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DooM_RO

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1 hour ago, thewormofautumn said:

In the Q&A, Hugo's answer regarding not messing with the source material and referencing Star Wars is a crock of shit.

Not saying what he says is incorrect at a high level, but DOOM 2016 is, story wise, super different from the original DOOMs. That guy was a Marine. A normal human being. Just a grunt, that took down Hell.

This one is a Slayer with backstory in a fantasy inspired world.

 

He was discussing the gameplay of the original games in that part, not story. Granted, he made a bit of an awkward analogy by then transitioning to the subject of the Star Wars canon to illustrate the point, but he wasn't talking about Doom's story aspect.

 

I think the back and forth between @DooM_RO and @Shaviro illustrates again how the Doom classics really meant different things to different people, and imprinted different memories on them. They *were* a power fantasy yes, but they also were games that made you feel intimidated at times by your enemies, and like you were being hunted. It's a good illustration of just how different the fans can feel about source material and how some fans can feel like future installments stray too far away from the originals, whereas other fans feel it's spot on. Hell, if you want a great example of that, look no further than Doom 3 and Doom 2016---both of them contain elements from the originals and show just how different a reimagining can be, depending on what elements the creators choose to focus on and emphasize.

 

My personal feeling is that I would like if some of the designs of Eternal were a little less like their classic counterparts, but I'm also glad they're introducing a ton of new enemy types and environments that we've never seen before. It could open up a whole new avenue of possibilities in the future Doom universe.

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2 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

He was discussing the gameplay of the original games in that part, not story. 

 

Makes sense. Very ham-fisted IMO, but I can see your point.

You could argue though, that the original's lack of story (yeah it had one, but it was barely there) was what drove the gameplay.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Caffeine Freak said:

I think the back and forth between @DooM_RO and @Shaviro illustrates again how the Doom classics really meant different things to different people, and imprinted different memories on them. They *were* a power fantasy yes, but they also were games that made you feel intimidated at times by your enemies, and like you were being hunted.

 

I certainly got that on Ultra Nightmare. And yes, it is something I have asked for. Game needs more variety but the essence of it is rock solid.

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this was fun but also somber.

 

Tim Willits has left the building (technically doing some silly stuff at this quakecon but he is done and gone).  The team is overworked.  Hugo and Marty are exhausted.  And they have a fear that Eternal will not be as liked as 2016 (imo).  But to me, these are all good signs of us getting a quality product with some pretty solid risks.

 

Battlemode looks very cool imo, and whatever resource management the single player might lack... Battlemode is going to have it in spades methinks.

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At which minute do they talk about Doom Hunter? Is there any new SP footage in it?

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15 minutes ago, igg said:

At which minute do they talk about Doom Hunter? Is there any new SP footage in it?

Early in the Doom part of the keynote, they show a clip of the Doomhunter and a montage of gameplay.

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6 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

so... the doomhunter is an enemy or a boss?

Looks like a recurring character. 

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Feels like every one of these threads inevitably devolves into some kind of argument about how the devs commited sacrilege against the holy artifact known as Doom.

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No way i am watching a two hour thing, kinda dissapointed at how very little footage there is.
I could literally not care less about multiplayer online, is not why i play videogames at all and it does not look appealing anyway, and it was the most shown thing, wtf.
The hud still looks ugly, and now it looks too colorful, they went the exact same opposite of what they did before in D16.
What little we have seen of the game so far looks ok, not crazy for it.

 

14 minutes ago, Doom64hunter said:

Feels like every one of these threads inevitably devolves into some kind of argument about how the devs commited sacrilege against the holy artifact known as Doom.

Well, that is what forums usually do, they upload stuff about a new game and we discuss it, lol, and to be fair neither this one or D16 feel much like "Doom" to me, but more like fan games inspired slightly by it.

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1 hour ago, TheRedTide said:

I'm not fan of the Doom Hunter's design, looks like a robotic torso on a bathtub.

I like it, personally. It's a nice callback to DOOM 3's Sabaoth and it definitely seems like the kind of thing a mad scientist would make.

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The attacks from the Doomhunter are kind of how i imagined he'd play.

I just hope he has other moves that truly make him a recurring miniboss because i really like his design.

 

I also hate how they've handled the new Doom ports, that they make the BFG edition look good in comparison.

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Props for Hugo for saying Doom 64 is the best of the classic Doom games.

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15 hours ago, Shaviro said:

It seems to me id software of 2019 is more afraid of the fans than anything. He even said it himself; He wouldn't want to "ruin someone's childhood" by having a different take on something and it shows. Just take a look at what happened going from Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal. Lots of design decisions revoked with the sole purpose of "pleasing the fans". Reverting the Mancubus, the Plasma Rifle, the Cyberdemon. It's not that I *don't* think these Doom2 versions of the designs are better, I do, but it's also kinda disingenuous and fan-servicey.

 

One of the amazing things to do back in 2000-2004 was to see how they reimagined this monster or that weapon in Doom3. I don't really care about that for Doom Eternal because it's all pretty damn predictable. Go with the power fantasy head canon and scour forums to figure out what "fans want".

 

Yup. The new id is all about listening to the vocal portion of the fanbase and making whatever they know people will applaud. They keep embracing jokes and memes, whatever the community does on social media, they reference. After DOOM4 I said that they will make the next one even more ridiculous because silliness is what people cheer on and that's exactly what they did. People like the idea of new DOOM games being sequels to DOOM64 and the Slayer being the original Doomguy so you can be 100% sure that's what they're gonna make canon in Eternal. We're not gonna see anything daring from this company anymore. The gameplay might be good but the overall vision seems to be more and more empty and predictable.

 

Much like everyone else I'll still buy Eternal day one, no doubt about that. But the further we go the more I wish to see another "DOOM3" DOOM game. Not necessarily a slow horror-focused version. Just something that would make me curious and intrigued. Something that would surprise me. Not another fan-service nostalgia pandering fest.

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3 hours ago, Touchdown said:

 

Yup. The new id is all about listening to the vocal portion of the fanbase and making whatever they know people will applaud. They keep embracing jokes and memes, whatever the community does on social media, they reference. After DOOM4 I said that they will make the next one even more ridiculous because silliness is what people cheer on and that's exactly what they did. People like the idea of new DOOM games being sequels to DOOM64 and the Slayer being the original Doomguy so you can be 100% sure that's what they're gonna make canon in Eternal. We're not gonna see anything daring from this company anymore. The gameplay might be good but the overall vision seems to be more and more empty and predictable.

 

Much like everyone else I'll still buy Eternal day one, no doubt about that. But the further we go the more I wish to see another "DOOM3" DOOM game. Not necessarily a slow horror-focused version. Just something that would make me curious and intrigued. Something that would surprise me. Not another fan-service nostalgia pandering fest.

1) What exactly is ridiculous or silly in Doom 2016 in your opinion? How did you come to the conclusion that silliness is what people cheer on (I rarely visit Doom related places outside of Doomworld so I might be missing something)?
2) How exactly is what they are doing with Eternal not daring? Should they not conform to mainstream FPS and not deliver what their fans want either, in other words should they make something that potentially nobody likes? Should they just waste their resources on mindless experiments in order for them to be daring?
3) How is Doom 3 less predictable and more intriguing than 2016/Eternal in terms of story/lore?

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Posted (edited)

that looks like the "angel" guy from the "heaven".But its in hell...doesnt really look beein hell dovoured(Wraith)...but then again this must be statue...a bit broken thou

 

113235561_ScreenShot2019-07-27at21_55_52.png.7f111fac487e35b4cab49582c596d7ca.png

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1 hour ago, blackgoblinmagic said:

that looks like the "angel" guy from the "heaven".But its in hell...doesnt really look beein hell dovoured(Wraith)...but then again this must be statue...a bit broken thou

I still think the Angel from the mural is a fallen one thus it's not surprising he has a statue in Hell.

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It's actually interesting to think about how Doom even changed art directions and identity in the first place, which i guess can also feed into everyone having different ideas of what Doom is. (even with source ports, ports they first played on, pop culture memes and mandella effect in mind)

 

Also, because some of these elements are iconics and they changed the series a lot to the point some new stuff also became iconic, but others felt like it gave the series an identity crysis or just wasn't that memorable.

 

Something interesting about Doom is that at least before 3, the series never had a "universe".

It was mostly gameplay (which in some ways can be seen as simple), 2.5D/3D environments and sprites, little to no plot and the modding scene being what expands on the series.

 

I feel like some people like later games for the elements and ideas they add to the series but at the same time don't see it ever replacing the original Doom. (be it modding, gaming legacy or its identity and quality even)

You look at other franchises that get reboots and they already have much more sophisticated universes and their reboots were either god awful or had nothing interesting to offer, so they're forgettable.

 

It's probably why gameplay mods (like MetaDoom), out of genre fangames (like MiniDoom 2) or even crossover potential (like the idea of Doomguy being in Smash) can be interesting.

You get to see what the series has in terms of ideas and stuff while also seeing how each iteration has something to it and everyone will have personal preferences over even minor stuff like the screen liquify transition from the originals.

 

And for what reasons would they bring back the older designs, said designs still look different enough so they're just more recognizable as Doom (but not all of them "play" like the originals) while having some "spins" on it, like how the Manc has a different face and all.

Some of the older design ideas can be helpfull to the concept of Doom lore too like different blood colors or a Hell that isn't just rocks and trees.

 

Besides, there's still a lot of actual NEW stuff in Eternal, like the SSG grapple hook and shoudler gun.

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19 hours ago, Hofmann said:

1) What exactly is ridiculous or silly in Doom 2016 in your opinion? How did you come to the conclusion that silliness is what people cheer on (I rarely visit Doom related places outside of Doomworld so I might be missing something)?
2) How exactly is what they are doing with Eternal not daring? Should they not conform to mainstream FPS and not deliver what their fans want either, in other words should they make something that potentially nobody likes? Should they just waste their resources on mindless experiments in order for them to be daring?
3) How is Doom 3 less predictable and more intriguing than 2016/Eternal in terms of story/lore?

 

I didn't say DOOM4 was silly but it did kind of dance on the line in several places, tapping into the comic book style that's now totally embraced in Eternal. They were testing the public reaction to this and now they know people will cheer on all the ridiculousness - things that used to be jokes (rip and tear) are now official and endorsed. All of the dumb executions (I like most of them but some are just stupid as hell) or cutscenes (like the railgun scene from Eternal) or that retarded Pain Elemental walk that makes me cringe are things that get all the applause. People post nothing but rip&tear and doot all the time, everywhere. So yes, people cheer on silliness and id embraces it all.

 

With DOOM3 vs Eternal I was mostly refering to what Shaviro said about weapons and monsters - nostalgia pandering and fan service. It was way more interesting to see those controversial redesigns in D3. Not all of them were great but I'd much rather take something subpar but surprising over recreations of 25 year old sprites because that to me is just lazy. But I know I'm in the minority - as demostrated by every fanbase ever people generally do not like changes and anything that will take them back to their youth will get their approval. I'd be more interested in seeing something new.

 

And again, I'm not necessarily talking about gameplay here but the general presentation and art direction. I never said DOOM should play like a mainstream shooter. But it's not exactly daring to just grab the low-hanging fruit and make everything look and feel exactly in the way that will get the most reposts. It's not exactly daring to turn Doomguy into "an angry 14 year old" (quoting Hugo Martin here) just because that's how people see him now because of memes and Brutal Doom.

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30 minutes ago, Touchdown said:

 

I didn't say DOOM4 was silly but it did kind of dance on the line in several places, tapping into the comic book style that's now totally embraced in Eternal. They were testing the public reaction to this and now they know people will cheer on all the ridiculousness - things that used to be jokes (rip and tear) are now official and endorsed. All of the dumb executions (I like most of them but some are just stupid as hell) or cutscenes (like the railgun scene from Eternal) or that retarded Pain Elemental walk that makes me cringe are things that get all the applause. People post nothing but rip&tear and doot all the time, everywhere. So yes, people cheer on silliness and id embraces it all.

 

I get what you're saying but that seems to come from the Brutal Doom/Reddit crowd (ugh). Discussions around here are totally different. I think those things work because Doom is a celebration of FUN and high energy.

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The power fantasy aspect of the Slayer is clearly based off memes and it gets tiring hearing the same Chuck Norries jokes, which is why i'm glad the game is harder and brings back Doomguy's pain noises.

A strong hero needs challenges to overcame and the idea of even someone as OP as the Doom Slayer being Doomed can make him more interesting.

 

Another problem with adding memes in the series is when they're these sort of entry tier jokes everyone including their grandma knows off.

I'm already sick of the Doot meme, where's NEDM for example?

I guess they just don't want to alienate the newer/more casual fans.

 

One thing that does bother me is when id or Bethesda do anything to do with throwbacks or history and screw it up, in a way that says:

"Did they lie about something or just didn't do proper research?"

 

Like, when they say some piece of trivia in Slayer's Club about a model of the Spider Mastermind being the same as the original, even though it's a replacement rather

 

Or when Tim Willits accidently refered to the Archvile as "the Revenant from the original Doom".

Or when a tweet posted a screenshot of NRFTL while it was written about Doom ONE's anniversary.

Or like the trailer for the new ports switching Doom 1 and 2 footage when dropping the games' titles and awkwardly putting an SSG sound over E2M1 shotgun footage.

Or apparently using a slightly edited Spriters Resource Revenant in an image comparing two versions of the enemy.

 

These are just some examples, possibly coming from lazyness and poor fact checking and research.

 

Whether or not it's intentional can remind us when they lied about the creation of FPS at this year's E3 and how most people already think Bethesda created Fallout.

 

Anyway, i think the idea of Doomguy being stronger at least fits the gameplay.

And i do kind of enjoy the "gamey" direction of the series because, looking at Doom era FPS, some felt like they had something in common with games from other genres because they have ideas that generally make a game interesting.

 

Compared to the COD type of shooter that tried to be more "realistic" and simpler in gameplay, as if it was made for someone ashamed of liking video games.

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16 hours ago, Touchdown said:

 

I didn't say DOOM4 was silly but it did kind of dance on the line in several places, tapping into the comic book style that's now totally embraced in Eternal. They were testing the public reaction to this and now they know people will cheer on all the ridiculousness - things that used to be jokes (rip and tear) are now official and endorsed. All of the dumb executions (I like most of them but some are just stupid as hell) or cutscenes (like the railgun scene from Eternal) or that retarded Pain Elemental walk that makes me cringe are things that get all the applause. People post nothing but rip&tear and doot all the time, everywhere. So yes, people cheer on silliness and id embraces it all.

 

Honestly though, why *shouldn't* Doom be silly? After all, one of the original inspirations was Evil Dead. Save for Doom 3, there's always been a strong element of silliness in the game. It has a screaming skeleton that shoots rockets at you and makes a *squit* sound when it falls over and dies. It has a giant one-eyed red floating monster who makes a stupid whimpering noise when it dies while it's insides spill out of it's front. There's an even sillier looking floating brown monster with stubby little arms who makes noises like a cat with a throat infection. There's a morbidly obese creature who has giant fat folds and mumbles complete gibberish the entire time. There's a picture in the end credits of the protagonist carrying his pet rabbit's severed head, for fuck's sake. Doom has seldom been a totally serious game, and when it tried to be, it divided the fanbase.

 

On 7/27/2019 at 4:52 AM, Touchdown said:

 

We're not gonna see anything daring from this company anymore. 

 

Dude, they *just* released a sequel to an eight year old game (Rage) that got a very lackluster reception when it originally came out, that pretty much *nobody* asked for a sequel to. That isn't exactly 'risk-averse'. 

 

Even if I agreed with this cynical assessment of the current state of id (I don't), my next question would be: can I blame them for taking this approach? Doom 2016 was a calculated risk, and one of the first id have done in a *long* time that has really paid off well. Basically every other major project they've released in the last ten years has had a less than enthusiastic reception. Quake Champions has mostly gone under the radar. Rage was decently well received by critics, but got absolutely dragged across the concrete by gamers for a variety of technical and design issues. Rage 2 has gotten a pretty meh reception, both by gamers and critics alike. With all that in mind, why would anyone blame them for pushing forward with an approach that has yielded positive results?

 

All I'm saying is that it's a lot easier to criticize a developer not taking big risks when it isn't your $20-30 million that's riding the line towards that risk.

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And the other inspiration was Aliens.

 

I've said it in the past that while I wouldn't be at all opposed to an all serious DOOM game I'm not saying there shouldn't be an element of humour in it. However there's a difference between a violent game with some dark humour and a comic book with blatant Looney Tunes scenes like the Doomguy launching himself with a giant railgun into a bulding because badassery. There's got to be some balance there. Not entirely serious does not mean completely whacky.

 

There's also something to be said about the fact that the original games, especially DOOM1, had a lot of levels with a much darker atmosphere and music. That element is pretty much entirely gone from DOOM4 and sure as hell we won't see anything like it in Eternal. People like to focus on the silly aspects and completely ignore the horror element of the franchise because that's not cool anymore. Now everything has to be over the top and crrrazy.

 

I think there was a talk about sprites at some point. Basically I've always been on the side saying that the cartoony sprites were a thing mainly because realistic monsters wouldn't work with the original technology and resolution. But DOOM was not made to be an entirely whacky comic book. It had diminishing lighting which was making the game "automatically scary", it removed points and lives because it was "too arcade'y". It was supposed to be more realistic than previous id games and at the time it WAS the most realistic game. It's easy to say 25 years later that monsters were cartoony but the perception was a bit different back then. And clearly, even though people like to dismiss DOOM3 as a mistake, it was a direction that id was dedicated to.

 

But all of that might also have to do with the fact that I've never ever considered DOOM to be a joke and the more serious D3 take always felt more "DOOM" to me than the comic book DOOM4/Eternal style. Back in the day there was a stylistic distinction between DOOM and let's say Blood or Rise of the Triad. But now it's all mixed up in people's minds.

 

If you want to know my more detailed take on that subject you might want to check out this thread where I talk about all of those things.

 

...

 

I'm not blaming them for going where the praise and money is. However my opinion is that the gameplay side of things is so well-crafted in DOOM4 (and I assume the same will be true for Eternal) that it could stand on its own without id going completely out of their way to make everything have as much nostalgia factor as possible. As someone who's been a fan of DOOM since playing the shareware as a kid I'm more interested in seeing things I haven't seen before or at least versions of those things that will surprise me. The new id will gladly recreate a 25 year old sprite with a smile to get the applause but I'd be more interested in more creative takes on those classic assets.

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On 7/26/2019 at 5:18 PM, blackgoblinmagic said:

No but seriously...is that Betruger?

 

The voice actor for Betruger is dead so that seems unlikely. It would also make no sense to bring him over except maybe as an easteregg.

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Posted (edited)

Going back to the topic of Doom's different iterations, i wonder if it could be a good idea for id to explore cut content and unused ideas/concepts.

I recall there being an Arachnotron/Spider Mastermind for Doom 3 with a skull (and also 6 legs) and wondered if that could work as a type of Arachnotron, since the skull could fit how some demons have skulls placed in certain spots in their designs.

 

Also, i've seen complaints about the player's speed but i guess i wouldn't mind it as long as they fit the gameplay and design of the game.

Spoiler

And i feel like some people seem to forget that Doomguy in the classic games has a slow default walking speed and ALWAYS RUN was possible but through some easy exploit in the game's configurations or something, i forgot.

 

I just feel like this could be brought up, like the game being made with mouse in mind.

 

Edit: Speaking of speed, i do hope Haste and speed based upgrades/runes return.

Edited by whatup876 : more stuff

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