How NRFTL or Sigil would be treated without....

[eulo]

12 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Shame that this supposedly huge difference in perspective doesn't show much in Sigil then. Past the eye switches and a few other "memorable" quirks it isn't really that unique in the grand scheme of things, especially not when other "hobby mappers" managed to do very similar things in their maps without any "experience in the industry™" to begin with. Making an attempt at selling a few unconventional ideas as something only Romero could have brought to the table is bootlicking, and you know that. Community mappers have done that stuff long before Sigil was in the making, and I'm at most willing to concede that Romero might have done it better than some folks in their first handful of maps, and that's pretty much the full extent of the jam. And sorry, understanding that classic Doom's roster requires cramped terrain to be threatening isn't something only Romero knows, so don't even bother bringing that up.

 

Sigil has

- eye switches

- pictured doors for ending

- catwalks

- important secrets that are quintessential to your progression

- glowing cracks on floor and ceiling

- crusher maze

- Minotaur maze

- teleports that throw you back to previously visited areas with more enemies

- large cages

- sinister town with infested buildings

and other minor things like that interesting lost soul start in M8, or the secret area in M1

 

And all of this in a 9 map episode. Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff. You probably have to go back to Plutonia to see such innovative design.

 

But this doesn't make Sigil professional. NRFTL is not that innovative, yet it's a highly professional work as well. Cynical just got it right. Working in the gaming industry for full time job gives a big edge for professionals, who understand (or learn to understand) stuff like how to cooperate with the game producer, the graphic designers, the sound director, the other designers, the numerous beta testers, they are aware that their product is thrown into the market and their job depends on the game's success. They understand rules like how to make levels for a bigger crowd than a community of 50 to 100 members, which knows the actual game by heart, and unsee flaws that average joes spot early on. Can you really expect stuff like Deathless, NEIS, DTWID or even Valiant or Ancient Aliens on the market? Do you think that lesser Doom players would enjoy remixes of the early maps without any kind of remarkable additions or more innovative stuff without keeping the spirit of the original game (and with annoying difficulty/slaughter for most people)?

 

I sometimes wish some of the more talented community members make a group and make an Ion Maiden type game for the idtech1 with commercial purpose. That would be huge. Members of that team would learn immediately what is the professional approach especially if their product is getting major exposure. 

[Spectre01]

36 minutes ago, eulo said:

Sigil has

- eye switches

- pictured doors for ending

Ok. The rest of the list, however, is pretty standard stuff found in many wads over 20+ years and in no way unique to Sigil or "innovative". I mean really, large cages and glowing cracks? 

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff. You probably have to go back to Plutonia to see such innovative design.

I can simply pick SunLust because it's more innovative, looks better, is more diverse than Sigil, and it employs mechanics that make some of the maps entirely unique even within the megaWAD itself.. Now what? Sure didn't need luck for that, but hey, at least you tried.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Working in the gaming industry for full time job gives a big edge for professionals, who understand (or learn to understand) stuff like how to cooperate with the game producer, the graphic designers, the sound director, the other designers, the numerous beta testers, they are aware that their product is thrown into the market and their job depends on the game's success

None of this is any way relevant when it comes to building something like Sigil. It's a one man-show where any skill in "cooperative work" besides talking to playtesters is virtually useless. If making Doom maps was that hard, and required such a level of expertise, then almost nobody would do it, but here we are, sitting on more WADs than people can actually be bothered to play, many of which outclass Sigil in one or several aspects.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

They understand rules like how to make levels for a bigger crowd than a community of 50 to 100 members, which knows the actual game by heart, and unsee flaws that average joes spot early on.

Oh really? That's cute kid. Then why is it that Sigil is as polarizing as it is? Do you think that's because Romero had the perfect product for "the masses"? Doesn't look like that's the case. Maybe, just maybe, Sigil is being discussed so much because Romero ran a PR campaign for weeks and months on end, even created limited editions with collectibles, because fanservice... And also because it just so happens that the name "Romero" sells simply because there are enough fanboys around, who proudly proclaim to be "Romero's bitch"... All of that, by the way, is why sigil would have been received vastly differently, if Romero wasn't involved at any point. Matter of fact, dawg, chances are you wouldn't even have heard of it if Romero wasn't sounding the gong, let alone register an account on these forums.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Can you really expect stuff like Deathless, NEIS, DTWID or even Valiant or Ancient Aliens on the market?

Yup, and if Romero worked on any of those I could bet a month's worth of income that you'd be singing an entirely different song right here and right now. And I'm not saying these sets would sell because I like all of them (actually I don't), but what I am saying is that these sets would sell because more than enough people would like them.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Do you think that lesser Doom players would enjoy remixes of the early maps without any kind of remarkable additions or more innovative stuff without keeping the spirit of the original game (and with annoying difficulty/slaughter for most people)?

Yes. There are more than enough Doomers around who simply want more of the same, create more of the same, and complain when the next big thing isn't more of the same... Which is part of the reason why sigil is so polarizing in the first place (because it isn't more of the same, and many people didn't like that).

1 hour ago, eulo said:

I sometimes wish some of the more talented community members make a group and make an Ion Maiden type game for the idtech1 with commercial purpose

Except we can't do that for legal reasons, and actually some people in this community do indeed actively work in the industry on titles for "commercial purpose", and depending on who of them you ask the reactions towards sigil differ, because... let's face it... It doesn't stand out as much as you think it does.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Members of that team would learn immediately what is the professional approach especially if their product is getting major exposure

People have gotten major exposure for stuff like eviternity in gaming news outlets already. The skills that you think only a pro like John Romero has are already present in this community, and if you were around for longer than a month or two you would have known.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Nine Inch Heels

[JustCallMeKaito]

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- eye switches

Every Zelda game ever made.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- pictured doors for ending

Exit signs and a pretty shot to end on are preferable to this.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- catwalks

Nobody likes that shit. There's a reason narrow levels are hated, especially shit like "The Chasm".

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- important secrets that are quintessential to your progression

That's called bad design.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- glowing cracks on floor and ceiling

I'll give you a point for this. That is pretty much Romero's signature design right there.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- crusher maze

An idea that would work better in other games. In DOOM, the idea works on paper, but in-game? Nope.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- Minotaur maze

The Minotaur bit is new and interesting, yes. However, maze full of nope has been done before. See Plutonia Map11.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- teleports that throw you back to previously visited areas with more enemies

Despite mentioning Plutonia, you really haven't played Final Doom, have you?

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- large cages

There's straight up a map in Plutonia called "Caged". It's a giant effing cage that, bonus points, isn't a pain in the ass maze.

 

1 hour ago, eulo said:

- sinister town with infested buildings

Plutonia: Map05. Plutonia: Map29. Doom II: Map13. Doom II: Map15. Doom 2: Map16. Doom 2: Map17.

To add to this, the map I feel you're talking about is the worst in the entire pack.

1 hour ago, eulo said:

And all of this in a 9 map episode. Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff. You probably have to go back to Plutonia to see such innovative design.

Funny thing is that WADS continued to get more innovative as time went on. Plutonia is very memorable, yes. Since you seem to be inviting us to challenge this opinion, a brief list of some of my favorite WADS that were quite innovative are:

 

• Plutonia 2
• Action Doom
• Action Doom 2
• Golden Souls
• Golden Souls 2
• Valiant
• Doom: The Way ID Did
• Doom: The Way ID Did 2
• Knee-Deep In Zdoom
• Sunlust
• Sunder
• 50 Monsters
• 10 Sectors

 

  The list goes on, but I think that gets the point across. Sigil ultimately comes off as clumsy and far too experimental and suffers vastly as a result.

 

2 hours ago, eulo said:

Working in the gaming industry for full time job gives a big edge for professionals, who understand (or learn to understand) stuff like how to cooperate with the game producer, the graphic designers, the sound director, the other designers, the numerous beta testers, they are aware that their product is thrown into the market and their job depends on the game's success. They understand rules like how to make levels for a bigger crowd than a community of 50 to 100 members, which knows the actual game by heart, and unsee flaws that average joes spot early on.

One word.

Just. One.

 

                                                                                    Daikatana

[eulo]

Really, I give up.... haters gonna hate.

 

Oh wait: Just one little thing. Mentioning Plutonia is not valid. That was the most innovative wad of the 1990s. Despite this, the teleport back segment and the cages are totally different there than in Sigil, not to mention Map29, which has nothing in common with E5M5.

Edited July 30, 2019 by eulo

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Really, I give up.... haters gonna hate.

 

Oh wait: Just one little thing. Mentioning Plutonia is not valid. That was the most innovative wad of the 1990s. Despite this, the teleport back segment and the cages are totally different there than in Sigil, not to mention Map29, which has nothing in common with E5M5.

That thing about excluding Plutonia is an arbitrary restriction you tried imposing on us in hopes of making your argument more difficult to prove false. I was kind enough not to point that out the first time around, but since you're beating the same damn drum again, I figured I might as well: Sorry, "playground diplomacy" is lost on many of us.

 

Also "the cages are totally different"... Who gives a damn if their shape, their use, their content, and their positioning etc is different? You mentioned "large cages" as one of the things that made Sigil unique, and you've been proven wrong. Monster cages and "impassable midtexture use" to limit real estate while still providing something to look at and create a sense of "depth" exist in many, many other WADs. It's hilariously ironic that you even considered listing a core mapping technique as one of the standout things in Sigil while you're trying to praise Romero for being a great innovator. That only goes to show how little you've played this game, since evidently you've next to no clue what's already been done plenty of times over 2 decades. Also, let the record state, I'm not saying Sigil sucks, but it isn't my cup of tea on the gameplay side of things. I'm actually interested in playing the weird, quirky and innovative stuff, and unfortunately I've seen nothing in Sigil that I haven't seen somewhere else already.

 

Also also, just in case you hadn't noticed, you're doing a poor job at moving around goalposts here. Of course people used the stylistic approaches and methods employed in Sigil in ways that are different from what is shown in Sigil. Duhhh... Doesn't falsify the (unfortunate for you) fact that people have done similar stuff plenty of times already... All without Romero-senpai's direction and guidance... Like, totally on their own. Trying to sell your non-existent argument by way of saying, "Well map so-and-so in this WAD isn't similar enough to map this-and-that in the other WAD" is laughable at the best of times. But at least it shows that you've run out of "ammo", so I guess there is a silver lining at last.

 

Oh hey, I just noticed you mentioned "catwalks", too... Man, which one was the map that so many clumsy players hate? Right, the chasm, made by Sandy Peterson. So... Sandy made an entire map with tight catwalks and such, but Romero is an innovator because Sigil has catwalks, even though Sandy built "the chasm" more than 2 decades ago? Is that what you're trying to sell here?

 

But sure, keep telling yourself that all the actual arguments people could provide are null and void, and that it's all just hating on Romero. Seems like a tried and tested method to "throw a smoke bomb and do the ninja" once you've nothing more to give.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Nine Inch Heels

[Budoka]

I like Sigil, and for what it's worth I actually enjoyed Abbadon's Void. As far as quality wads with more creative content than Sigil though, Resurgence immediately came to mind. Then Ancient Aliens. For that matter, Speed of Doom and Valiant also check that box. So do both Scythes, Going Down(this one destroys Sigil creatvity-wise), Sunder, Sunlust, ALT(same remark as Going Down), and many, many others.

 

Also, Plutonia is great and very clever, but the most innovative wad of the 90s ? Not by a long shot. Try Icarus, Perdition's Gate, Memento Mori II, Eternal Doom, Hell Revealed, Strain... heck, if one wad deserves that label, it's Requiem, as much as might hate to admit that.

 

 

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I find sigil ok. What I find overrated is that one map wad he released before it, whatever it was called. 

[JustCallMeKaito]

1 hour ago, eulo said:

Really, I give up.... haters gonna hate.

 

Oh wait: Just one little thing. Mentioning Plutonia is not valid. That was the most innovative wad of the 1990s. Despite this, the teleport back segment and the cages are totally different there than in Sigil, not to mention Map29, which has nothing in common with E5M5.

This is ridiculous. The bottom line is that this WAD does nothing new and has no memorable moments.

4 hours ago, eulo said:

Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff.

Alright, you want memorable moments, so let's talk about boss levels. The most stand out moments in games.

 

The Bruiser Brothers emerging from those pillars.

The roar of an unseen cyberdemon circling the Tower of Babel.

The massive arena in the center of the hellish city of Dis inhabited by the spider mastermind.

The wooden fort guarded by the last spider demon with demons watching the fight from the stands?

 

 

E5 ends with a spider and a cyber in a dark, bland hallway.

[Gunstar Green]

I'm not going to lie here, for me the most important and attractive thing about Sigil is that it's made by John Romero. Is there bias? Hell yeah there is. Is that wrong though? For some of us who have been playing Doom from the start it was just cool to see him return to his baby, like an old rock star coming out of retirement to sing a classic hit song again. Maybe it's a little rusty, maybe the world has moved on, but for some of us the event itself is still important.

 

Anyone who really cares about Doom community content absolutely knows Sigil is not some ground breaking, innovative map set, and I'd argue it was never meant to be one anyway. Maybe it would be different if Sigil outright sucked but I don't think it's surprising that a pretty good Ultimate Doom WAD by John Romero himself is going to be loved and get a lot of attention especially by the old timers.

As for more casual fans whose knowledge of Doom WADs begins and ends with Sigil and think it's the greatest thing ever, they're not the people you make maps for anyway.

[Cynical]

6 hours ago, JustCallMeKaito said:

One word.

Just. One.

 

                                                                                    Daikatana

Is your point that Sigil is really good but people are dissing it because of its marketing?  Because Daikatana is a good game that just got a bunch of hate due to circumstances external to the game itself.

[Mordeth]

New pet theory: Sigil wouldn't catch so much criticism if it hadn't been Romero who made it...

[Andromeda]

First and foremost, I think Sigil is excellent, exactly my type of gameplay, but besides the eye switches it's not really innovative in the slightest.

8 hours ago, eulo said:

Sigil has

- Minotaur maze

The rest of the points have been discussed already, but I feel this one didn't get enough attention. The Cyberdemon is an enemy which has been terror inducing ever since Doom was released. A maze is the bane of most players, especially constructed to be confusing to navigate and is especially cumbersome if monsters are hunting you down while you try to find the way through. I feel mappers probably have tried to combine these two elements in some way before Sigil, and off the top of my head I got two examples:

• MAP08: Tomb of Malevolence from No Rest for the Living, containing a short but nerve-racking (pun not intended) Cyberdemon maze. Sure, if you press all the switches in the area it's not really a maze, but on your first play you're likely to not even realize they're there in the first place!
• MAP27: Cyberpunk from Hell Revealed, probably the most known Cyberdemon maze, in this level you first meet 6 inactive Cyberdemons (!), after pressing a switch they get alerted to your presence and teleport to a maze which you'll traverse later on. Very adrenaline pumping stuff!

[Ferk]

So many people here compare masterworks from teams of people with the work of 1 single man that wanted to make a WAD that had a vanilla feel using pretty much just vanilla textures.

 

This is proof that there's indeed a bias.

[Spladam]

16 minutes ago, Mordeth said:

New pet theory: Sigil wouldn't catch so much criticism if it hadn't been Romero who made it...

Hahah, this is of course true, but in the sense that anything that garners this much attention and awareness will be subject to such, and equally true with regards to the adulation it received do to it's ubiquity. Did folks hold SIGIL to a higher standard because it was Romero creating it? Well yeah. 

 

Many of the more well known creations from the community over the years had to endure the criticisms (as I'm sure you well know), but without the side effect of financial profits Mr. Romero benefited from with SIGIL's release.

 

Off topic side note, I loved this youtube comment from the SIGIL trailer:

"the doom community has been putting out a metric ton of new quality levels every year for the last quarter century & it pisses me off that 1. John Romero thinks he can just get some cash out of a short vanilla campaign and 2. he's absolutely right here's my money"  :)

[Super Mighty G]

10 hours ago, eulo said:

Sigil has

- eye switches

- pictured doors for ending

- catwalks

- important secrets that are quintessential to your progression

- glowing cracks on floor and ceiling

- crusher maze

- Minotaur maze

- teleports that throw you back to previously visited areas with more enemies

- large cages

- sinister town with infested buildings

and other minor things like that interesting lost soul start in M8, or the secret area in M1

 

And all of this in a 9 map episode. Good luck picking your favourite wad has this many of memorable and/or innovative stuff. You probably have to go back to Plutonia to see such innovative design.

 

Going Down exists. And Romero didn't pioneer any of those things except maybe the eye switches, which literally anyone could have thought up.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Super Mighty G

[ketmar]

11 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

And Romero didn't pioneer any of those things except maybe the eye switches, which literally anyone could have thought up.

somehow i used to read the same claims each time somebody did something that wasn't done before. "eh, nothing special, anyone could thought it up!" i always have one small question here: and why nobody did it before then?

[Super Mighty G]

20 minutes ago, ketmar said:

somehow i used to read the same claims each time somebody did something that wasn't done before. "eh, nothing special, anyone could thought it up!" i always have one small question here: and why nobody did it before then?

Because no one happened to think of it? Surely you aren't suggesting Romero is the only person in the entire world that could come up with using an eye decoration as a switch?

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

First and foremost, I think Sigil is excellent, exactly my type of gameplay, but besides the eye switches it's not really innovative in the slightest.

The rest of the points have been discussed already, but I feel this one didn't get enough attention. The Cyberdemon is an enemy which has been terror inducing ever since Doom was released. A maze is the bane of most players, especially constructed to be confusing to navigate and is especially cumbersome if monsters are hunting you down while you try to find the way through. I feel mappers probably have tried to combine these two elements in some way before Sigil, and off the top of my head I got two examples:

• MAP08: Tomb of Malevolence from No Rest for the Living, containing a short but nerve-racking (pun not intended) Cyberdemon maze. Sure, if you press all the switches in the area it's not really a maze, but on your first play you're likely to not even realize they're there in the first place!
• MAP27: Cyberpunk from Hell Revealed, probably the most known Cyberdemon maze, in this level you first meet 6 inactive Cyberdemons (!), after pressing a switch they get alerted to your presence and teleport to a maze which you'll traverse later on. Very adrenaline pumping stuff!

Doom 64's Cat and Mouse is the stand out example in my mind. 

[Linguica]

This is getting tiresome. No one cares that you dislike Sigil and saying that it does literally nothing good is absurd.

[Super Mighty G]

Agreed. I never addressed the thread question.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 11:52 PM, eulo said:

How NRFTL or Sigil would be treated without the "official" and "John Romero" tags?

 

They would be treated the same as any other episode set. Those associations carry weight regardless of anything else. 

[Rathori]

I don't know if SIGIL being made by Romero made me feel any different about it, but I do know that: a) it surpassed my expectations, because I wasn't particularly impressed by pre-release screenshots and/or videos (sorry, John), and b) I probably would have missed it if it wasn't surrounded by all the hype. I also know that I've played through it about three times - continuous with saves in GZDoom and PrBoom, and proper saveless pistol starts of every level, and enjoyed every minute of it. Except, at first, for the first crusher, which I eventually figured out and now can reliably survive.

 

NRFTL, though, was my first exposure to the modern, more detailed level visuals, and I really enjoyed the layout and the feeling of the levels - enough to take time to find 100% secrets in all levels all by myself. It being "official", however, only made me sceptical about it, because I've also played the vomit-inducing Xbox-exclusive levels not too long before playing NRFTL itself. Perhaps it's time to give it another go, now that I've experienced a couple of dozens of proper community WADs that I can compare it against :P

Edited July 30, 2019 by Rathori

[ketmar]

and, by the way. i absolutely don't care if some author invented some new gimmick for the map or not. the only thing i care is "is it fun to play?" i may don't like Doom Hell visuals, but Si6gil is fun to play. now, remove eye switches from it, for example. did it suddenly lost all the fun? i guess we know the answer.

[cybdmn]

Sigil is a good wad, presenting good visuals and a lot of fun, and some not so fun things on the other hand. Some praise it more than it's worth because of being a Romero wad, others turn it down because of being a Romero wad. Would it be as famous and praised if done by another author? Certainly not, but still its fun to play.

 

NRFTL for me is another thing. This adds the maps to Doom II it deserves. And in my opinion NRFTL deserved definitely the cacoward.

 

I wish, id Software would had hired those two guys to create a new classic 32 map Doom game for releasing in "the year of Doom".

[The Maverick013]

So, nobody is going to speak about Redemption of the Slain? I just found about it thanks to this thread and it seems to be the direct opposite of Sigil: a map made by a pro, trying to be the least vanilla possible, that is not very famous.

[Deadwing]

It would be treated differently, definitely, but whatever, I've enjoyed the playthrough and I agree that it's a very memmorable wad. Although I've some criticisms for it myself, the wad provided me a better and more consistent experience than most pwads, using bold design decisions with consistent visuals. (it's a lot more detailed than most of my maps)

 

E1M8b was also awesome, E1M4b I didn't enjoy too much, though, felt way too experimental, it was very linear and it didn't feel like you were in a UAC techbase, although the setpieces were pretty good.

[kb1]

On 7/29/2019 at 9:46 PM, Spectre01 said:

Which games has Romero made in the last 20+ years since Quake 1 that actually "rock"?

20+? All of them.

 

Oh, since Quake 1? My statement didn't chop his career in half. Go play them and find out - we're talking about opinions here, anyway.

 

Though, I strongly suspect that many of the responses in the thread have nothing to do with gameplay, or fun.

Edited July 31, 2019 by kb1

[Ferk]

On the subject of Daikatana, it was a very good idea of a game (and it's not a bad game) but the execution didn't live up to the potential it could have had and there were problems managing expectations.

Romero initially thought he could make a game in 7 months and ended up taking 3 years, he forgot his team was not very experienced. I feel he's a very good game designer but not so when it comes to management and understanding his own limits.

 

I think retro style games with innovative mechanics would fit him much better than trying to make something technologically ground breaking, be it graphics or AI. That's something Carmack was the best at. The times that they did team up and aligned their creative visions, the result was glorious.

[eulo]

14 hours ago, The Maverick013 said:

So, nobody is going to speak about Redemption of the Slain? I just found about it thanks to this thread and it seems to be the direct opposite of Sigil: a map made by a pro, trying to be the least vanilla possible, that is not very famous.

 

Yet, despite the map's modern approach, it looks incredibly polished and pro. Played it 3 times, and know most locations by heart. I think the sense of place is what separates most good wads from bad ones. I hope the maps non-BD version fix will come out one day.

[eulo]

13 hours ago, Deadwing said:

It would be treated differently, definitely, but whatever, I've enjoyed the playthrough and I agree that it's a very memmorable wad. Although I've some criticisms for it myself, the wad provided me a better and more consistent experience than most pwads, using bold design decisions with consistent visuals. (it's a lot more detailed than most of my maps)

 

E1M8b was also awesome, E1M4b I didn't enjoy too much, though, felt way too experimental, it was very linear and it didn't feel like you were in a UAC techbase, although the setpieces were pretty good.

 

I love E1M4. Another nice innovative element, the numbered switches. I mean, it just makes you feel there is an actual progression in the switch hunting instead of being a chore. And that compmaze with the rising catwalk is just a preview of Sigil, except in techbase style.

[Deadwing]

55 minutes ago, eulo said:

 

I love E1M4. Another nice innovative element, the numbered switches. I mean, it just makes you feel there is an actual progression in the switch hunting instead of being a chore. And that compmaze with the rising catwalk is just a preview of Sigil, except in techbase style.

 

It was okay, too gimmicky for my tastes