second map tomorrow. However, considering that this is a first map you have shown a good level of skill with the editor on a technical level, so you have the capacities to create good maps.

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9 hours ago, Simomarchi said:

 

But starting with the visuals:

I liked how you have tried to place some floor detail and something to brake the walls, but the rooms were mainly squares (the first one for example) or rectangular corridors. Also the ceilings were always without any detail. The map presented a lot of visual errors. First, in the starting room there is a hall of mirror on the UAC panel on the wall, that clips with the floor. Second, in the outside zone, where you have to go into the cave, there is this lift that brings you down and that has no lower textures on the sides, generating another giant hall of mirror. Third, in one of the last zones (maybe the one with the exit ) there is another hall of mirror. There were also no light variation at all and some 24 unit steps in the nuke decorations on the floor, that aren't the best choice in that situation (an 8 unit step is more then enough).

These HOM effects have to do with what engine you use, i.e. if you aren't using GZDoom, the UAC hologram looks like that, but if you use GZDoom, it looks just fine, and also the thing with the textures is that I'm using a texture pack for Doom 1, and the texture I assigned to them doesn't show (but if you see it with GZDoom Builder they look fine)

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9 hours ago, Simomarchi said:

 

 

Thing placement:

Having to fight barons and Hell knights without a SSG is frustrating for everyone. If you want to place one of each type in order to see if the player is able to beat them without a proper weapon you are on the right way, but if I have to fight 15 of them before reaching a SSG something is wrong.

The ammo placement was also strange. I found 75 rockets but I wasn't able to find a rocket launcher. If I missed it you are free to ignore everything I've just said about the thing placement, but if it was in a secret it's a different story, because the ammo placement really made me think that I was supposed to have a RL during my run.

The SSG is placed in such a way that a player can easily miss it if he is not carefull. I've seen it only when I turned back to fight the archvile from my safe position behind the wall.

The SSG was super easy to find since the beginning, flipping all 4 switches near the hell knight platforms would lower the platforms and also reveal a switch behind a crate, which would be flipped to grant you access to the ssg, and the rocket launcher is in a secret area, but the rockets are mainly for the next level.

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9 hours ago, Simomarchi said:

I liked how you have tried to place some floor detail and something to brake the walls, but the rooms were mainly squares (the first one for example) or rectangular corridors. Also the ceilings were always without any detail.

Would you rather play maps like these?MAP01.wad_MAP15.png.7b04de3fb4160d9663d71f95c5687215.pngMAP01.wad_MAP11.png.df06b56f3661c204d45d5b2a10a41e94.pngMAP01.wad_MAP16.png.1f38cdf92d040ba41bbe05b3c12069c2.pngMAP01.wad_MAP17.png.7a090b6cba5a8773c1b76420ce25e521.pngMAP01.wad_MAP18.png.74111eb83a20cb6097b78471d89586d5.pngMAP01.wad_MAP20.png.860407bb7b7ad8de94d88abe6553a2d8.png

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

These HOM effects have to do with what engine you use, i.e. if you aren't using GZDoom, the UAC hologram looks like that, but if you use GZDoom, it looks just fine, and also the thing with the textures is that I'm using a texture pack for Doom 1, and the texture I assigned to them doesn't show (but if you see it with GZDoom Builder they look fine)


Then you should put that in the original post. Compatability is important.

 

 

24 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

The SSG was super easy to find since the beginning, flipping all 4 switches near the hell knight platforms would lower the platforms and also reveal a switch behind a crate, which would be flipped to grant you access to the ssg, and the rocket launcher is in a secret area, but the rockets are mainly for the next level.

 

That doesn't sound easy! It makes sense to you because it's your map. It's generally poor form to argue what someone else's experience with your map is.

Edited by OrbitalSpaceGarbage

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18 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

That doesn't sound easy! It makes sense to you because it's your map. It's generally poor form to argue what someone else's experience with your map is.

It really is, it only requires flipping a couple of switches.

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19 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

Then you should put that in the original post. Compatability is important.

It's on Doomworld Idgames txt file. Aren't those files made to read?

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14 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

 

5 switches is over twice a couple. 

No, I'm pretty sure it can be done by 2, even one, actually.

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@DespairDev

Y'see, the problem is people are different. Nobody is going to experience the same map the same way as someone else. The creator, of course, will know everything the map has to offer and knows immediately what to do. Someone who's completely new to the map and has never heard of or seen the map before will not know anything about the map. At all.

You, as the creator, can not experience the map like everyone else. For example, A first-timer normally will see a switch, press it, and wonder what it does. You see the switch, press it, and know immediately where to go afterwards, because you made the map.

 

However, you can make it so that the first-timer knows what they're meant to do. Some examples:

  • Putting the thing the switch affects in view of wherever you press the switch
  • Making the switch open up a path that leads to whatever it opened
  • Telling the player directly(Not the best, but it works if you describe well.)

Basically:What would a first-timer think if they hit a switch and nothing (that they can see) happened? They would be utterly confused.

"Communicate" with your player, show them where they're meant to go next. Show what the switch they pressed just did. Otherwise they know nothing other than that they pressed a switch.

 

This is just an example. In general, just remember that little is obvious to a first-timer.

 

I haven't even played your maps yet, but I want to say this at least.

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6 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

@DespairDev

Y'see, the problem is people are different. Nobody is going to experience the same map the same way as someone else. The creator, of course, will know everything the map has to offer and knows immediately what to do. Someone who's completely new to the map and has never heard of or seen the map before will not know anything about the map. At all.

You, as the creator, can not experience the map like everyone else. For example, A first-timer normally will see a switch, press it, and wonder what it does. You see the switch, press it, and know immediately where to go afterwards, because you made the map.

 

However, you can make it so that the first-timer knows what they're meant to do. Some examples:

  • Putting the thing the switch affects in view of wherever you press the switch
  • Making the switch open up a path that leads to whatever it opened
  • Telling the player directly(Not the best, but it works if you describe well.)

Basically:What would a first-timer think if they hit a switch and nothing (that they can see) happened? They would be utterly confused.

"Communicate" with your player, show them where they're meant to go next. Show what the switch they pressed just did. Otherwise they know nothing other than that they pressed a switch.

 

This is just an example. In general, just remember that little is obvious to a first-timer.

 

I haven't even played your maps yet, but I want to say this at least.

The map literally has everything you said, one switch will highlight an arrow, so the player knows where the SSG is, and the 2 switches will open up a crate in the same room, the SSG will also be opened up in the same room.

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2 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

The map literally has everything you said, one switch will highlight an arrow, so the player knows where the SSG is, and the 2 switches will open up a crate in the same room, the SSG will also be opened up in the same room.

 

That sounds incredibly convoluted. Why not just have one switch that opens up the SSG clearly?

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Posted (edited)

The most important part, of course, is that someone like me, who hasn't played the map yet, sees the SSG immediately being opened up after pressing the switch. Stuff like that is what I'm talking about. If you do at least that, then fine. Arrows that light up are far too subtle, IMO.

Again, I'll reiterate that I haven't played the map, So I'm not judging it, just giving general advice.

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19 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

@DespairDev

Y'see, the problem is people are different. Nobody is going to experience the same map the same way as someone else. The creator, of course, will know everything the map has to offer and knows immediately what to do. Someone who's completely new to the map and has never heard of or seen the map before will not know anything about the map. At all.

You, as the creator, can not experience the map like everyone else. For example, A first-timer normally will see a switch, press it, and wonder what it does. You see the switch, press it, and know immediately where to go afterwards, because you made the map.

 

However, you can make it so that the first-timer knows what they're meant to do. Some examples:

  • Putting the thing the switch affects in view of wherever you press the switch
  • Making the switch open up a path that leads to whatever it opened
  • Telling the player directly(Not the best, but it works if you describe well.)

Basically:What would a first-timer think if they hit a switch and nothing (that they can see) happened? They would be utterly confused.

"Communicate" with your player, show them where they're meant to go next. Show what the switch they pressed just did. Otherwise they know nothing other than that they pressed a switch.

 

This is just an example. In general, just remember that little is obvious to a first-timer.

 

I haven't even played your maps yet, but I want to say this at least.

And only 2 switches, or even one (the one that lowers the crate can be opened from outside) is mandatory to get the SSG.

Map01.PNG.84b00e50859fafe84fa8a47ba293abdf.PNG

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12 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

 

That sounds incredibly convoluted. Why not just have one switch that opens up the SSG clearly?

So the player can do a little more exploring and make it a little more tough for him by adding 1 more enemy. Even tho this will be map 2 in the final wad so the player will have the chance to access it earlier.

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Can I see the overhead view, please? With arrows, of course. I can't tell what's going on very well in that screenshot. I think I kind of understand it...?

I'll reiterate that I haven't played the map.

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1 hour ago, theDia said:

Man @DespairDev,

 

if you don´t like the heat, don´t jump into the oven. :)

Simomarchi took his time to play your levels and took another hour or so to write you an intensive and very detailled review. And you try to come up with - really stupid - excuses for each of the errors he mentioned, instead of thanking him and correcting the obvious flaws in your designs.

The first thing you should learn as an up and coming artist (and it doesn´t matter in wich art) is to accept and use critizism to advance in your art. If you´re aren´t able to do so you will never get over the point you are now and that is an "unexperienced new wad-autor with great ambition and an little bit of talent".

Sorry, just judging from your remarks I´m sure I will not play any of your levels in the near future - at least not until you grew up a little. ;)

 

Lmao calling them stupid excuses doesn't mean they aren't true. If you opened them with GZDoom Builder, you would see that the textures are there, but when you play it, they don't show. Try looking them up with GZDoom Builder, dear ;)

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

So the player can do a little more exploring and make it a little more tough for him by adding 1 more enemy. Even tho this will be map 2 in the final wad so the player will have the chance to access it earlier.

 

Puzzle design is a tricky thing. I appreciate that you want to make it a bit harder and make the player think, but an effective puzzle normally offers a clear objective and progress along that puzzle is clear an obvious. I think you could do this sort of puzzle in a way that doesn't just feel obtuse. It's a bit moon logic-y atm.

 

Currently, you're just sort of hoping that it's clear what's opening and what the arrows mean – players don't know they're engaging with a puzzle to access a weapon. If you had the SSG visible but unreachable you could just have a pillar that lowers in increments after a couple of button presses. 
 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Can I see the overhead view, please? With arrows, of course. I can't tell what's going on very well in that screenshot. I think I kind of understand it...?

I'll reiterate that I haven't played the map.

Okay I'll show you a clip from a recording I did to show you, just 1 sec.

 

--EDIT--

 

The clip is 1.66 GB so yeah idk why, but I will try using screenshots to explain.

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7 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

 

Puzzle design is a tricky thing. I appreciate that you want to make it a bit harder and make the player think, but an effective puzzle normally offers a clear objective and progress along that puzzle is clear an obvious. I think you could do this sort of puzzle in a way that doesn't just feel obtuse. It's a bit moon logic-y atm.

 

Currently, you're just sort of hoping that it's clear what's opening and what the arrows mean – players don't know they're engaging with a puzzle to access a weapon. If you had the SSG visible but unreachable you could just have a pillar that lowers in increments after a couple of button presses. 
 

1. The switch that will make the arrow visible.1.PNG.a6ca5a84fa9254332660419d73dfb73a.PNG

2. The arrow, as you can see near the start door.2.PNG.77e2877c03359d5e178cea1e26855034.PNG

3. The 2 Hell Knight platforms can be lowered through these switches.3.PNG.2442eeed6d36baf852e77ca150ff4e27.PNG

4. There are switches behind their lowered platforms (which can be pressed without lowering the platforms anyways)4.PNG.4bdac972093afb7a5fbae558fa11ed07.PNG

5. The switches will lower down those crate faces.5.PNG.b4a4d49c7f71aac0d2feb389a85f13a8.PNG

6. That is the switch that will lower the crate down.

6.PNG.bd826437db6b547c05b531c352833461.PNG

7. There's the lowered crate7.PNG.d51a869566a4de1a0c826ef58dc4a3b2.PNG

8. There's the SSG8.PNG.37629f9d6e527f5d3ab8da46532cc46b.PNG

9. You can lower the crate for a mega armor and a rocket launcher, as well as a secret.9.PNG.7bffe9f0699603668b56a6e160afd6c6.PNG

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Posted (edited)

Okay, it's not that complicated in theory, but in practice, it's got too many moving parts that aren't clearly linked together and don't require any extra logical thought. I would get rid of the arrow and reposition the crate lowering switch so you can easily see what it does. That switch is already hidden, so making that change doesn't really make it any less complex, it just makes it less clunky.

 

The arrow kind of feels like it's only there because you like the sector light change effect.

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7 minutes ago, OrbitalSpaceGarbage said:

Okay, it's not that complicated in theory, but in practice, it's got too many moving parts that aren't clearly linked together. I would get rid of the arrow and reposition the crate lowering switch so you can easily see what it does. That switch is already hidden, so making that change doesn't really make it any less complex, it just makes it less clunky.

  

The arrow kind of feels like it's only there because you like the sector light change effect.

Ig I can try that when I upload the next version of "Maps of Evil"

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Here's a potential player thought process for the SSG on a pillar idea:

-The player sees the SSG, and obviously wants it.

-Because it's on a pillar, they know they can't get it unless they do something.

-The player will look around for methods to reach the SSG, wether it's hidden paths, switches, etc.

-They find those methods and get the SSG.

 

Stuff like that is what you need to think about when making puzzles methinks.

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2 minutes ago, Alper002 said:

Here's a potential player thought process for the SSG on a pillar idea:

-The player sees the SSG, and obviously wants it.

-Because it's on a pillar, they know they can't get it unless they do something.

-The player will look around for methods to reach the SSG, wether it's hidden paths, switches, etc.

-They find those methods and get the SSG.

 

Stuff like that is what you need to think about when making puzzles methinks.

It really really wasn't supposed to be a puzzle

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34 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

Lmao calling them stupid excuses doesn't mean they aren't true. If you opened them with GZDoom Builder, you would see that the textures are there, but when you play it, they don't show. Try looking them up with GZDoom Builder, dear ;)


Sorry Kid,

but it seems you actively try avoiding to understand what people are explaining to you - and this is not the first time/thread I saw you do this. As mentioned before - grow up...

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Posted (edited)

I've completed your MAP02 on UV in 23.36 minutes, with 98% kills, 70% items and 0% secrets (however some actions that I've performed may be considered as secrets, like findinding the megasphere in the outside area)

 

This map was better than the first one, at least in the first part. Then it started to become an endless "trying to find what to do" thing.

 

But, as always, starting with the visuals:

the first area was well detailed and there was this nice contrast between the indoor dark area and the outdoor. I think that, as the level progresses, you ran out of ideas because the last areas are literally squares without decoration (like the 3 hell knights room and the arachnotrons room). 

There are also some weird texture placements. In one occasion (I can't rememeber where) I've noticed that there is a different texture on a wall, only in a single section (and it is not a secret since it is in an unreachable position on the top of a door).

You have tried to use different textures but the lack of detail ruin the work in my opinion, but at least I liked the broken floor in the mancubi room.

Unpegging a lift is commonly considered as an error.

 

Thing placement:

I've played your map from pistol start but now I've understood that this wad is a continuous play, so I can understand the lack of a SSG in the first part of the level. It is however a good idea to place all the weapons that a player has previously aquired near the start, otherwise a death will simply ruin your map balance resetting the player's inventory.

The monster placement was good. There where some good ambushes but you have to consider a different method to surprise the player (like teleport ambushes for example, you have used this mechanic only in the starting room).

 

General design:

Now, I have to say that I was NOT able to raise the bridge in the room with the stairs (the bridge that I think brings you to the switch that, again, I think opens the teleport to the nuke maze), but I was however able to complete your map by jumping from the left lift to the other side of the bridge, without having to raise it (I've noticed it only in the last part of the run, but I think that I could easily skip 80% of the level playing this way)

Also, I have had to noclip to the exit because I was reaching a new level of frustration trying to lower those three panels that apparently weren't linked to nothing. I pushed the four switches in the arachnotron's room a countless amount of time, and at some point the central panel was lowered, but I have no idea about the reason.

It was an extremely confused map, really. I had to backtrack multiple times in order to find what a switch did, without any hint.

 

Another not so good map, I'm sorry.

 

Now, regarding MAP01:

I can understand that the SSG may be considered an easy "secret", and I've found it in 10 seconds after reading your post, but in my first run I really haven't noticed the switch on the other sides of the panels.

I think that, when you make a map, you have to think that what is easy for you probably is obscure for a first time player, so you have to make important things stupidly easy, really. Mark the key doors, place the SSG in front of the player if it is an essential weapon to beat the map and show him the correct path. The difficult level of a map is not made by how hard is a path to find (ok, there are famous wads that does this but I personally find all of them unplayable), but by the monster placement, by the ambush quality and by the overall design of your encounter.

 

Edit: a lot has happened here while I was writing this review. I can't understand why you aren't listening to us. We are trying to help you to improve your mapping quality. We can simply discuss like "ok, so Ilve made some mistakes, have you some ideas to fix them?" rather then "no, you have not understand my map and you are wrong"

Edited by Simomarchi

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4 minutes ago, DespairDev said:

It really really wasn't supposed to be a puzzle

So what? Just because it wasn't meant to be a puzzle, doesn't mean it isn't one. It's far too obtuse to be able to consider it anything other than one, in my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, theDia said:


Sorry Kid,

but it seems you actively try avoiding to understand what people are explaining to you - and this is not the first time/thread I saw you do this. As mentioned before - grow up...

I'm not avoiding it, I'm actually keeping the conversation going to learn everyone's opinions on it. And you said you ain't gonna play it, well no one was forcing you to play it, that was just uncalled for and really didn't need to tell me that, but ig some people feed on making others feel worse, po ti c'me can trapin si shume.

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