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TeknoRider

[Vanilla] Vertical Glitched lines when adding crossed textured linedefs

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Hi all, I'm modding for vanilla and i'm trying to insert trees on a test map.

I tried using sprites, which works, but i want to use as few sprites as i can because of the 128 sprites limit + the fact that you don't have a lot of sprites slots to edit on vanilla. So i tried them using textures crossed, like you would do in 3D. It works great, except when i have more than 1, which creates these glitchy HOM-like lines (in the red zone, pic 1.) I tried like i do normally, (pic 3) and by closing the lines (pic 2) and still nothing, i get glitched up lines...

 

Any idea ? thanks in advance

1.png

2.png

3.png

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It looks like a slime trail.

 

Doom wiki has a good article about it (and some tips how to fix it).  But i think this is just too complicated for the vanilla dos engine to render properly.  

 

Quote

most slime trails can be repaired by moving sectors around and changing the place of the vertexes

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Slime_trail

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You need chocorender limits to see if you break any map or sprite limits if you work only with vanilla. Also, load crispy doom, prboom+ or eternity and gzdoom to see if they break the same way.

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Posted (edited)

alright thanks for the awnsers. so basically it pisses me off but i'll have to redirect the project towards doom2+ / crispy doom to make what i want. and it works great on crispy, even if it isn't fully vanilla anymore ... semi-vanilla ? anyway, thanks for the answers :)

 

EDIT : wtf testing on a dos machine and doom2+ crashes with numlumps errors when the OG engine dosen't, what.. i was on 98 dos mode, retried on 98, didn't crash but still glitched like in vanilla. welp looks like it's crispy doom only...

Edited by TeknoRider : testing stuff

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I suggest you let someone take a look at the WAD for you to make sure something isn't messed up.

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35 minutes ago, Linguica said:

I suggest you let someone take a look at the WAD for you to make sure something isn't messed up.

 

I don't think it's necessary, as i just took a stock D2 wad, recreated the map, tested with stock textures and resources, then recreated the trees in X like in the first post, dispatched them like before and the slime trails came back. i just think vanilla can't handle big open areas, especially with a big number of stuff in it, i want to make details...

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39 minutes ago, TeknoRider said:

 

I don't think it's necessary, as i just took a stock D2 wad, recreated the map, tested with stock textures and resources, then recreated the trees in X like in the first post, dispatched them like before and the slime trails came back. i just think vanilla can't handle big open areas, especially with a big number of stuff in it, i want to make details...

It doesn't matter if it is limit removing or vanilla. These slime trails are most likely a mapping error that is in effect independently of your mapping format. I highly suggest taking well meaning advice aboard if you want this problem fixed. Vanilla can handle big and open areas, for that matter, it mostly limits how many visplanes and sprites may be present at any time among a few other things. Doom2 map 15 is a pretty wide and open map, and it runs fine in vanilla, just saying...

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13 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It doesn't matter if it is limit removing or vanilla. These slime trails are most likely a mapping error that is in effect independently of your mapping format. I highly suggest taking well meaning advice aboard if you want this problem fixed. Vanilla can handle big and open areas, for that matter, it mostly limits how many visplanes and sprites may be present at any time among a few other things. Doom2 map 15 is a pretty wide and open map, and it runs fine in vanilla, just saying...

 

Alright, so here is the WAD. MAP01 is the normal map without the X trees. MAP02 is the same map with the trees in X added in the borders of the map, causing slime trails. https://we.tl/t-pG0db84rE0

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, TeknoRider said:

 

Alright, so here is the WAD. MAP01 is the normal map without the X trees. MAP02 is the same map with the trees in X added in the borders of the map, causing slime trails. https://we.tl/t-pG0db84rE0

So... First of all, you're basically editing the Doom2 IWAD there, meaning I just pulled a grand total 32 maps, hundreds of textures and sprites for nothing. So there's the first major blunder.

 

Now for the mapping errors:

 

It took me less than 30 seconds to find out that your maps are rife with overlapping sectors, and crossed linedefs that aren't connected with vertices. Of course this causes problems, doom maps aren't supposed to be like this:
AMC.jpg.b1b0a5ee25053f233ae5250de06e362e.jpg

AMC.jpg.dbd00a463677a866d62a879b1ce78e85.jpg

Map02, which is basically the same as map 01, aside of a few linedefs out in the wild, has the very same overlapping sectors that map01 has.

 

Then there is also the problem that in map02 you have sprites like the "tree things", or textures like the trees you built from linedefs and midtextures, reaching into the ceiling of the map, which may also cause glitches.

 

In simple terms, your maps violate the rules of how a map needs to be constructed in order to be free of issues like slime trails and HOMs. If I were you, I'd start learning the basics of mapping before thinking about a larger project, or a single high-detail map, for that matter.

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Okay thanks... so for whatever reason the wad i sent go corrupted or something as mine is clean, shows no error in the editor... tho i will make sure now that the sprites don't reach into the sky. As for the linedefs, do i have to make a sector out of them or i can just let them be lines as long as they don't overlap / they are connected when crossed ? To make grass and stuff

image.png

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okay, so i took my clean wad, made the celling higher, made sure there was no linedefs overlapping, sprites going higher than the celling or HOMs (the only untextured pieces are the borders walls so i can see the skybox in the distance.)

I tried running the map01 on chocolate without the X trees, worked fine, i tried with like 9-10 X trees around the maps behind the walls, still slime trails. I can send you the more complete build i have in PM if you want to take a look at it to make sure i didn't mess something up

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If the very same slime trails also show up in PrBoom+ and GLBoom+ for example, there's perhaps still some vertice that's messed up somehow. So I'd suggest testing in these 2 exes before looking for any more errors. Vanilla means you're limited in terms of how many visplanes you may have, and perhaps adding a couple trees may have pushed the map past that boundary.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If the very same slime trails also show up in PrBoom+ and GLBoom+ for example, there's perhaps still some vertice that's messed up somehow. So I'd suggest testing in these 2 exes before looking for any more errors. Vanilla means you're limited in terms of how many visplanes you may have, and perhaps adding a couple trees may have pushed the map past that boundary.

 

Opened it with PrBoom+ and GLBoom+, no slime trails, works fine, so it's just is a limitation of vanilla then?

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9 minutes ago, TeknoRider said:

 

Opened it with PrBoom+ and GLBoom+, no slime trails, works fine, so it's just is a limitation of vanilla then?

That's my guess anyway. Hitting the visplane limit of vanilla is disturbingly easy, after all.

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Okay. glad to know i didn't mess up, so i'll continue my project.

It's normal if i edited directly the doom 2 wad as i'm remaking all the assets and making everything myself, a standalone game like hack twitch n kill of sort.

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You should never edit the original doom2 WAD. You can just as easily create an empty WAD, tell doombuilder which slot you wanna map in, and it spares you all the unnecessary data from the IWAD that nobody needs anyway. The IWAD needs to be used alongside your maps as a base resource at all times no matter what you do, that's why all sourceports you use require to have the IWADs in the their respective directories. Aside of that, you're also not putting yourself in harm's way by redistributing parts of trademarked intellectual property which belongs to a multi million dollar company if you create a WAD archive from scratch.

 

Also we don't use the word "hack" here, unless we're referring to "DeHackEd". Creating custom maps for classic Doom is in no way shape or form an act of "hacking". I know ROM hacks exist in the SMB community, it's the terms they use there, but we have a slightly different terminology around here.

 

Also also, for somebody who is new around the block, you sure have a weird tendency to tell people with more experience under their belt than you have what's "normal", or what is or isn't necessary with regards to your current project. Odds are that most people around here are anywhere between slightly more and vastly more educated on the nuances of WAD editing than you currently are. Having said that, I pointed out that your project contains unmodified original id assetts for a reason, and you'd do yourself a huge favour if you removed those unmodified maps and assetts ASAP.

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I will try to separate my content from the D2 base wad, it's just important that it can be launched without any doom wad, it just would like it to be standalone, like Hack Twitch'n'Kill (the standalone game based on the doom engine.)

 

And i'm not saying editing directly from the doom wad is normal, i was just saying i initially intended to do that. I'm not saying i have more experience than anyone here or something like that.

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1 minute ago, TeknoRider said:

it just would like it to be standalone, like Hack Twitch'n'Kill (the standalone game based on the doom engine.)

This will require you to not use any original assets at all. All enemies, textures, sounds, music, HUD.... All of that needs to be re-made. You are looking at a fuckton of work there. Not something I would recommend doing when you're just getting started with mapping, to be honest. But then again, if you have that kind of stamina, by all means, go ahead and have fun.

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Just now, Nine Inch Heels said:

This will require you to not use any original assets at all. All enemies, textures, sounds, music, HUD.... All of that needs to be re-made. You are looking at a fuckton of work there. Not something I would recommend doing when you're just getting started with mapping, to be honest. But then again, if you have that kind of stamina, by all means, go ahead and have fun.

I already remade the pistol and CG, and the SSG is nearly complete with a dehacked patch to get them to behave differentely than they do in doom amongst other tweaks, all the levels use custom assets, i remade the HUD, a fraction of the SFX, the first enemy is re-done (zombiemen) i have the music on hand (Midis of the OST of Q2, can change later)... none of it included in the wad i sent except a few early textures that will probably change (i just don't like showing stuff when i'm not happy with it.)

I know it's gonna be long but i'm not saying i'll complete it in the coming weeks, it's a project i'll work on when i'll have some free time :)

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2 minutes ago, TeknoRider said:

I know it's gonna be long but i'm not saying i'll complete it in the coming weeks, it's a project i'll work on when i'll have some free time :)

I just hope you don't end up in the same pitfall so many mappers "died in" before. It's not unusual for mappers to look back at their first maps after a while, and feel bad about their first attempts at creating something, because a few maps down the line they became better at what they were doing. I'm not saying it is guaranteed to happen, but I've seen this often enough to know that it is quite likely to happen.

When you're new to anything, you usually improve at a relatively fast rate (ignoring any entry-hurdles), and as far as maps are considered, these improvements have a tendeny to show quite clearly, and, when looking back at your first efforts, in quite merciless ways, even.

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