How NRFTL or Sigil would be treated without....

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I doubt Sigil can even be comparable to Daikatana... for one thing Sigil is a Doom related project and Romero is proven in that aspect.

Daikatana serves as an example that arguments like "it's good because Romero" are nonsense. Romero isn't infallible, and Sigil certainly has moments where that shows, for example the anticlimactic boss fight. Saying "Romero is proven" when it comes to classic Doom is wearing your hero worship on a sleeve.

[jazzmaster9]

Well Romero isnt in my top 5 mappers so i dont see any Hero Worshiping on my end.

But Sigil is really good mapset and its because of Romero's experience and familiarity with the base game.

[Nine Inch Heels]

That on the other hand I can agree with. Sigil is a decent episode, and that's because somebody with some experience put some thought into it. But Romero isn't the only one who's able to accomplish that is my line of arguing. ;-)

[ReaperAA]

@jazzmaster9 I would like to say the Sigil is pretty decent. When I mentioned Daikatana, I didn't mean that Sigil is like that. What I meant has already been said by NIH:

 

22 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Daikatana serves as an example that arguments like "it's good because Romero" are nonsense.

[3saster]

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If Sigil were released by some other forum user, dropped here with its own thread... Sure, folks would have checked it out, but would it have received much attention beyond the reaches of DoomWorld, let alone articles by gaming news outlets? I highly doubt it. Most of the ripples Sigil caused were induced by Romero and his PR for the project, and I don't think this is a question anybody really needs answered. If you think Sigil would have made as much of a splash if it wasn't "big name + big PR", you're probably unaware of your own bias. Within the confines of DoomWorld it would have inspired some discussions, perhaps it might have gotten an honourable mention in the cacowards for its slightly unusual merits and artistic choices, but I don't see it going far beyond that (if it even got as far).

 

Out of curiosity, are there any other major mapsets that received a lot of attention outside DoomWorld? Plenty of excellent gameplay mods receive outside attention (and a certain "remake"), but it seems mapsets tend to be ignored. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only major ones I saw (besides pseudo-official stuff) were Ancient Aliens and Eviternity; the former coincides with DOOM 2016's release, and the latter with Doom's 25th birthday. I wonder if they would have received that exposure if the dates had not lined up nicely.

Regardless of quality, it's hard to deny that the Romero-stamp certainly gives a lot of extra attention to it. It reminds me of when Stephen King used the pseudonym Richard Bachman partially to answer if it's his talent or his name that makes his books successful. When Bachman's identity was revealed, the books published under that name skyrocketed in sales, and the experiment ended inconclusively. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he released Misery under Bachman as intended, since that's widely considered one of King's best works.

[Nine Inch Heels]

34 minutes ago, 3saster said:

Out of curiosity, are there any other major mapsets that received a lot of attention outside DoomWorld?

There really isn't much that garners attention in the "outside world" I'm afraid. You have your odd megawad releases every so often, maybe a set here and there, but footage about mods seems easier to "produce" than an analysis of an entire megawad à la Valiant, for example: "Here's what the mod does, this is what it looks like in a map full of stuff, and yeah it's ridiculous fun" that's your 10 minute video for a gameplay mod, if it even needs to be that long. Working through a megawad, or an entire episode replacement is not as easy, doubly so when your viewers, readers, whatevers expect you to pass some verdict about the final product.

 

So it seems to me that there's a natural tendency to have increased output on mods, never mind that decent episode replacements or entire megawads take much longer to produce than your average mod, even though something like Ancient Aliens isn't a 1-man-show, for that matter. Now, obviously there are exceptions to the rules, and I'm sure some mods out there have been in the works for quite extensive periods of time, but I'd still argue that releasing a video that talks about a gameplay mod is easier to produce, especially if the "average joe" is your target audience.

[Fonze]

Delete; apologies.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Fonze

[TheMightyHeracross]

No Rest for the Living would probably be more popular if it wasn't "official" since no one wants to buy BFG Edition for a Doom 2 episode :P. The maps themselves are top-notch though and I could still see it winning a Cacoward without being official.

 

Sigil would also be well-received, but more polarizing, due to the love-it-or-hate-it nature of its oppressive, close-quarters combat style. Given the successes of Deathless and Lunar Catastrophe, oldschool U-Doom mapping still clearly has an audience, contrary to popular belief, and while it's relatively short I think Sigil would still hold up as a fun, tough, and surprisingly atmospheric episode. So I think it's a bit unfair to say "people only like it cuz Romero."

[Sparktimus]

I wish people would stop dragging out Daikatana as some argument against Sigil because the two are hardly linked besides being headed off by the same person.

 

It's more of a testament to the fallibility of the creator, basically highlighting that Romero IS a human being and not a map-making god like he's often touted. Using it as a reason that Sigil isn't as good a wad as people think makes absolutely no sense, though

[Graf Zahl]

7 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

So I think it's a bit unfair to say "people only like it cuz Romero."

 

Well, read the thread and you find several opinions saying exactly that.

 

And this actually warrants the question, how much of considering the episode good is the Romero effect and how much is genuine quality?

It's a question that unfortunately cannot be answered definitively but there's no doubt that the Romero effect is strong with this one because the hero worship on display in this thread cannot be discounted.

 

 

[Crunchynut44]

Romero created Doom, and after all this time he still gives to this community. He has more than earnt his right to publicity and infamousy for Sigil, anybody on the " it's not fair that Sigil has gotten so much attention because he is Romero" has their head up their arse.

[wheresthebeef]

I played Sigil specifically because Romero made it, same as the two B maps for Episode 1.

 

I replayed them because I thought they were really fun and I liked them. I will replay them again in the future. On their own, they are good and a fun time and worth the praise.

 

I likely would have never played them if his name wasn't attached and I do wonder what mapsets are currently out there I would end up loving that I have no idea exist.

Edited July 29, 2019 by wheresthebeef

[jazzmaster9]

18 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Well, read the thread and you find several opinions saying exactly that.

 

And this actually warrants the question, how much of considering the episode good is the Romero effect and how much is genuine quality?

It's a question that unfortunately cannot be answered definitively but there's no doubt that the Romero effect is strong with this one because the hero worship on display in this thread cannot be discounted.

 

 

Most of what ive seen in this thread is that people think Sigil is "ONLY LIKED because it has romero involved," But having played it, its very Good in its own right. I put this in a list of mapsets i enjoyed this year so far.

[Graf Zahl]

4 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Most of what ive seen in this thread is that people think Sigil is "ONLY LIKED because it has romero involved," But having played it, its very Good in its own right. I put this in a list of mapsets i enjoyed this year so far. 

 

Yep, such people certainly do exist - at least one posted right here in the thread. When you approach the mod with "Romero cannot do wrong." you'll have no chance to get an unbiased opinion.

 

But constantly trying to make this the focus is a typical case of ignoring the discussion and using on one single aspect to invalidate it.

 

Reality is a lot more complex, as you would see if you read through all the posts here. Some people liked what it had to offer, some people liked it because of Romero, others didn't enjoy it because the gameplay wasn't to their liking and yet others didn't like it because of Romero or the hype Romero has stirred up - and let's not forget the large group of players who would never have played it without Romero.

 

So whatever is up here, you can't discount the Romero factor.

 

[eulo]

It seems I opened a can of worms with this thread sadly. I decided to give Deathless a try, since it was directly compared to Sigil as a reference point of a good, cacowad worthy UD wad this year. I played episode 1 only, read episode 3 and 4 are not very good, but episode 2 should deserve a try as well.

 

As much as I respect Jimmy, honestly comparing this to Sigil is completely delusional and biased IMO. Not that the episode was any bad, nice timesink overall, but really... the levels barely progress. You play the exact same thing in 9 parts. There was a nice touch in level 5 for atmosphere, but it had been done to death already, and in more impressive ways. The baron stuff in the end used a nice mini-slaughter twist, but that's all. The secret level is a Gotcha remake. The rest is completely unremarkable, there is no real sense of place, levels don't have their identity, there were the frequent push-button-go-to-door-get-the-key-beat-monster-closet-repeat stuff.

 

The maps were made in 9 days (36 maps), which sounds somewhat cool, but gives you a warning that quality might not be there. I'm not a big fan of Perfect Hatred, it's my least favourite Romero level by a mile, but doing a speedmap session for once is ok, for 4 episodes, it's not, other than the curiosity. Deathless episode 1 IMHO was just an autopilot episode, with the mixed feel of computer generated levels, some out of place graphics, and reused ideas of old maps.

 

You can hate Sigil's polarising gameplay, but play it once, and you will remember every level, probably every location, and won't forget it any time soon. It's a mapset of an innovator, not a follower. Just look at the random pics I made from YT videos below: One pic is from Deathless episode 1. Which was that level? Other is from Sigil. Which was that level? You know the second one, and doubt you know the first.

[Graf Zahl]

3 hours ago, eulo said:

As much as I respect Jimmy, honestly comparing this to Sigil is completely delusional and biased IMO.

 

Fortunately opinions differ. I could easily turn the entire sentence around:

"As much as I respect Romero, honestly comparing this to [insert favorite WAD here] is completely delusional and biased IMO."

And would get the same amount of truth as your statement, i.e. it's just an opinion.

 

 

3 hours ago, eulo said:

You can hate Sigil's polarising gameplay, but play it once, and you will remember every level, probably every location, and won't forget it any time soon.

 

 

That's making a bold assumption. Here's again the same problem: Like something and you'll remember it. Even strongly disliking something may make you remember it - but what about the middle ground? My personal relation towards Sigil was one of profound indifference. Nothing in it struck me as particularly memorable, aside from those eye switches. I'd have problems recalling how the levels looked, they were all dark and either brown or green and contained lava, but that's it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Budoka]

On 7/26/2019 at 7:51 PM, Super Mighty G said:

Much of Sigil amounts to Romero thinking "how big of a dick can I be to the player"? Then again I played it on UV. I'm told HMP is much more manageable and in retrospect I should have played on that skill. 

He's always been that way to an extent though, like with those obnoxiously positionned Mancubus snipers in The Living End. But somehow it usually just works out. Anyway, 3saster is right on all three accounts as far as I'm concerned.

[zzzornbringer]

On 7/26/2019 at 8:52 AM, eulo said:

RotS

may i ask what that acronym means? link would be much appreciated as well. 

[eulo]

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Fortunately opinions differ. I could easily turn the entire sentence around:

"As much as I respect Romero, honestly comparing this to [insert favorite WAD here] is completely delusional and biased IMO."

And would get the same amount of truth as your statement, i.e. it's just an opinion.

 

 

 

That's making a bold assumption. Here's again the same problem: Like something and you'll remember it. Even strongly disliking something may make you remember it - but what about the middle ground? My personal relation towards Sigil was one of profound indifference. Nothing in it struck me as particularly memorable, aside from those eye switches. I'd have problems recalling how the levels looked, they were all dark and either brown or green and contained lava, but that's it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course opinions can differ, everyone can say ie. Limp Bizkit is better than Pink Floyd, and there are no objective criteria that prove that statement wrong. Remarkable, original levels with new ideas (without altering the original game's style) is a pretty strong argument though. Deathless (episode 1 at least) is more or less using the original ideas for the umpteenth time, was made in a few days, levels are very similar, while Sigil created a brand new experience without detouring from the original style. That's quite objective statement, and hating that new experience is the subjective part of it.

[eulo]

1 hour ago, zzzornbringer said:

may i ask what that acronym means? link would be much appreciated as well. 

 

Redemption of the Slain... since it's not that well known wad it wasn't a good idea to bring it up.

[Mengo]

Sigil definitely wouldve been seen as another "extremely mediocre episode with not much going for it at all" kinda wad

[Linguica]

We could split people into two groups:

 

1) People who played SIGIL because John Romero made it

2) People who would have played SIGIL anyway, regardless of who made it

 

Group 1 is way, way bigger than group 2, and the only reason they showed up is because of the Romero connection. If it was made by someone else we would have to set all these people and their opinions aside because they would have never even heard of it.

 

Group 2 is largely Doomworld regulars - people who have played a lot more PWADs than Romero ever has and are a lot more familiar with the community output. In this group, the Romero connection means a lot less as these people will invariably compare Romero's maps to the rest of the community output anyway.

 

So the question is kind of pointless. Yes, if you limited the audience to elitist purist Doomworld grognards, SIGIL would be considered comparatively less impressive. But so what? Why would we want that?

[Loud Silence]

On 7/27/2019 at 4:15 AM, kb1 said:

Regarding Sigil, sure, there's bias because Romero made it. But, it's also good because Romero made it. The man knows games. 

How many times have you played through Daikatana and how you loved it? "Man knows the games".

Doom was made by a good team and Romero was lucky to be part of it. Why it's so rare to hear cheerings to other Doom team members? Like game engine, all maps, textures, sprites, sounds, animations, music were all made by an "FPS God Romero"... Romero is only a human like all of us and not so talented, especially in comparison to some community mappers and modders.

[geo]

As someone who doesn't play every mod like some of us here do, the name Sigil doesn't jump out nearly as much as "John Romero." Sigil would have been another lost in a week of 25 years of Doom .wads. Even the greatest of modern Doom .wads would get lost to the fame of those that were 20 years prior to them.

 

I wonder what kind of fame and level design a 9 level map pack from John Carmack would bring.

[Solmyr]

Sigil is a good Ultimate Doom episode, what episode 4 should've been imho. However it doesn't deserve the amount of praise it got when judged by it's own merits.

[eulo]

16 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

Sigil is a good Ultimate Doom episode, what episode 4 should've been imho. However it doesn't deserve the amount of praise it got when judged by it's own merits.

 

The amount of praise? This thread basically ended in Romero bashing. I hope the master doesn't read this.

[Dragonfly]

43 minutes ago, eulo said:

This thread basically ended in Romero bashing.

 

You're really missing the point here.

[Solmyr]

8 hours ago, eulo said:

I hope the master doesn't read this.

Heh. What is he going to do? Shoot spawn cubes at heretics who doesn't praise his work based on his holiness name alone? 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Solmyr

[wheresthebeef]

2 hours ago, Loud Silence said:

How many times have you played through Daikatana and how you loved it? "Man knows the games".

Doom was made by a good team and Romero was lucky to be part of it. Why it's so rare to hear cheerings to other Doom team members? Like game engine, all maps, textures, sprites, sounds, animations, music were all made by an "FPS God Romero"... Romero is only a human like all of us and not so talented, especially in comparison to some community mappers and modders.

 

The irony of your hyperbole is palpable.

Also if the other original members of id Software were to create new custom content for it then they'd get plenty of exposure, too. AFAIK the most any of them have done is talk about Doom on its anniversaries in a tweet or something similar.

Edited July 29, 2019 by wheresthebeef

[wheresthebeef]

1 hour ago, geo said:

As someone who doesn't play every mod like some of us here do, the name Sigil doesn't jump out nearly as much as "John Romero." Sigil would have been another lost in a week of 25 years of Doom .wads. Even the greatest of modern Doom .wads would get lost to the fame of those that were 20 years prior to them.

 

I wonder what kind of fame and level design a 9 level map pack from John Carmack would bring.

I'd be interested in a John Carmack source port of Doom or something similar, that would be more his wheelhouse.

 

A Sandy Peterson map pack I would be interested to see. Same for Tom Hall or any of the other Doom level designers. It would be even better if they all got together for a megawad. Get the whole gang back together for new levels, weapons, enemies, and music.

 

It was fun playing the new Duke3D episode Allen Blum and the Levelord made for World Tour. Seeing how their new map designs compare to their stuff from 20 years before is great!