Tim Willits to Leave id Software

[Doomkid]

Hmm. I don’t care too much, but I really do hate it when people lie to puff themselves up. Here’s the article for anyone interested: https://techraptor.net/content/john-romero-refutes-tim-willits-real-history-multiplayer-maps

 

Yikes, that’s a really bold lie to tell, especially when Romero, Carmack, McGee, Hall etc are all still around and semi-active on Social Media to refute it. What’s worse is he didn’t join id until well after McGee made idmap01 (a DM only map popular in the 90’s) and early DM-only WADs were already around in droves by 1995.

 

Dude you had a legit hand in making Quake, why not just be honest about it? Lying to puff yourself up is just so fucking dumb when you already have a good resume!

 

Oh well.. forgive my late reaction but it was news to me. As for him leaving id, old id has been dead a long time and I’m sure he’ll be totally fine.

[Chubzdoomer]

4 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

What are you basing this on? I'm not saying you're wrong, but how exactly do you assess how much of a part he played in that game?

I won't pretend to be an insider, because I'm not.  I'm basing it primarily on the fact that he's only ever been credited as the "Studio Director" (not Game Director, or Designer, or anything that would imply he was hands-on with the game itself).  There's also the fact that Marty Stratton and Hugo Martin have always been front-and-center in conferences and interviews, and they rarely even say Willits' name.

 

And then there's this massive making-of article for DOOM '16:

https://www.shacknews.com/article/99662/stairway-to-badass-the-making-and-remaking-of-doom

 

Skim through that and see how many times Willits is mentioned.  Now do the same for Stratton and/or Martin!

Edited July 19, 2019 by Chubzdoomer

[qdash]

 

You gonna die hators!

[seed]

Welp, sad to see him leaving I guess.

 

Now all that's left of the old id is Kevin and Donna I think, and when they eventually leave, an era truly comes to an end.

[ketmar]

tim who? meh.

 

on a serious side: i think that he really believed his story about DM maps. just a false memory case. at least i hope so.

[amackert]

On 7/18/2019 at 12:54 PM, Chubzdoomer said:

Quake Champions hasn't been much better. I mean, do you even know anyone who plays or has played Champions? I sure don't.

 

 

Quake Champions is great. The reason people don't play it is that the classic arena shooter is dead and has been for a long time. I'm glad they're at least trying though.

[DooM_RO]

Quake is kind of stuck in a rut, it is an evolutionary dead end. What exactly can you add to a Quake game and still retain its identity? I liked the abilities but I can see why some people don't. If you don't want anything new, then what exactly is the purpose of a sequel? And even with new things like abilities, is that enough to bring in new players? The fact that the playerbase is extremely conservative about change and the game is extremely hardcore (abilities or not) doesn't help either. It's like the Starcraft 2 of FPS. Hard to learn, hard to master. People much prefer easy to learn hard to master games like DOTA2 nowadays. They should have just made a graphic pack for Quake 3. 

[Jon]

They could have made a spiritual  sequel to quake 1 with  all that gothic/lovecraftian atmosphere but they made a FTP quake3 clone instead. Then moved their *existing* FTP quake3 clone (quake live) to upfront cost. 

 

I recently reinstalled the original quake3, and it holds up!

[qdash]

13 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

Quake is kind of stuck in a rut, it is an evolutionary dead end. What exactly can you add to a Quake game and still retain its identity? I liked the abilities but I can see why some people don't. If you don't want anything new, then what exactly is the purpose of a sequel? And even with new things like abilities, is that enough to bring in new players? The fact that the playerbase is extremely conservative about change and the game is extremely hardcore (abilities or not) doesn't help either. It's like the Starcraft 2 of FPS. Hard to learn, hard to master. People much prefer easy to learn hard to master games like DOTA2 nowadays. They should have just made a graphic pack for Quake 3. 

 

I love basic idea of Quake 1 by American McGee - rocketjumps and duels on rocket launchers. I played QuakeWorld few years ago and it's still fun, very cool game for everyone, you can be not master of masters to have fun in classic deathmatch, but it's hard to master e t.c. stuff. Some really good things are very simple.

[DooM_RO]

10 hours ago, qdash said:

 

I love basic idea of Quake 1 by American McGee - rocketjumps and duels on rocket launchers. I played QuakeWorld few years ago and it's still fun, very cool game for everyone, you can be not master of masters to have fun in classic deathmatch, but it's hard to master e t.c. stuff. Some really good things are very simple.

 

But they're not really simple.

[DoomSpud]

23 hours ago, Jon said:

I recently reinstalled the original quake3, and it holds up!

Quake III Arena is still incredible today. Best arena deathmatch shooter ever.

 

 

[DoomSpud]

While it's always sad to see an iD alumni depart, Tim Willits was a bit of a dick so I'm not losing any sleep over it like I did when John Carmack departed.

 

[qdash]

6 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 

But they're not really simple.

 

More simple than Q3A and way more simple than Q3A with goddamn abilities. Quake is very personal game when YOU is tough guy, not BJ, Doom or Galeena, only matters is your skill, not your character choice. And it's why QC feels like it's not real Quake game, something close but not still not enough. All these rounds in duels and many other stuff - QC is perfect example how not to do.

[DooM_RO]

2 hours ago, qdash said:

 

More simple than Q3A and way more simple than Q3A with goddamn abilities. Quake is very personal game when YOU is tough guy, not BJ, Doom or Galeena, only matters is your skill, not your character choice. And it's why QC feels like it's not real Quake game, something close but not still not enough. All these rounds in duels and many other stuff - QC is perfect example how not to do.

 

Well yeah but if abilities don't fit Quake then what new features can you bring that can evolve the game but satisfy its extremely conservative (and tiny) fanbase?

[Mk7_Centipede]

so like in doom2016, they have these worthless zombies that are fun to approach and tear to shreds.  They serve no difficulty.  The quake iii gauntlet can double as a flashlight, and you tear through worthless zombies in the dark.  similar but different.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Mk7_Centipede

[DooM_RO]

Willits took Romero's job at one point because Carmack though his level were beter iirc. So he was definitely taleted. Maybe he lost the spark as the years passed. That often happens as people get older.

 

Quake 3 was his best game.

[DooM_RO]

Also, is it just me or do many people misattribute Quake 3 to Romero?

[Urthar]

I've heard a lot of people attribute Q3 to Carmack, but never Romero.

[qdash]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:17 PM, DooM_RO said:

Willits took Romero's job at one point because Carmack though his level were beter iirc. So he was definitely taleted. Maybe he lost the spark as the years passed. That often happens as people get older.

 

Quake 3 was his best game.

 

Quake 3 is his game, his first game was Doom 3. But dm6(q1), q2dm1 and q3dm6 are still one of the most memorable Quake maps ever made, he was one of the best mappers and only.

 

On 7/21/2019 at 11:31 PM, DooM_RO said:

 

Well yeah but if abilities don't fit Quake then what new features can you bring that can evolve the game but satisfy its extremely conservative (and tiny) fanbase?

 

QC has kick in the ass by two things:

 

a) it's more difficult game to learn how to play than any other quake game - minus casual players

b) it's doesn't feels like Quake because of idea with heroes - minus old quakers, who can't accept this new reality

 

Simply they must changed their gamedesign choice to something more closer to auditory - both old and new. I'm not game designer, but I don't think so every Quake game must consist every Q3A element, all arsenal of guns e t.c., they can made something more simple but awesome - more Shootmania than Overwatch. Shootmania isn't best FPS game, but devs of this game tried to made something new. Times are changed it's not best thing to release another Q3A, but way worse to kill the spirit of this game like it was in QC.

Edited July 23, 2019 by qdash

[Jon]

All this is predicated on a new quake having to me a multiplayer game. I think they could have made a compelling quake sp game.

[dr_st]

On 7/22/2019 at 3:17 PM, DooM_RO said:

Willits took Romero's job at one point because Carmack though his level were beter iirc. So he was definitely taleted.

Something along these lines is mentioned in David Kushner's "Masters of Doom" book. Here is a direct quote:

Quote

     Carmack abruptly announced one day that Tim's levels would have the coveted honor of being the opening levels of the shareware release - players' first taste of Quake. Everyone was silent in disbelief. It was an insult to Romero, who they all assumed would get that distinction. But the backlash had been coming. Since the meeting to change Quake's direction, Romero had seemed to distance himself even more from the project.

     "What?" Romero said. "I'm the lead designer!"

     "That's my decision," Carmack replied. "Tim's levels are more cohesive." Romero, as always, was quick to let the bad vibes go and wished Tim well. As far as everyone was concerned, Carmack had just passed the torch.

In the end, it didn't turn out exactly like this, because E1M2-E1M5 are credited to Willits, E1M6-E1M8 to McGee and Intro+E1M1 is by Romero. However, if the staff felt that Carmack was 'passing the torch', that certainly seems to have turned out true, as Carmack already really wanted Romero out at that point, and Willits did take a long-term role as 'designer' for id's later games. Whether he was 'lead designer' or not is open to interpretation.

[DooM_RO]

Yeah, he makes great levels. Who knows, he might start an indie company and work on something smaller and more risky.

[Caffeine Freak]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:17 AM, DooM_RO said:

Willits took Romero's job at one point because Carmack though his level were beter iirc. So he was definitely taleted. Maybe he lost the spark as the years passed. That often happens as people get older.

 

Quake 3 was his best game.

 

Gonna have to disagree. I think Doom 3 was Willits's best game. Willits seems to thrive most in a more linear game world, which id had done pretty much all the way up through Doom 3. When he moves outside of that structure though, certain problems arise.

 

You could see evidence of this when id released the first Rage, which I would say is best described as a more or less linear game with the skin of an open world game stretched over it. Now granted, I don't think id ever purported that Rage was an entirely open world game---I believe they described it at the time as 'open, but directed'. Regardless, a lot of the design problems with Rage seemed to stem from the fact that the developers were still very much in the mindset of creating linear games when they made it. I can understand the philosophy of 'open, but directed', but the game was 'directed' in such a way that it was restrictive and even illogical at times. I still enjoyed it a great deal, but I think most of the enjoyable aspects were things that would have fit just as well in a totally linear game.

 

It seems with Rage and Rage 2, Willits had a deep interest in open world games, even though his real strength was linear games. All of which leads me back to my earlier statement about him taking on roles he wasn't as good at. I don't fault him for that---as a creator, you WANT to take on new challenges if you don't want to risk becoming stagnant---but you also have to have a good degree of self-assessment when it comes to your own abilities. 

 

I'd be curious to know the extent of the role Willits played in Rage 2. I know it wasn't a minor one, but I don't think he was creative lead either.