I SMELL FEAR

[doomedout]

Well, I was watching the 11 minute video this morning, which YOU SHOULD DELETE ASAP AND SHOULD NOT DISTRIBUTE AND TALK ABOUT, in any case it answers most questions on this forum, if not all. When I was watching, WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT, I paid particular attention to 4 things; interactivity without use key and interactivity with environment, weapons, AI, and the general movement of the doomguy and the monsters.

When I first watched it, I did not ask any good questions about it, because I was too overwhelmed by it. Now, thanks to the revelations of PC gamer and numerous interviews, I found many things in the game which can be deceptively good.

At first, the idea of usekey not being incorporated into the game was being criticized, however, it actually enhances the feel of it. This is because you feel more apart of the environment. Again I have not played this game, these are only implied impressions. When the doomguy accesses one of the doors, it does not seem complex at all without a usekey, it is made more simpler-the action flows at a consistent pace.

Another part of the video shows him shooting at random some items placed on a stand, which gives us clues that some items are going to be very difficult to find and it adds to the realism to the game. The interactivity with the environment is just mindblowing, it is taking gaming really to a new level. The way the monsters and the doomguy interact with the environment is amazing to say the least. I really like the part when the doomguy uses the sorroundings to dodge a huge hell knight. The shadows and lighting are simply amazing...there are two parts which stand out: one is when the doomguy is watching a transparent glass and in the corner of his eye he can see a distorted view of the machinegun guy, another part is right at the end when you actually see the shadow of the hell knight consuming the doomguy.

Imagine playig the game now...will something as trivial as no use key actually make you cringe...I doubt it. The AI is simple which is essential to the game. The demons should not be smart, it does not make sense if you have a zombie running towards you and ducks underneath some cartons it finds on the way to avoid the fire. I personally prefer this game to be as close to the original as possible, with the doomguy having the edge in brainpower.

The environment itself is in confined halls so sidestepping can be difficult. However, the movement around this confined space is really sweet. The doomguy moves around with ease and when he gets injured he does not slow down. He does jerks up intensely when clawed.

The pink demon looks cheap on still pics, it really does. BUT IN THE GAME IT LOOKS SO FUKKIN AMAZING, I mean it kinda makes you think that things like graphics and gameplay can sometimes overwhelm all senses. The sound, well everyone knows it going to be kickass so I wont go in depth into that. THe weapons, there will be reloading on the pistol, that is for sure, but it seems to be a weak weapon. There is a smg, I THINK, that is similar to the one used in counterstrike. I also noticed very minute recoil, but I am not sure. The shotgun is really powerful and the rate of attack is similar to the original doom. There is nice inter-changing of weapons which is similar to half-life. When the doomguy jumps, he makes this distinctive sound similar to sarge in quake3. I found that pleasing.

All I am telling some doubters is that sometimes things can be deceptive, like no usekey or reloading or the still pics of the pink demon. But see it in context of the game, and you will see that these things actually make the game much much much much better.
I hope I have not violated anything by talking bout the leaked video, If i did, im sorry but all the questions can be answered in just 11 minutes of close observation.

The machinegun guy actually says...I SMELL FEAR..LOL

[Mod]

PARAGRAPHS MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK THEM

Paragraphs edited in for your convenience[/Mod]

[dsm]

Firstly, where did you see machinegun guys? I've only seen chaingunners, one of which says "I smell fearrrr" and a moment later: "DIE MORTALL!!!"
:-P
Secondly, I HAVE watched that video, but I still don't think that the lack of usekey adds to the game - rather it makes me better understand why some people bitch about it, when I take the console-manipulation into consideration.
You would want to decide for yourself when to start tapping on the console keys, not let the game suddenly drop your weapon because you get too close to the console.
Imagine the difficulties that modmakers will have when trying to ensure that consoles are not placed in annoying places where they could end up getting too close to it in the middle of a battle.

I still think that a usekey would do more good to this game than harm, but that's only my opinion.

Oh yeah, and Doom 3's gameplay seems to be kickass.

[Naked Snake]

BTW, anyone who links to said video gets banned. Instantly.

[Tetzlaff]

doomedout said:

When the doomguy accesses one of the doors, it does not seem complex at all without a usekey, it is made more simpler-the action flows at a consistent pace.

But it still isn´t clear *how* you enter the mode in which you can use the key pads etc. In the scene where he uses a console to operate that machine it looks as if the weapon is dropped whenever you look directly at the console. As dsm pointed out, it could easy lead to annyoing situations where you accidently lose control over your weapon for a moment.

The demons should not be smart, it does not make sense if you have a zombie running towards you and ducks underneath some cartons it finds on the way to avoid the fire.

Zombies and demons are not the same! Sure Zombies should behave dumb, because it´s the typical brainless Zombie behaviour... but beast-like demons like the Pinky should behave different, and some of the more sublime demons like the Archvile should better act a bit more clever. It isn´t that hard to code decent AI for those "higher" enemies. If all monsters would run into your gunfire like a Zombie it would be a bit disappointing.

[Linguica]

PARAGRAPHS MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK THEM

[Shaviro]

bigbadgangsta said:

BTW, anyone who links to said video gets banned. Instantly.

Hurray! Happy days!

[Mordeth]

According to that recent PC Gamer article, you can accidently walk into a console during a fight and enter "manipulation mode", which leaves you wide open for the monsters to "manipulate" you instead. "Your surroundings can kill you" indeed :/ It's retarded. Bring back the usekey already, and stop letting programmers have a say about game design.

[Naked Snake]

Mordeth said:
According to that recent PC Gamer article, you can accidently walk into a console during a fight and enter "manipulation mode", which leaves you wide open for the monsters to "manipulate" you instead. "Your surroundings can kill you" indeed :/

Yeah, that does suck.

Bring back the usekey already, and stop letting programmers have a say about game design.

Well, Carmack has a lot to say about Doom 3 because he is the programmer so taking away the control they have would be pretty stupid IMO.

[DooMer 4ever]

Are you sure that when entering the "manipulation mode" time doesn't stop around you so that the monsters will stop?

[Crix]

damnit, don't worry about triggering consoles by accident. I'll bet you a million bucks that a console won't be triggered if you back into them. You have to be directly facing them and as close as possible. I really don't think they'll put these consoles in places where it will be a problem. Unless you've never played an fps with a keyboard and mouse before and are learning basically how to move in these games for the first time then you won't have a problem.

The hell with the use key.

[Mordeth]

DooMer 4ever said:
Are you sure that when entering the "manipulation mode" time doesn't stop around you so that the monsters will stop?

According to that article you won't 'freeze' the game when entering this manipulation mode.

bigbadgangsta
Well, Carmack has a lot to say about Doom 3 because he is the programmer so taking away the control they have would be pretty stupid IMO.

Programmers ought to make things possible that game designers ask for. A programmer's decision on whether or not to include a feature such as a usekey ought to be based on feasability, and not on stuff like "I don't want to". The actual designers should have final say in what to include and what not, regardless who runs the company.

But that's just me.

[fen boi]

DooMer 4ever said:

Are you sure that when entering the "manipulation mode" time doesn't stop around you so that the monsters will stop?

No, the video clearly shows doomguy getting attacked while watching the machine, you have to switch back to the weapon.

The imp attacks looks a lot like the fiend from quake, very predicatable. The alert sound for the 'tentackle guy' is a bit too obvious for my liking.

As an aside, note that the lift doomguy exits at the begining looks exactly like those from Quake2.

[dsm]

Crix said:

damnit, don't worry about triggering consoles by accident. I'll bet you a million bucks that a console won't be triggered if you back into them. You have to be directly facing them and as close as possible. I really don't think they'll put these consoles in places where it will be a problem. Unless you've never played an fps with a keyboard and mouse before and are learning basically how to move in these games for the first time then you won't have a problem.

The hell with the use key.

Excuse me, but even if it requires you to directly face the console, you can still risk getting too close. And it has nothing to do with not being able to control the player character - I've tried it myself in the Quake games, for instance I would be in the midst of combat, I would move sideways and turn around - and suddenly finding myself facing a switch - bummer!

Suppose you want to get close to a railing in order to "snipe" at an enemy below with your shotgun and there happens to be a console next to the only place that would allow you to take the pot shot at the monster and then, just because you're a little too close to the console your weapon drops and enters manipulation mode and the monster spots you before you can get out of the manipulation mode - element of surprise lost.

Programmers ought to make things possible that game designers ask for. A programmer's decision on whether or not to include a feature such as a usekey ought to be based on feasability, and not on stuff like "I don't want to". The actual designers should have final say in what to include and what not, regardless who runs the company.

Actually I agree, a game designer is HIRED to ensure that the gameplay is fun - what the Hell would a game designer be worth if all his ideas are turned down because the programmer thinks they're "gimmicks"? What the Hell does the programmer know about gameplay? It's not the programmer's job to decide what good gameplay is.

[Crix]

okay, those are good examples of when the consoles could be bad but none that i hadn't considered before.

I'm pretty sure the level designers will place the monsters, the action, and the consoles in their proper places to minimize any undesirable console hooking.

Like doomedout was saying, I really think maintaining the flow of the game with automatic doors and consoles is more important than having that extra bit of authority.

[dsm]

Crix said:

I'm pretty sure the level designers will place the monsters, the action, and the consoles in their proper places to minimize any undesirable console hooking.

I imagine that too, but I'm kinda worried about the beefs that the modmakers will have to through. Really, it limits the freedom of making a level if you have to be careful about where to place consoles and doors.
All this could easily be avoided by adding something as simple as a Usekey.

[Crix]

Sorry about this one.

member? finally!??

I've been reading and writing in this forum since around the summer of 1999. First under the name CriZ and then I think I lost my password or something. Rice Crizzpies... remember, macvilewhore? heh. Ahhh... nostalgia, sniff sniff.

Now do I get a loving sub-handle like "Let's buy CriX an NV30!"? 8)

[Shaviro]

A use key just wouldn't work in this game. Get over it.

[Shaviro]

Crix said:

Sorry about this one.

member? finally!??

I've been reading and writing in this forum since around the summer of 1999.

Linguica
Doomworld webmaster
Registered: 05-00

WOW! You were here before Linguica? :P

[DooMer 4ever]

Crix said:

Sorry about this one.

member? finally!??

I've been reading and writing in this forum since around the summer of 1999. First under the name CriZ and then I think I lost my password or something. Rice Crizzpies... remember, macvilewhore? heh. Ahhh... nostalgia, sniff sniff.

Hmm, i've been here just over a month and i'm a member now. Btw when will i become "forum regular"? How many posts I need?

[dsm]

Shaviro said:

A use key just wouldn't work in this game. Get over it.

Bullshit, how do you know?
A use key could easily have fit at least the first two Quakes (because they had actual singleplay), the Usekey fit perfectly in the old Dooms. Why "wouldn't it work" in Doom 3 huh?

[Crix]

Hmm... maybe I'm mistaken. Can't remember exactly when I found this site. I was thinking it was the summer before my Junior year in College but maybe it was later.

Flathead was always posting, macvilewhore was really insane with his coffee antics and zaldron was the tech guru. Ling posted much more often... anyway, I do a lot more reading than I do posting as you might imagine. It's taken a long time.

BOO to the use key!! 8P

[Prime]

This footage is nothing short of amazing...however, one thing plagues me...

Every time I watch this, I think "Quake" -- not "Doom."

Why? I really don't know. Perhaps it is because Doom made such an impression on my mind that it's hard for me to let go of established Doom methods, such as large areas, hordes of monsters, and freaky music. What else did Doom stand for? Simplicity -- Simple tasks like finding keys or killing monsters, or the use key, for example. This new Doom that is being introduced to us is all at once astounding and, dare I say it, unsettling. Why astounding? Just look at it. It is THE most visually realistic game in the history of gaming. The animation itself is wonderful. The sounds are perfect. The enivronments are perfect. The scare factor is perfect. This new Doom installment SPELLS perfection...

So why is it unsettling? To start, many of the elements listed above that people remember as a trademark of Doom are absent from this new installment. Instead of large open areas (more like arenas of battle), we now have rather tight corridors. Instead of hordes of monsters we have a few here and there, to give us the scare we need. Instead of simplicity, the gameplay has gotten higher on the complexity scale. Is this bad? Absolutely not. By reimagining this game for the new millenium it was inherent that id would have to update the user interface to modern gaming standards and such. The point is that Doom created an image unto itself, an image that has become so cliche in the minds of people that it will be very hard to ignore when presented with this revolutionary FPS calling itself "Doom 3."

Now before everyone decides to lynch me, let me point something out. I have been waiting for this game as eagerly as anyone else on these boards, and to be perfectly honest, I think Doom 3 will live up to everyone's expectations. Will I buy it? Hell Yeah. Will I enjoy it? Fuck yeah. I'm not saying that this game is a let-down or anything. What I'm saying is that when I think of Doom I inherently think of certain things that were common to Doom, things that you might expect to see in a succeeding installment of the franchise. Hell, I remember back when we all found out about id making another Doom game, everyone starting screaming about how they hoped it would have the same weapons, or the same monsters, or whatever. I remember people talking about how they hoped it would have the same intense action as its predecessors, with thousands of monsters coming at you at once just like in the original, so I know that at least SOME of you agree with me. Sorry, but I can't shake certain feelings that this game probably would've made a more appropriate "Quake" title than a Doom title. Maybe it's because the demons look more like Strogg than they do demons. And I know people have already discussed this like "Oh, but that depends on your interpretation of what a demon looks like." That may be true, but id has already established to us what demons in the Doom universe generally look like, and these enemies are NOT Doom demons. They look cool; the designs are amazing, but they are not Doom, at least not IMO. It might also have something to with the environments. They are PERFECT. I absolutely love the atmosphere they provide for this game. But they more closely resemble, say, Quake 2 environments than they do Doom. And maybe this is only because we;ve only seen a small fraction of what id has to offer on this title. I'm only basing my current opinion on what I've seen -- nothing more.

Again, I think this game is amzing, and I'll be on the edge of my seat until its release along with everyone else.

[doomedout]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't John actually condoning or better yet actually applauding the implementation of use key? Seems he likes the idea but at the end seems to say that how FPS no longer needs the use key.

Read this:
Doomworld: How important do you think a "use" key is, in 3D FPS games? How important are keyed doors, or similar locking mechanisms?


John: I now believe that a USE key is an important concept to keep in FPS games because it enables interaction with your environment and allows more control over it. In DOOM deathmatch, you would always use the USE key to open and close doors between you and your opponent; it was an important DM strategy. In Quake, you basically have no control over doors -- they open when you touch them, but you can't close them on command.
As for having locking mechanisms in FPS games, they are still useful but are becoming less used as designers find more fun and clever ways of having the player get through the maps.

Hmmmm Read the last bit: AS DESIGNERS FIND...emphasis on FIND, FUN, GET THROUGH...
this goes to show that maybe Use key will not have that big of a effect on the overall gameplay of the game. After all, designers don't work for hours only to let something as small as use key stand between an outstanding game and an ordinary one.

[doomedout]

BTw that is John Romero, not Carmack...when he was working with ID. It seems that ID was planning on abandoning the concept of the use key when he was around.

[dsm]

[doomedout]

AHHHH,
DSM don't lynch the poor fella, some of his points are thought provoking and make sense. Do not deride people's opinions.
If I think back to doom, the first thing that DOES come into mind is shit loads of demons. There is no one that can deny that doom1 was a punch full of demons, most of them I agree with DSM where in confined corridors where demons could jump at you at any corner, but a sufficient amount of it was in large areas (ep1m5, ep1bosslevel)...and doom2 had a lot of large areas with demons crawling all over the place.
The point is, Doom3 Is awesome the way it is, but it would be interesting if they decide to broaden the environment, make it a little more spacious from time to time. Im sorry DSM, but Doom2 absolutely KICKED ASS, I can't even point out ONE FLAW in that game. And please do not say anything about Quake, in my opinion it had the best setting(gothic) and music any game ID has ever made.

[Use]

Prime said:

a bunch of stuff

yes i kinda made this point a little while ago and was subsequently lynched. I can't help but think 'quake' whever i see new Doom3 stuff floating about. id has never made a bad game (piss and moan about quake3 all you want, it's still very popular), and i'm sure doom3 will be nothing short of amazing.
i was just wondering why they chose to try to carry the Doom name when an entirely new project would seem more appropriate. They've already stripped the very things that made original Doom so good by retelling the whole deal. I'm just saying, what's the point of retelling Doom (which doesn't need any freakin retelling if you ask me) when you can make an entirely new original game with this kind of technology.
dsm is right about the original doom, but a little harsh on doom2. I think the variation in design style and combat style between the two games couldn't be better. It gave the feeling of really playing a new Doom game. the levels in doom2, although some are a tad on the lax side, are all very different compared to original, and this kept things intersting in my opinion. the issue is, am i going to feel like i'm playing a Doom game with Doom3? I guess only time will tell

and just for note, i am very excited about the game, i have high expectations.

[Perforator]

1. DSM is exactly right about Doom 3 and how faithful to Doom or "Ultimate Doom" it is, I loved doom 2 but its levels weren't nearly as interesting or as scary as doom 1, felt like urban warfair or some shit, but I still love the game.

2. Q3A is fucking awesome, so what if it doesn't have assualt or domination, q3:ta covered for that.

3. One thing I can't comprehend is why PEOPLE ARE FUCKING BITCHING OVER A GAME THAT HASN'T EVEN BEEN FUCKING RELEASED YET. You guys went off the fucking topic and are bitching about a wrothless user key thats been bitched about in about 4,000 other threads by now.

4. The Doomworld forums have been around longer then 2000, lin had to update the user registry or some shit because I remember I had to re register. By the way, where the fuck is the old crew, I don't see any fimiliar faces around here besides Lin.

[Naked Snake]

Perforator said:

4. The Doomworld forums have been around longer then 2000, lin had to update the user registry or some shit because I remember I had to re register. By the way, where the fuck is the old crew, I don't see any fimiliar faces around here besides Lin.

I seem to remember you...do you remember me?

[DooMer 4ever]

dsm said:

And here's a somewhat provocative statement: I'm one of the extremely few Doomers who thinks that Doom 2 was a lousy sequel to Doom. It captured very little of the original Doom's essence, because it had many more large "outdoor" areas and had a boring, repetitive tendency to just throw hordes of monsters (of up to fifty) against you instead of that cool suspenseful gameplay that Doom 1 offered, the maps were horribly designed - where the fuck was the Aliens aspect in that shit? - , and the story line was far worse than that of the first game.
Only things that Doom 2 got right imho was the new monsters and the ssg.

What, I tought many people don't like Doom 2. Well, I haven't been at the forums for long so how could I know. I certainly don't like doom 2. The only maps I can play are 1-8 and I don't like even them as much as the ones in Doom 1. Like dsm said, the only good things in doom 2 are the new monsters and SSG.