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HAK3180

I'm Also Looking to Play and Record Your Maps 2 -COVID HIATUS-

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Posted (edited)

Table of Contents

 

@Steve D

 

download the .wad

 

Well, something seems to have gone wrong in the map, as I got all items and all secrets, but only 88% kills because some monsters failed to teleport. I would guess they were supposed to come right at the end, since I hardly got to use the BFG. But what I played I mostly enjoyed. I thought the map was a little deceptive with the cells early. I was quite certain I had missed a secret plasma weapon until I got the final secret and still didn’t have one. The map has a nice variety of gameplay. The most memorable to me were the tight maze and the icon of sin area. As usual, the architecture and detailing were clean and polished. Occasionally, that seemed to entice Steve D into symmetric monster placement, which gave me a few advantages, sensing it.

 

Bottom line: an upscaled, linear tech base with varied gameplay

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@nicolas monti

 

I like this map. The layout is fascinating and clever. It creates a bit of frustration for slavelookers, but that never involves the main course. It’s a pretty linear progression that nevertheless has numerous little “aha!” moments. Combat is standard decent challenge with a couple of distinct encounters.

 

Bottom line: ugly but Montian

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@Zolgia108

 

Doomworld forum topic

 

Five separate linear paths to get to a sixth path. Due to chance, I ended up taking the finale of the first five last, so I might advise a little extra marking that that one is more significant, but this map may have some nice replay value for doing things in a different order. I thought the six different minilevels were well thought. They were all different with unique challenges.

 

Bottom line: A map of distinct short maps

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Hi, HAK3180 i have an interesting map for you to try out if you've got some time to spare.
This wad is under development, but I'd appreciate feedback .

Map01-Map03 (medium sized maps), tested on gzdoom 3.6.0 and zandronum 3.0
Designed to be completed without jumping or crouching
IWAD Plutonia
Encelad.pk3

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@HAK3180 i m really glad that you enjoyed the level, my brother hates platforming and he started the same as you so he was so freaking angry the whole time cause he died 5000 times there^^

the problem with this map is of course balancing each mini level, i tried to do my best but it's  probably easier for example if you get the ssg or the rocket launcher before getting to other areas. it was cool that you actually picked up the radiation suit and then you went to the area where there all darkness is damaging floor, so you could actually beat the mini level with no issues cause you didn't take damage ^^, i was asking myself "what the hell is going on why doeesnt he take dmg" then i realized. So yea it was cool to see a new combination. The gimmick is more in the secrets i guess hahaha, so you get one cracko and a useless item in each secret, and you also make the minilevel harder in a couple of cases. Well good job man, thanks for playing it, i love you as usual!

 

(next map will be total chaos)

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

@nicolas monti

 

I like this map. The layout is fascinating and clever. It creates a bit of frustration for slavelookers, but that never involves the main course. It’s a pretty linear progression that nevertheless has numerous little “aha!” moments. Combat is standard decent challenge with a couple of distinct encounters.

 

Bottom line: ugly but Montian

 

Thanks for playing!

I like that you beat this levels in less than 30 min because they are meant so. Something to shoot, relax and accomplish without being too complicated, long or tedious, it's fairly linear and with this one I went a step further in ugliness and abstractness. That softlock at the baron temple is fixed now.

 

This is the sixth map, very fresh so I hope nothing terrible happens with this one, if so just idclip but the progression is fairly straightforward.

 

E1M6: aerolineas argentinas

http://www.mediafire.com/file/udr6lgeepgvhpme/BACKTO06%282%29.wad/file

 

EDIT: link fixed now

Edited by nicolas monti

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

Well, something seems to have gone wrong in the map . . .

 

And I finally figured out what it was! But first, thank you for playing this bigass map, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I plan to change at least some of the monster symmetry to make things less predictable as a result of your comments.

 

As to what happened in the Big Fight That Wasn't, well, I didn't account for the synergy between the BFG's apparently large hitbox and Doomguy's long arms. The trap works perfectly so long as players do what I expect them to do, which is to step fully onto the BFG platform and grab the gun, thus triggering the teleport trap. Instead, you did What You're Not Supposed To Do, and moved forward just enough to snatch the BFG and then back away, and not only that, you jumped off the pinnacle, making it impossible to go back and walk over the trigger lines unless you intuited that you needed to teleport back up there and try to trigger it again. As for me, I would have thought that if the player actually rises when hitting the edge of the platform that the linedef would trigger, but obviously not, because when I tested it and did exactly what you did, I got the same result.

 

And this is why we playtest, and why it's always better to have more playtesters rather than a few, because only then are you likely to have people do the unexpected. I won't do it because I test to see if everything works as designed and as I expect people to play, but I have my style of play and other people have theirs, so I can't anticipate what everyone's going to do. As a result, I can't discover design flaws that others will. And I have to say that you seem to be a magnet for design flaws. I might as well call it The HAK3180 Effect. You keep doing things you're not supposed to do, and you do them at the best possible times to catch design flaws. I've never seen the beat of it. ;D If I was to analyze a full playthrough video, I'd probably see that there are other places where you do things you're not supposed to do, but I didn't notice it because they occurred in areas without design flaws. I'm just thankful that you caught this one, as well as the others you've uncovered in various maps.

 

At first, I hoped that you could simply fight this fight in isolation, because you made a save before taking the teleport to the BFG. Alas, you saved over it after you killed the exit Archies and before idclipping to the teleport closets, so it's impossible. I never ask anyone to test a big map twice, so I figure it's one and done with something like this. This is unfortunate because that fight was the main thing I needed to have tested. I know the fight is doable and can be beaten in one go if the player makes the right moves, but no one has tested this version of the fight except me. All the other tests were of the old version. I fortified the battle because I decided this was a good candidate for an E1 end-episode map, and I thought the original fight was decent but lacked a little something; in this case, a Cyb, an Archie and some Mancs. They make the fight much harder, but there is also the possibility that a player can cheese the fight if they do things a certain way, so I'd like to see if players can do that, and if so, figure out what I can do to prevent the cheese. I already have ideas for that.

 

You uncovered another flaw when you ciipped to the teleport closets. I saw that the Cyb was not moving and thus should never teleport in. I later discovered that the sound tube from the Archie's closet to his was zero height, so he heard no sound. This unveils a new mystery -- why does he always teleport in? I have no answer for this.

 

Anyway, the obvious fix for the BFG trigger problem is to make the pillar wider so the player cannot snatch the gun without triggering the trap. I made it the size it is because I wanted to give the player room to grab the ammo up there without triggering the hordes, as I suspect most players will assume that grabbing the BFG brings the hammer down. Viewed in UDB, it seems that there is no way the player can grab the gun without triggering the trap, but Doomguy has long arms that I keep forgetting about. :D 

 

I'll have another map for you once I bake some textures in. Once again, thanks for your playthrough, and congratulations on finding all the secrets!:)

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Posted (edited)

@Steve D, wow, I can't believe it was that simple, haha. The cyberdemon still appears because your zero-height tunnel is tagged to lower when it all hits the fan. So one could delay his entry by not shooting after getting BFG, but that's probably not all that plausible for very long.

 

But what's to stop me from going back to the megasphere teleporter and doing it again? Yeah, the arch-viles are dead, but they are behind the last door anyway - not really part of that fight.

 

As for the "BFG grab," doesn't Doomguy have to be halfway over to activate a line, i.e. 16 units. The trigger is only 12 from the BFG.

 

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On 6/18/2020 at 9:40 PM, HAK3180 said:

I liked the concept of the map, especially if it were simply made into two maps. It’s kind of a hub+3 meets sandbox, and all the different fights are different. The setpieces were often strategy-oriented, so not really my cup of tea, and I also thought the ammo balance was off – I was very short on rockets most of the first half of the map and the second half had several moments that seemed to call for BFG, but I was short on cells. Disclaimer: "It's made primarly for Ultra-Violence" discouraged me from a a lower difficulty. Visually, the quality is high, and the progression is fun right from the beginning. Highlight is probably the beginning of Act II. Lowlight is probably the very end, but I must have missed a cue or something.

 

Bottom line: really two distinct maps, both well made with potential ammo issues

Thanks for playing my WAD. :D
"The setpieces were often strategy-oriented" in general that's true. When you save after killing Cyberdemon i was thinking you completely screw yourself, luckily you are very resourceful and you meaneg to get out from there. I know it's kinda my fault that i don't give any clue but you already were on a platform with Mancubus before and you know what caming. In that case i would immediately get the idea to use Cyberdemon, is that only my natural reaction?
About ammo issues, I put just enoth rockets to deal with main fights (in act 2 the same go to cells), if you go careless you will be out of them really quickly. That way i want to add some resource management to gameplay and after watching you video and think it works really well. Way you defeat Archvile (the one that came out with pinkins after Arachnotron waves) was allsome, just look what lack of powerful resources make you play :D

In final battle you don't miss any clue. It was problem pointed by few people and I add it in patch, so my fault, hope it is more obvious now. 
I was struggle if i should separate this in to two maps but i decide i just like it more as a one.  

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3 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

But what's to stop me from going back to the megasphere teleporter and doing it again? Yeah, the arch-viles are dead, but they are behind the last door anyway - not really part of that fight.

 

Yay, you figured out a way to do that fight without re-doing the whole map. Yeah, by all means, go for it!

 

Funny, I figured out why the Cyb appears while doing some fixes on the map. That was a total mistake on my part, but one that had a positive impact. I'm always annoyed by my maps because if I have teleporting Cybs, then the instant you fire a shot you hear the moo of the Siege Cow. I always wanted a way to nix that, and as it happens, I did it totally by accident in this map.

 

Yes, you can delay the Cyb's entrance when you know what's going to happen, and you might even be able to do the most obvious exploit and increase your odds of success by holding your fire as long as possible, though you will be under fire from every direction, and have some clutter to clear, but I believe you could bull and sidestep your way a decent distance before you have to shoot. However, pretend you don't know, at least the first time. If you want to test what happens when you hold fire, you could open a save and give it a go.

 

Thanks for the info that the required distance is 16 rather than 12 for Doomguy to trigger a line. Hey, I've only been mapping since '96, why should I be expected to know anything about this engine? ;D

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5 hours ago, Steve D said:

Thanks for the info that the required distance is 16 rather than 12 for Doomguy to trigger a line.

 

Don't quote me on that; it may be more nuanced than that, especially with angles and stuff.

Anyway, "the missing fight" is below:

 

 

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@PeterMoro

Part 1

 

 

Part 2

 

Doomworld forum topic

 

It’s big. Very, very big. I appreciate how navigable it was. I almost could have used a little more exploration, to be honest. Often, when I thought I might have had a choice to make, the door didn’t actually open. But you definitely still had lots of options of pursuit. Progression was pretty clear throughout. You tended to know what you were striving for and even, in general, where you might look. The map plays casually, not offering any majorly tense moments. I think there are only three boss monsters and probably only around half a dozen arch-viles. Still, the pace is good. The combat rarely gets tedious even while it often isn’t exactly challenging. The ammo situation is a bit odd. I spent a lot of the map low on shells and bullets and high on rockets and cells. Depending on the target difficulty, I think a lot of cells, in particular, could be replaced with bullets and shells. I did not care for the three sidequest minimaps at all. I think the map would be better if they were simply removed altogether. It just felt like a cheap way to add length. I also didn’t really like the ending, but we’re talking maybe 30 minutes out of 150. Overall I like it a lot.

 

If PeterMoro or anyone else is curious, my favorite massive tech base is probably "The Supply Depot" by DooMknight or "Bury My Heart Knee Deep" by Ryath

 

Bottom line: A grand, epic tech base that ends up being fairly casual

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@HAK3180 I was wondering if you would be willing to give this map another play? Like I said before, I made a lot of updates since the original version to increase the quality of the map and I would love to see a playthrough of the current version and hear some more feedback to help me in my next map.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

It’s big. Very, very big. I appreciate how navigable it was. I almost could have used a little more exploration, to be honest. Often, when I thought I might have had a choice to make, the door didn’t actually open. But you definitely still had lots of options of pursuit. Progression was pretty clear throughout. You tended to know what you were striving for and even, in general, where you might look. The map plays casually, not offering any majorly tense moments. I think there are only three boss monsters and probably only around half a dozen arch-viles. Still, the pace is good. The combat rarely gets tedious even while it often isn’t exactly challenging. The ammo situation is a bit odd. I spent a lot of the map low on shells and bullets and high on rockets and cells. Depending on the target difficulty, I think a lot of cells, in particular, could be replaced with bullets and shells. I did not care for the three sidequest minimaps at all. I think the map would be better if they were simply removed altogether. It just felt like a cheap way to add length. I also didn’t really like the ending, but we’re talking maybe 30 minutes out of 150. Overall I like it a lot.

 

If PeterMoro or anyone else is curious, my favorite massive tech base is probably "The Supply Depot" by DooMknight or "Bury My Heart Knee Deep" by Ryath

 

Bottom line: A grand, epic tech base that ends up being fairly casual

Thanks for playing and reviewing my map HAK3180! I appreciate the effort becuase it was a marathon map. There were a few bugs detected that had gone unnoticed and i have a a much better idea of gamplay and and progression and what to adjust. I think I'll scrap the Wolfenstein and E1M1 area. There are quite a few things that I'll change to make progression smoother.

John Suitpee played tested this map and really hated it. He was livid and had a meltdown and rage quit for a mintue or so. I didn't think it was so bad but his reaction made me a bit depressed and i considered quitting mapping as well as even quitting Doomworld. So I'm really glad that you enjoyed it. LOL I was pretty bummed out. I think the gameplay was too simple and easy for him and he was bored.

 

Some areas didn't work as well as planned. Thanks to you I've learnt that gameplay is better with more pressure in areas and also that some areas are too symetrical and that creates a repetative feeling. Your reviews make me a better mapper. 

 

There were two secrets in the sewers that you almost found. I appreciate the effort you went to look for them. It was so close. Once you pressed the switch but didn't notice / hear the lift across the room. That was tough to watch haha. 

 

I agree the final fight was disappointing. I wanted an Icon of Sin grand finale fight which takes place in an outdoor arena. It somehow wasn't engaging enough. You didn't notice that you could activate lifts which take you to the top of the two main structures in the center of the outdoor area (in the lake). That's bad design on my part. From the top of those structures rockets are provided and you can kill the Icon of Sin without freelook. 

 

So this is my last huge map. I have a natural tendency to make gigantic maps which I'll focus on changing. From now on I'll make 20 min maps that are more challenging. I'm already a few months into my latest effort which will be short and a little difficult. You won't have to "wait until 2021 for Peter Moro's next big epic map".

Thanks again for playing and very glad that you enjoyed (most of) it.

 

(BTW thanks for the tech base map reccomendations - I'll check them out for sure.)

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Posted (edited)

Another map I finally finished - Flesh Mines. Well, I say finished but I don't think balance is entirely right. Would appreciate feedback.

 

This map is actually a remake of my first attempt at mapping. It's filled with point of no return and ambushes so save often.

 

flesh_mines.rar

Edited by ViolentBeetle

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@ViolentBeetle (It was very fortuitous that I noticed the update. You cannot just edit a post and expect me to see it.)

 

download the .rar

I like the layout, especially how alive it comes toward the end. I was not wild about the early setpiece-ish fights, but they weren’t boring either. I’m also not sure this is the best use of the Map 7 special. You get one chance to do it in a vanilla wad, and it’s hardly even noticeable here – certainly not the focal point of the map. The big war at the end was rather interesting, utilizing multiple small areas, damaging floor, and high priority monsters.

 

Bottom line: enjoyable space and some dynamic action

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9 hours ago, HAK3180 said:

(It was very fortuitous that I noticed the update. You cannot just edit a post and expect me to see it.)

I assumed you would download files right before playing. My next post has been also edited a few times, though in both cases changes are not that numerous.

 

After watching the video: You are the first one I showed the map who didn't pick up megasphere before going up, which might be a good choice. You are probably right about the rockets, I'm going to place some crates near the red key.

Edited by ViolentBeetle

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@Horus

 

download the .zip

 

The map is pretty ugly, though it does have some attempts at interesting architecture. I didn’t much care for the first part with awkward door openings and movement in general. The second half definitely had some thought go into it. I think I would have enjoyed it more if pain elemental spawn potential hadn’t been the primary source of difficulty. That put me in “skip this fight mode,” which is not too hard to pull off.

 

Bottom line: standard first time map stuff oddities with some ambition

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@Horus

 

Doomworld forum topic (Project)

 

I definitely forgot that this was under 21 sectors at times, so that’s a good sign. It had four distinct areas, all of which had some fun action and variety. There was not a ton of visual beauty or vertical movement, but altogether, this felt like a perfectly capable vanilla offering.

 

Bottom line: very impressive for just 20 sectors

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@HAK3180 Thanks for playing both the maps! I think the final section of my first map was more of a fluke than anything, on the face of it, it is kind of a throw every monster in the book kind of affair.

 

As for the 20 sectors map, I made some changes as a result of your video. The fact that you dropped down twice whilst trying to get the health bonuses in the SP_ROCK section was really odd, so I made the sector you land on larger. The confusion about 'am I really progressing?' is also a valid one, so I changed the teleport destination after each subsection closer to the exit teleport to make the progression clearer (you also may see the exit teleporter itself lower).

 

There were a couple of monsters that woke in the 'Heck' area early than they should have, but it didn't really alter gameplay that much tbh. The silent lift is due to the joined sectors. The lone archvile in the western area wasn't meant to be threat (although funny you should say that because it actually killed someone who played my map) but instead an anti-cheese against someone that tried to skip the caco-revenant battle. 

 

As for too many medikits, I very slightly reduced health in a couple of places but nothing big because I got other feedback saying the difficulty was well balanced. I didn't target Map 23 with this map, it just ended up there (mostly on account of its hell theme and being one of the easier hell maps). Finally, you are the third person to say something along the lines of 'I forgot this was 20 sectors at times', for which I remain surprised given the map's simplicity. The constraint itself might feel like 'a constraint for the sake of a constraint', but it ended up breeding a lot of creative maps with very diverse gameplay styles. Constraints in general also protect against the natural tendency for community projects to have consistently overly long maps (aka magnum opus syndrome) in my view.

 

As for now, already I have another (short) map for you. This is for a different community project, The Modest Mapping Challenge 2. The details of the level and project are below:

- Map name: Creature Analysis

- Download link: New link below
- Map 14 of Doom 2

- Vanilla compatible (preferred source port either Crispy Doom or prBoom+ complevel 2)
- 40 sectors max

- 5 monster types max (which 5 can change depending on difficulty)

- This map is in Episode 2 for which no SSG or BFG is allowed, and the theme is 'Overrun Techbase'

- Needs to be loaded with texture pack 'TMMC2TX' included in zip file (GothicTX + Greenwar 2)

 

Thread link: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/114660-the-modest-mapping-challenge-2-signups-open/

Edited by Horus

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@TesaQ

 

Yandex download page

 

I applaud the layout and progression and appearance. You really feel like you get to know this little complex, and it’s pretty easy to navigate. The combat could have been good for the most part. There were some awkward monster appearances with teleports and floor raisings, but nothing too terrible. I say “could have been good” because I was stuck with no good weaponry until right toward the end. All you get is a berserk at the beginning. I don’t want to pistol even a dozen monsters at the beginning. Throughout the map I felt underequipped. I will give the cyberdemon situation a pass. That was an interesting idea, and I don’t mind not being able to kill a monster right away. But it seems the only way to have fun with the rest of this is to find secrets. Super shotgun is at the very end. Rocket launcher and plasma gun appear to be secret only, yet lots of ammo for both is scattered throughout the map.

 

Bottom line: I’m excited about this set, but I hope the annoyances don’t become a major deterrent

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2 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

@ViolentBeetle, you've included no compatibility info for Flesh Mines. Please make a habit of considering this as important as the wad download itself.

Sorry, like with everything it's Doom 2 format, tested primarily in Crispy Doom.

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@TesaQ

 

Yandex download page

 

I’m glad to see improvement in the weaponry department. I did find 100 cells in a secret, but there were plenty of weapons and ammo pickups available here. Notably, it was a lot of rockets and cells, but that was fitting because the adversity was a lot of groups of weak monsters or meatier stuff – rather Plutonish. Layout and progression were great once again. I thought the lack of connection with the puzzle section seemed a bit lazy, but overall I like the space a lot.

 

Bottom line: a step in the right direction from Map 01, not that that was a disaster

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Thanks for playing and reviewing my maps. But i have a question about walkthrough. Why do you use the resurrection command on the first map instead of quick save/loading? The answer about difficulty and balance of this map is below
MAP01:

Quote

no good weaponry until right toward the end

This map is slightly different in gameplay from the rest. Here you need to devote time for infighting, since the cyberdemon pursues the player almost the entire map. If I give the player a good weapon and a lot of ammo at the beginning of the map, then he will just kill cyberdemon. Main idea of this map.

Quote

Rocket launcher and plasma gun appear to be secret only, yet lots of ammo for both is scattered throughout the map.

Cells and rockets for hidden weapons should force the player to search for secrets. It also shows that weapons that use rockets and cells are on this map.
MAP02:

Quote

I thought the lack of connection with the puzzle section seemed a bit lazy, but overall I like the space a lot. 

I have no idea how to connect these two different locations. So I connected them by teleport. Otherwise, it turns out as if this location was taken from another wad. Personally, my vision.
 

Edited by TesaQ

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@TesaQ, I've seen this cyberdemon pursuit kind of thing before. They are very hard to balance if you expect to have somewhat normal gameplay while all that is going on, because, as you say, if you give the player enough supplies, they will just kill the cyberdemon. One possible solution is to make the cyberdemon more distant and give up more shells and a super shotgun. A super shotgun is not very effective if you cannot get close. It's the same principle as giving up the berserk, which is a good idea but I don't think enough. I also think a good balance could give the player the hard choice: "I could just barely kill the cyberdemon but then I'd have nothing left for all these hell knights and gunners, etc." I think that's an interesting tension, if one can pull it off, and wouldn't necessarily undermine the gimmickry.

 

I understand that the pickups indicate the weapons are in the map. My opinion is that secret-only weapons are rarely a good idea, especially when there's significant ammo for it. In those case, finding the secret vs. not finding it is too much of a game-changer. If you're saying the weapon is practically necessary, then why is it in a secret? Secret BFG with no other plasma in the map? I like that. Secret rocket launcher early but there's another one later? I like that.   

 

As for resurrecting, if I just don't save and play a lot of level, I will sometimes resurrect rather than start over. Many of my deaths were from a rocket, which is often a one-hit KO anyway, so it's fairly easy just to pretend that that rocket missed, and the map maker doesn't really lose valuable FDA footage and the viewers don't have to watch the same footage over and over.

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@xxWeNxx

 

download the .rar

 

This one is definitely scarier than Map 01. From the start you know you will face an arch-vile, and the space is pretty small. The opening sequence is a lot of fun with monsters everywhere, but you have to alert them to find some ammo. Layout is strong and appearance is not noteworthy at all, in a good way.

 

Bottom line: compact and tense

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