How NRFTL or Sigil would be treated without....

[eulo]

How No Rest for the Living (NRFTL) or Sigil would be treated without the "official" and "John Romero" tags? The same can be asked about E1M4b and E1M8b as well, and to a lesser extent Redemption of the Slain (RotS) too with it being one of the NRFTL guy's project. Arcadia Demade is also a map by a pro (Bioshock author JP Lebreton), and was exposed by Romero's gameplay.

 

I've seen various opinions that these mapsets are exposed only because NRFTL was an id protected official episode, while Sigil was the project of the legendary Romero. Would they have been given the same exposure if just a random guy appears on the forum and says: "hello, this is my first episode, what do you think?" Would NRFTL and E1M8b (or Arcadia Demade) have gotten cacowards in that case?

 

This is a very interesting topic imho, and it had never really been discussed into depth. My personal opinion might be a little controversial here, but this is what I'm thinking:

 

I think both Sigil and NRFTL (and the rest of the stuff I mentioned above) are a little bit more than probably the vast majority of fan project (and all honestly, I have played so far). I couldn't point to the exact thing why, but they just feel.... canonical experiences (except maybe Arcadia). First, they are accessible for more people IMHO than ANY non pro wads. I mean, some say Sigil is hard, but I think it really isn't. It just needs more classic approach with the narrow walkways and environmental hazards. But it's a very playable episode, especially on HMP, which used to be the default skill back then.

 

Then, somehow these levels have layouts that are more clear, and progression is never an issue in them. You always explore a new type of area, you always feel you're in a middle of an adventure, instead of hitting the switch, go back to the door, get the key, kill the spawned monsters, go to the door, repeat. Key hunting in these maps are just side effects of constant exploration. This kind of chore almost never appears in these maps, or not in the level when it ruins the fun.

 

Also, these maps seem to have a better sense of place. With a few exceptions like the uncharacteristically mediocre secret level in Sigil, you can memorize all the locations, you can relate them even if they are fictional places. There is always a visual narrative, and it never gets worn out. I've seen some very good, even wonderful visual narratives in non pro wads, but they were either looked too different from Doom's original style (think Ancient Aliens for example) or overstayed their welcome (many megawads suffer from these). I also think when people start making id style wads, they always ended up being remaking the old stuff again. I don't think it's particularly great on long term, as said pro levels always end up using new things, just within the style of the original Doom. The shootable eye mechanic was the most famous of these. Who would have thought this can work? And it works. Now you can't even see that thing again without wanting to shoot it.

 

NRFTL is less revolutionary, but it still had distinct visual narratives within the old limits, like the way the layouts constructed (and 8 type shape, when you consistently move in a linear path, but often end up in a previously seen location, and the rare case of backtracking like in RotS yellow skull, there is an alternate path to the door you haven't seen. The use of secrets is also clever in NRFTL, and the levels all looked different with telling a different story. Squibbons's approach is very interesting as he made 4 different maps with the same red tiles, and all ended up extremely different in their layouts and feel.

 

In short, I think these mapsets/maps would have worked without the official/Romero tag in them, and they were all cacoward worthy stuff easily. They look like something that feels commercial (RotS and Arcadia less so, one because of the Brutal Doom compatibility, which hurt it a little, the other has some user vibes like a bit more confusing layout). I can't honestly think of too many other Doom projects that can be sold commercially by id honestly. There might be some minor stuff that are missing in them maybe or I don't know. I hope I didn't hurt anybody with this thread, but I think this is worthy of it's own discussion.

Edited August 1, 2019 by eulo

[Graf Zahl]

About Sigil I am not so sure whether it would have registered as anything special.

In the end it's just another Doom 1 episode with a visual and gameplay style that is extremely polarizing - the opinions I have heard range from "best thing since sliced bread" to "abomination of epic proportions", with most centered somewhere in the middle, citing some good stuff about it but heavily criticizing other elements.

 

I personally can't even say it's the best retro-style Doom 1 mod of the last year - that I'd give to Jimmy's "Deathless" in a heartbeat, I had infinitely more fun playing through those 4 episodes than through Sigil. Ultimately I'd say Sigil is ok - but 90% of it was Romero hype, nothing more.

 

 

 

[ReaperAA]

I agree with Graf here.

[Chezza]

Basically, yes I get your point.

 

Sigil and other recent Romero releases get special praise and exposure because it's him. I personally would have given his Wad a once off unique award in the cacoawards and let another worth while Wad win.

 

Sigil is a good Wad but not special. I enjoyed it and wish we had that instead of episode 4.

 

I'm really happy Romero made his Wads, it's very special for the Doom community and is a rare thing to happen. I understand the hype and praise, I'm ok with it.

[Mordeth]

24 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

SIGIL is full of bold choices

 

Crushers right before/after doors; hiding playable area parts from the automap by making all lines hidden; even more fucking crushers; an often open-ended map but with only one 'right' approach. And an initial bug that would leave a player potentially unable to finish a level on several occasions. I think that neatly summarizes the bad parts up for me.  Best part? Easily the consistent stylistic approach to the underlying theme.

[Sparktimus]

I think it a bit unfair to call Sigil "90% Romero Hype" because if this were released by a different person, I still think it would be lauded pretty decently. Nothing Cacoward worthy I think, but it would still be considered a damn good Doom 1 Episode, especially since making a significantly good thing for Doom 1 in general is hard in and of itself these days. It's stylistically very bold and and different from a standard episode replacement. Many uses of lighting and lack thereof not only to create landmarks or add visual flair to the maps, but also to mechanically challenge the player. The gameplay is still distinctly Romero with lots of very tight and enclosed fights and precarious ledge-hugging. Things like this make me think that even if Romero hadn't have penned this, it still would've been quite a highlight upon its release.

As far as NRFTL is concerned, again, I don't really think much would change had it not been an "official" episode. Hell, it wasn't made by any of the original id boys so I'd say it arguably doesn't have much of a reputation as something like Sigil enjoys. A decent little set of maps that feel like your standard Doom 2 map replacements, but not really in a bad way. Lots of cool architecture and layouts to help it stay memorable along with some competent to strong monster placement so the gameplay doesn't ever really drag like it really could.

These wads aren't anything I would consider all that grandiose, but I think too many people are reading the respect people have for Romero as mindless dick-riding when I think people are just happy that he's still got it and can release something like Sigil. I mean of course some people are going to click on it when they see who made it, but that doesn't really just apply to Romero himself. If we're talking about the context of this forum, people will click on things if they are made by Skillsaw or Mechadon for instance. Doesn't necessarily mean these people are only popular because of their name. Same thing applies to Romero.

Take the id aspect out of it. Let's pretend that Romero is just a community member like the rest of us. I still think his E1M4 and E1M8 maps would receive about the same praise as they did when they were released, maybe minus the Cacoward and the over-scrutinizing comparing it to his earlier id maps. Same thing with Sigil. I think people are too focused on other's focusing on the name value of John Romero himself instead of whether or not these particular wads even needed that name value to succeed at all. And it's not like Romero could release anything and have it get heaped with praise. He couldn't just draw 3 square sectors, put some imps in it, and call it a day I don't think. It's clear that Sigil isn't gonna be everyone's cup of tea, but you'd have to be blind to think that something like that didn't have a great deal of time and effort put into it.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Sparktimus

[Fonze]

You can't compare the publicity an official, endorsed work, or a famous person's work, will receive, especially if it has advertising and/or official backing behind it, to that which an average community member would receive, more-so if they only release it on one forum in our highly fragmented overall community in which everybody has a different type of Doom experience they enjoy, typically separated by preference with the forum/community they prefer to visit. This also greatly affects the type of reception you'll see for these works as official stuff, stuff backed by advertising, and stuff backed by star-power are going to appeal to so, so many more people that wouldn't make time for that particular wad, let alone those who wouldn't normally touch a doom wad in the first place. Even the peer pressure/social compliance alone is enough to get people to want to play stuff like that, if nothing else so they have something to talk about at the nerd water cooler with their doom buds since all of them will be talking about it.

 

Would NRftL have gotten the same exposure if not backed by both Bethesda/Id and a commercial rerelease of Doom 3? Lol no.

Would Sigil have gotten the same exposure if not backed by Romero using it and the collectable memorabilia that shipped with it, including commercial collab with Buckethead, as an advertising campaign for himself to stay relevant as he works towards his next commercial product? No again.

[Sparktimus]

13 minutes ago, Fonze said:

You can't compare the publicity an official, endorsed work, or a famous person's work, will receive, especially if it has advertising and/or official backing behind it, to that which an average community member would receive, more-so if they only release it on one forum. This also greatly affects the type of reception you'll see for these works as official stuff, stuff backed by advertising, and stuff backed by star-power are going to appeal to so, so many more people that wouldn't make time for that particular wad, let alone those who wouldn't normally touch a doom wad in the first place. Even the peer pressure alone is enough to get people to want to play stuff like that, if nothing else so they have something to talk about at the nerd water cooler with their doom buds since all of them will be talking about it.

 

Would NRftL have gotten the same exposure if not backed by both Bethesda/Id and a commercial rerelease of Doom 3? Lol no.

Would Sigil have gotten the same exposure if not backed by Romero using it and the collectable memorabilia that shipped with it, including commercial collab with Buckethead, as an advertising campaign for himself to stay relevant as he works towards his next commercial product? No again.

 

In terms of commercial success outside of the greater Doom community, I'll agree with you. But in the context of the Doom community itself, I don't really see why something like Sigil would be forgotten about as easily as some people would suggest. I can't say the same for NRFTL, but Sigil definitely doesn't look or play like a run-of-the-mill Doom 1 pwad.

There's no way to deny that Romero's name is a part of the wad's popularity, but its grossly underestimating the quality to say that it's responsible for most of its success. I think that has more to do with the thing just being mostly good.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Sparktimus

[Fonze]

7 minutes ago, Sparktimus said:

 

In terms of commercial success outside of the greater Doom community, I'll agree with you. But in the context of the Doom community itself, I don't really see why something like Sigil would be forgotten about as easily as some people would suggest. I can't say the same for NRFTL, but Sigil definitely doesn't look or play like a run-of-the-mill Doom 1 pwad.

There's no way to deny that Romero's name is a part of the wad's popularity, but its grossly underestimating the quality to say that it's responsible for most of its success. I think that has more to do with the thing just being mostly good.

 

I agree with you and would just like to point out that at no point did I say anything that would contradict that statement.

[Sparktimus]

Just now, Fonze said:

 

I agree with you and would just like to point out that at no point did I say anything that would contradict that statement.

Oh okay lol. It kinda looked like you were referring to my statement before of people being excited for a Romero thing not being unlike people being excited for a Skillsaw/Mechadon thing.

 

I don't really mean for it to look like I'm comparing the work of Romero to those community members. More so just saying that people being excited for something Romero made not being too unlike the latter.

[Fonze]

15 minutes ago, Sparktimus said:

Oh okay lol. It kinda looked like you were referring to my statement before of people being excited for a Romero thing not being unlike people being excited for a Skillsaw/Mechadon thing.

 

I don't really mean for it to look like I'm comparing the work of Romero to those community members. More so just saying that people being excited for something Romero made not being too unlike the latter.

 

Ah, yeah my bad too; I was referring to the OP's questions, but I could have made that more clear with a direct quote.

[Graf Zahl]

1 hour ago, Sparktimus said:

There's no way to deny that Romero's name is a part of the wad's popularity, but its grossly underestimating the quality to say that it's responsible for most of its success. I think that has more to do with the thing just being mostly good.

 

Here's the question: Is it really *good* or is it just not bad because Romero can't do bad?

With releases like this one the bias induced by its creator can never be discounted when assessing its quality.

 

I wonder how this would have been received if done by someone else. It's very far off the beaten path for what people expect from Doom, and we all know the public's demand for "more of the same". I also cannot really say that the way it tried something different appealed much to me.

 

Like I already said, I found this to be a map set that is highly polarizing, it surely should get credit for not playing it safe, but whether that would have been enough without the Romero tag attached to it is something that can never be answered - but I doubt it, a lot of players probably would have quit after the first level or so.

 

[ReaperAA]

2 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

Here's the question: Is it really *good* or is it just not bad because Romero can't do bad?

With releases like this one the bias induced by its creator can never be discounted when assessing its quality.

 

Personally i would say that Sigil is good even without the Romero tag (I am not being biased here). It is not terrible or even mediocre as some people say.

 

However it is just "good". It is nowhere near worthy of shower praising either. And I would agree that most of the goodness of Sigil is because of its bold direction and not following the typical good level design tropes.

[yakfak]

I think Sigil's amazing cos it attempts to re-establish darkness and claustrophobia as the main weapons of doom

it's not like I'm gonna play it on UV anytime, I'm not interested in matching up against modern difficulty

the unnerving feeling still reaches the lowest difficulties because the layouts are anti-relaxation and that's impressive to me.

 

if something's good because it's experimental then that means it's good, not some sort of tainted, qualified "good" that isn't really good because you're busy exhibiting second-hand embarrassment on behalf of yr imagined idea of the puzzled masses.

[Graf Zahl]

2 minutes ago, yakfak said:

if something's good because it's experimental then that means it's good, not some sort of tainted, qualified "good" that isn't really good because you're busy exhibiting second-hand embarrassment on behalf of yr imagined idea of the puzzled masses.

 

On the downside the "experimental" tag would most likely have kept it out of the mainstream. And that's where the mod is so hard to judge. Being made by Romero helped a lot to overcome this issue.

 

NRFTL on the other hand is a very traditional, but extremely well-made map set. I think that this would have been extremely popular if released as a free user mod. It's just what people might instantly like.

 

[eulo]

While NRFTL and Sigil have vastly different approaches, with the former being a traditional but extremely polished and accessible mapset, and the latter being experimental (although I for one can see Nightmare Underworld as a map in NRFTL with some D2 assets), and intentionally throws you into the uncomfortable hell, but the two still feel to me as mapsets where vintage Doom style excels with strong sense of constant change and progression without repeating themselves, or overstaying their welcome.

[ketmar]

as for me, "being done by Romero" matters alot. because if not Romero, i'd not even finish Sigil -- i don't like Hell-themed maps. also, i don't play maps that puts cybbie or mastermind as a normal gameplay element, not as a final boss (yes, the famous duel map from Doom2 is not an exception ;-).

 

so, at least for me, if not Romero, Sigil would be: "meh. i am not interested. next, please!"

 

p.s.: i still didn't finished NRFTL. not impressed at all. not that it is bad, i am just not impressed.

[3saster]

E1M8b (haven't played E1M4b) I didn't think very highly of. I didn't really like it much, and only I think it only received the attention it did because Romero-hype. I believe it would have been ignored had it not been made by Romero. It certainly doesn't deserve a Cacoward if you ask me. At the very least, it didn't rob another WAD of a Cacoward, so at least that was nice.

 

SIGIL is alright. I enjoyed it and had my fun with it. IMO a decent mapset, but not Cacoward-worthy. I will say it does a good job of continuing what the style from the Ultimate Doom though, but tbh I don't actually like the Ultimate Doom that much. I'm a much bigger fan of more modern-style WADs like Base Ganymede. I'd be curious how this would have gone down if Romero didn't announce this and just released it out of nowhere.

No Rest for the Living, on the other hand, really is outstanding IMO. Traditional perhaps, but as Graf said extremely well-made. I think it would have easily won a Cacoward regardless of who made it or if it was a free WAD, it really is that good I think. The fact that it's official is a neat touch more than anything.

[seed]

Can't say much about NRFTL as I have only seen plenty of video footage of it, I didn't get to it yet, but that being said, it does seem to be pretty damn good so I wouldn't say its reputation is just a result of Bethesda promoting/marketing the expansion. It's a traditional kind of expansion, but a fine one.

 

As for Sigil, yeah, it suffices to say that it's not only divisive among Doomers, but it's likely that it received plenty of praise simply because it is a Romero WAD and a spiritual successor to UD/TFC. But, does that mean it's bad? That very much depends on who you ask, it's polarizing, but my honest opinion? It's definitely good, and knows what its strengths are and focuses on that, plus it has plenty of creative ideas (sorry, I think the crusher maze was brilliant) and tons of atmosphere which carries both E3 and E4 vibes (and it also seems to be heavily inspired by E4, and much more consistent than it ever was). It's definitely not the sadistic hot garbage some people would love to make it be, but it's certainly nothing jaw-dropping either. The problem with Sigil is that it's just that: good, but not great.

 

The "b" levels Romero made before are a nice hint at what to expect from Sigil, but I don't think they belong in the original E1. What I mean by that is that they do stand out, but not in a very positive way, so they would work only as secret/bonus maps due to how radically different both maps are from the rest of the episode, and not as part of regular progression. I find them inferior to Sigil, but still decent. Yet Sigil eclipses the "b" levels overall.

[Loud Silence]

I haven't played NRFTL yet. Sigil levels look damn good for Doom-1-stock-resources maps, but that's it. Gameplay is annoying AF and gets boring quickly. Too many tight areas/situations: very thin stairs (above damaging floor with no way out) and enemies above you, thin way next to lava and four Barons with you... I have played through Sigil on UV multiple times, but NEVER had any fun with it. Romero can make maps, but he have no idea how to make a fun gameplay. Why he have any fans???

[Super Mighty G]

Much of Sigil amounts to Romero thinking "how big of a dick can I be to the player"? Then again I played it on UV. I'm told HMP is much more manageable and in retrospect I should have played on that skill. 

[whirledtsar]

13 hours ago, eulo said:

NRFTL is less revolutionary, but it still had distinct visual narratives within the old limits, like the way the layouts constructed (and 8 type shape, when you consistently move in a linear path, but often end up in a previously seen location, and the rare case of backtracking like in RotS yellow skull, there is an alternate path to the door you haven't seen. The use of secrets is also clever in NRFTL, and the levels all looked different with telling a different story. Squibbons's approach is very interesting as he made 4 different maps with the same red tiles, and all ended up extremely different in their layouts and feel.

NRFTL is actually not vanilla-compatible, they raised the limits of their port for it.

[kb1]

Regarding Sigil, sure, there's bias because Romero made it. But, it's also good because Romero made it. The man knows games.

[Graf Zahl]

8 hours ago, kb1 said:

But, it's also good because Romero made it. The man knows games.

 

Behold the bias in full effect... :P

 

[Fonze]

Right just discount all of romeros years in the gaming industry and talk about bias graf... 

[Nine Inch Heels]

What Sigil does well is establishing its own "lore". Shootable eye switches, the use of the marbface texture as exit switches, the darkness in many places as well as how impactful the secrets are. All that makes it a thing of its own that some people will like and others will not. Having said that, Sigil isn't the only WAD ever built that establishes its own rules as part of the mechanics players will need to deal with in order to make progress. I can appreciate Sigil for having the balls to kill people in supposedly nasty ways instead of dropping its pants for the player like a shameless bitch, however.

 

But, despite all this, Sigil isn't something that only a John Romero could have come up with simply by virtue of being John Romero. Arguments like "It's good because it's Romero, and Romero knows games" are fucking lost on me, and as far I'm concerned these arguments hold no merit whatsoever. This community has plenty of people going for it who "know games" as good as -if not better than- Romero, in particular classic Doom and its many unique quirks. Matter of fact, Romero was witty enough to be aware of this, and take advantage of it, by getting somebody like dew to playtest his maps. So if you construct an argument like "it's good because it's Romero" you are naturally opening yourself up to accusations of hero worship and bias, and I can't fault anybody who takes a stab at that line of arguing in some way shape or form, because you've just painted a target on your own forehead. And don't even get me started on some of the shit people sell nowadays after having been "in the industry" for years or decades even.

 

If Sigil were released by some other forum user, dropped here with its own thread... Sure, folks would have checked it out, but would it have received much attention beyond the reaches of DoomWorld, let alone articles by gaming news outlets? I highly doubt it. Most of the ripples Sigil caused were induced by Romero and his PR for the project, and I don't think this is a question anybody really needs answered. If you think Sigil would have made as much of a splash if it wasn't "big name + big PR", you're probably unaware of your own bias. Within the confines of DoomWorld it would have inspired some discussions, perhaps it might have gotten an honourable mention in the cacowards for its slightly unusual merits and artistic choices, but I don't see it going far beyond that (if it even got as far).

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, Fonze said:

Right just discount all of romeros years in the gaming industry and talk about bias graf... 

 

So what? Even a veteran needs to have their output judged on objective facts, not their past achievements.

 

[jazzmaster9]

9 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Behold the bias in full effect... :P

 

YOu mean, behold John Romero having good foundations in game design knowledge.

The guy knows his Doom and you CANT really deny it since he had a hand in making the groundworks.

 

Discrediting all that IS Bias... how ironic

[ReaperAA]

4 hours ago, Fonze said:

Right just discount all of romeros years in the gaming industry and talk about bias graf... 

 

7 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

YOu mean, behold John Romero having good foundations in game design knowledge.

The guy knows his Doom and you CANT really deny it since he had a hand in making the groundworks

 

Pretty sure Graf (and everyone else) is well aware of Romero's achievements and respects him. His reply was a response to kb1 who said "it's also good because Romero made it" as if anything is automatically good when Romero makes it.

 

*cough* Daikatana *cough*

[jazzmaster9]

1 minute ago, ReaperAA said:

 

 

Pretty sure Graf (and everyone else) is well aware of Romero's achievements and respects him. His response was a reply to kb1 saying "it's also good because Romero made it" as if anything is automatically good when Romero makes it.

 

*cough* Daikatana *cough*

I doubt Sigil can even be comparable to Daikatana... for one thing Sigil is a Doom related project and Romero is proven in that aspect.