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DooM_RO

You should DIE if you fall off the world.

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So I was watching the new demo was was quite baffled that you don't die if you fall off the world. It's almost like they are not confident in the new world puzzles. 

 

If you make a mistake you need to feel it.

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Hmm... well from my experience from Doom 2016 majority of my deaths came from falling and much of it was due to exploration and secret hunting.

 

I am concerned it can be used as a exploit to escape dangerous situations if there are no consequences. If possible I rather it kill the player only while in combat.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Chezza said:

Hmm... well from my experience from Doom 2016 majority of my deaths came from falling and much of it was due to exploration and secret hunting.

 

I am concerned it can be used as a exploit to escape dangerous situations if there are no consequences. If possible I rather it kill the player only while in combat.

 

Those players should just get better at the game. Why should I get better at traversing the game if I don't get punished for dying? If I am not forced get better I am not challenged and if I am not challenged I get bored. They even admitted it.

 

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense. 

 

The more I think about it the more it pisses me off. It really seems like they are contradicting themselves on certain issues. First they say they want more meaningful pickups but then they give me 60 health from a GK, and 50 armor from flaming a bunch of weak zombies, more than an armor pickup. Then they tell me they want me to be challenged but don't punish you for falling in a cliff. It's like they are not confident in their platforming which is NOT GOOD!

 

It seems like they are overthinking these problems which can often lead to contradicting yourself.

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Posted (edited)

hmm I'm actually cool with this change, in terms of no load times - but it should totally take a 1up from you. Especially considering how the demo-level at qcon u could get upto like 5 or 6 levelups

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I reckon they should make Nightmare and Ultra Nightmare punish you for falling off at least.

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Posted (edited)

In Shadow Warrior 2 you also get teleported back upon falling into the abyss but there are some penalties: all enemies regain their health and you lose all of your Fury (a resource that allows you to enter an overpowered mode when it's filled up). There should definitely be consequences to make people not want to fall down, otherwise they'll exploit it to get out of tough situations.

 

I also wouldn't be opposed to an idea of a Hardcore mode that would kill you upon falling and not give you any 1ups.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sleepiii said:

hmm I'm actually cool with this change, in terms of no load times

 

I think the reason behind this decision is that platforming is actually challenging and it is expected of you to fall frequently (I think I heard there will be a lot of falling). I think what they were not confident in is if players would be able to solve the platforming in a few enough number of attempts so they don't get bored from all the loading screens which would be present otherwise.

 

2 hours ago, sleepiii said:

but it should totally take a 1up from you. Especially considering how the demo-level at qcon u could get upto like 5 or 6 levelups

 

1 hour ago, Edib said:

I reckon they should make Nightmare and Ultra Nightmare punish you for falling off at least.

 

Definitely. I expect falling on higher difficulties to take a 1up. I imagine average skilled players falling frequently and losing all their 1ups and not having any left when they really need it in combat which would, in addition to loading screens, probably piss them off even more.

 

2 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

 Then they tell me they want me to be challenged but don't punish you for falling in a cliff. It's like they are not confident in their platforming which is NOT GOOD!

 

I think it is not the quality of platforming what they are not confident in, but rather if we are skilled enough to solve it without pissing us off.

Edited by Hofmann

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sleepiii said:

hmm I'm actually cool with this change, in terms of no load times - but it should totally take a 1up from you. Especially considering how the demo-level at qcon u could get upto like 5 or 6 levelups

 

Yeah so I am not saying that they are not confident but this is what I am getting from what I see. So it seems they are not confident in the level design and not confident in the skills of the player, especially with all those one ups. Why should I believe them that the game is harder if they won't trust me to do some platforming? It should be like in Mario. You FALL you DIE. End of story. 

 

Considering that they had like 5-6 1UPs at at time it is quite baffling that they won't at least take those. There's too many of them and too easy to get anyway.

 

Or keep it the way it is on the lowest difficulty. And remove 1UPs on higher difficulties because there's just too many. Please, have a bit of confidence!

Edited by DooM_RO

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They got the platforming right in Doom 2016. I'm sure it was quite a challenge, especially in Argent Tower but I didn't think for a second that it was bad or clunky. When I died it was my fault.

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When you die in this game it'll still be your fault, just saying.

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Imagine: You're a new player to Doom Eternal. You've got a min-spec PC so loading in takes a long time. A platforming segment crops up. You haven't found any 1-ups yet. You make a small slip-up and fall off the map. You now have to wait five minutes until you can try it again.

A while later and you get good enough at the game. You've run out of one-ups, though, because of a particularly challenging platforming segment prior. You get locked into a combat arena and move a little too close to a Mancubus, or stand still for too long while a Prowler is active, or you keep an Arachnotron's gun active for too long, or you rocket a Carcass shield, etc etc. If you had a one-up, that'd be fine, but the platforming segment robbed it all off of you, and now at this point, since you have to load in for ages before you can try again, you're now mad at the game and are probably writing an angry Twitter post, negative Steam review, condescending forum thread, whatever your chosen method of catharsis is.

 

Remember: whether it's platforming or combat, the devs expect you to die. 1-ups and the quick spawn are there to make these deaths less demoralising and to make sure you're out of the action for a shorter amount of time.

 

More on the 1-up topic:

I don't see why falling off the map should consume a 1-up. Granted, they've changed how 1-ups work since the Stadia clip and you don't start where you were originally when you died like you did before, so they could, but 1-ups are meant to assist combat, so stripping them away when not in combat seems a bit cruel.

I believe the demo purposefully added more 1-ups than the base game to give the players at E3/QCon (who haven't played the game, obviously, and may not have played 2016) a chance and to make up for any you may have saved from the previous level. For example, id have repeatedly stated that 1-ups are primarily to award exploration, so you're not always going to have them. If you can play to the end of the game on the hardest difficulty you can manage and you have 60 one-ups by the final boss that's incredibly bad game design.

Either that, or Hugo was playing the demo at a way lower difficulty than he's capable of, and his 'comfortable' difficulty would have been quite taxing on 1-ups. As the devs and plenty of people with hands-on have said, you die a lot. Remember, in 2016 an imp fireball would deal upwards of 60 damage on Nightmare. And since everyone I've seen play the game claims it's actually harder, imagine that but more.

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Posted (edited)

As someone who got to play the demo. Apart from dying a couple of times in the final arena, all my deaths prior to that were from the platforming sections. This is coming from someone who actually enjoys platforming sections in FPS games.

 

Perhaps on harder difficulties, you could respawn at the last checkpoint instead of the last platform you jumped from.

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16 minutes ago, deuce said:

As someone who got to play the demo. Apart from dying a couple of times in the final arena, all my deaths prior to that were from the platforming sections. This is coming from someone who actually enjoys platforming sections in FPS games.

 

Perhaps on harder difficulties, you could respawn at the last checkpoint instead of the last platform you jumped from.

 

But they said you wouldn't die if you fall.

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1 minute ago, DooM_RO said:

 

But they said you wouldn't die if you fall.

 

Just substitute "death" with "failure"?

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In Sekiro, one of the the more hardcore games I've played (i.e. generally unforgiving), if you fall into the abyss, you are returned to the nearest ground you fell from with a 33% loss of health. That seems reasonable to me. 

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Posted (edited)

Unless they’ve said in an interview that you won’t die from falling in the final game, I think it was just for the demo. You get thirty minutes to play it and the level is pretty big, so it would be super frustrating if you spent your whole time loading checkpoints after falling. I only fell once, so it’s not that the platforming is unstable. I just think the Slayer should auto grapple the wall every time and not have to press the melee button.

 

There’s also a tutorial at the beginning of the demo to get you up to speed quickly, which I doubt will be in the final version. 

Edited by bj25x

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It is a convenient change that will do nothing but improve the experience of the game, they could do what DMC: Devil May Cry did and add small amounts of damage to the player every time they fall and respawn, instant death would just be not fun and cause unnecessary frustration and nobody sane wants that.

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11 hours ago, DooM_RO said:

So I was watching the new demo was was quite baffled that you don't die if you fall off the world. It's almost like they are not confident in the new world puzzles. 

 

If you make a mistake you need to feel it.

What are you talking about? You do die, then you're revived by the game at nearest platform you stood on before dying.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, sleepiii said:

hmm I'm actually cool with this change, in terms of no load times - but it should totally take a 1up from you. Especially considering how the demo-level at qcon u could get upto like 5 or 6 levelups

 

Yep, this sounds like a pretty good implementation to me. You keep the benefit of quick spawn which negates having to watch a reload screen when you fail a navigation puzzle but you still get punished for it (which you should). The current implementation has no consequences and can be gamed.

 

I like Job's suggestion as well; stripping a fixed percentage of health for falling.

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Posted (edited)

I seemingly agree with nigh everything RO says.

 

i was playing some voidmap from mapjamx (aqueduct?) and had the same feeling.  Falling off should be death.  You get extra lives and deathpits exist in old school sidescrollers.  I hear the "dont want to reload all the map data" for 5 minutes camp.  But I feel like it breaks the immersion when you get teleported back to the surface.

 

But the more I thought about it, in classical DOOM, there are always teleporters in lavapits.  So I guess I can see it going the other way as well.  But I never much cared for teleporters in lavapits.

 

To me, the fact that you can avoid a fight by jumping off a ledge is not cool.

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Posted (edited)

I was bouncing all over the space platforms on Mars Core in search of secrets and I fell many times.  I do not remember if you take damage from the falls but it can reset some of the encounters.  Death might be too severe but a total loss of armor and/or 50 hp penalty doesn't sound unreasonable.

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Martin deliberately went out of his way to explain this. Death in this instance is an unnecessary annoyance to the player, and I agree whole heartedly.

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What I don't understand is why they don't use damaging floors? They give an extra challenge whereby you have to navigate the shortest path out so the health taken is dependent on you improving your skill. If the dash/double-jump mechanic negates their use then make them have damaging fog too.

 

It's getting boring for every map to be surrounded by death pits, it worked for that one Arcane Dimensions map but it shouldn't be the default :/

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^ There is one problem with that, some levels take place in floating islands, so it would look weird if the player could walk In air and still receive damage slowly.

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Posted (edited)

There would still need to be a drop below the main play area so that the player needs to find a teleporter and can't just double-jump their way to shore. It makes more sense to me than insta-teleporting out of an unsurvivable abyss. And provides more replay value by varying the damage sustained.

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6 hours ago, Space Marinara said:

What I don't understand is why they don't use damaging floors?

But they kinda are?

In the one asteroid-hopping level, almost every platform has one of those pillars that rises out from the ground and shocks the ground for a few seconds. I imagine that getting hit by those then falling into the abyss would give irreversible damage.

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All these suggestions are super weird. What if you got teleported back or got the health debuff in Mario? It would be so weird.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ramiel said:

In the one asteroid-hopping level, almost every platform has one of those pillars that rises out from the ground and shocks the ground for a few seconds. I imagine that getting hit by those then falling into the abyss would give irreversible damage.

 

Hm, if that's the case then it's pretty reasonable not to have death falls. You take damage from those, good luck afterwards.

 

I do agree that there should be some sort of penalty for failing, like some health/armor taken away from the player, or 1UPs if they have any, but not instant death. If you fail too much you're just going to spend more time staring at loading screens than playing.

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Actually come to think of it I was already abusing general and falling deaths for farming weapon unlocks in 2016 for my 100% ocd. I didn't feel like I was breaking the game but exploiting a little yes.

 

If you lose a 1up for falling that's a bigger consequence than 2016 ever had. There really wasn't much drawbacks to begin with beyond repeating a segment.

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