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Thorogrimm

Doom In Build Engine

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So has anyone every fully attempted creating a fully updated version of Doom in the build engine? I've been thinking that the resources from Doom 2 RPG aren't too stylistically dissimilar from what you'd see in something like Blood or Duke. An interesting proposal would be if someone were to create a kind of precursor to Doom (2016). Where Doomguy/Doom Slayer is stuck inside hell fighting until his entrapment. I feel like this could be a really good idea for a new project for someone to take up, if anyone is interested; considering I don't have the expertise in programming/working on such a project by myself.

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Mobile - Doom II RPG - Imps.png

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Personally, I would likely not be too interested in this project were it to come to pass because Doom is about more than the levels, art, music and sound. It's about feel. And that is fundamentally dictated by the engine. How the player moves through the environment, how the very world itself is rendered, it all coalesces to create what we know as Doom. Were I to play a Doom themed Build engine game, it would to me likely feel more like Duke or Blood with a Doom skin on it, not like an actual Doom game. It might actually be good on it's own merits. But it will not be Doom.

 

I remember an old Quake mod, Your Path of Destruction I think it was. Doom in Quake, basically. It looked Doom themed, but it felt nothing like it. This is why I love Doom 2016 so much. Somehow, someway, they made that modern engine flow and feel similar to classic Doom.

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Yeah, you need Doom's movement physics. Also, what would be the advantage over using an engine like GZDoom? I mean real advantages, not specific gimmicks like pulsating walls and such.

 

If you want a Doom 2.5 kind of experience, an update of the old game, there are mods that do it. With smooth weapons, smooth monsters, new weapon sets (Final Doomer for example), advanced HUDs and even the GZDoom video and audio options it provides. Combined with a wealth of mapsets and an awesome map builder.

 

Build is a quirky engine for games especially designed for it. Although I would like to see how the Doom maps would look in BloodGDX. And how the enemies would get blown the fuck up by my dynamite as Caleb laughs maniacally!

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Posted (edited)

I like the Build and the Build2 engine looks pretty cool; feature wise I'm not sure why Build/Build2 doesn't get more love and attention honestly.

But these days you could probably get just as much out of GZDoom.

I'd like to see more original games using the Build/Build2/GZDoom engines.

 

There's already Ion Fury (using Build/Eduke32 I believe) and Wrath: Aeon of Ruin (using Quake/DarkPlaces).

Retro-FPS games coming on in quantity (with quality) would be awesome!

Dusk really kicked off that trend IMO (using Unity).

 

Again, GZDoom is a good choice.

I just learned that the BUILD2 engine has been open sourced.

http://advsys.net/ken/buildsrc/build2.htm

 

Edited by 𝕲𝖗𝖊𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖌𝖊𝖗1

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why not use GZDoom? plus I think it would be hard to replicate Dooms movement in Build, if your trying to make something standalone you could use the Chocolate Doom or Crispy Doom source code as a codebase.

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On 10/9/2019 at 3:10 AM, Murdoch said:

Personally, I would likely not be too interested in this project were it to come to pass because Doom is about more than the levels, art, music and sound. It's about feel. And that is fundamentally dictated by the engine. How the player moves through the environment, how the very world itself is rendered, it all coalesces to create what we know as Doom. Were I to play a Doom themed Build engine game, it would to me likely feel more like Duke or Blood with a Doom skin on it, not like an actual Doom game. It might actually be good on it's own merits. But it will not be Doom.

 

I remember an old Quake mod, Your Path of Destruction I think it was. Doom in Quake, basically. It looked Doom themed, but it felt nothing like it. This is why I love Doom 2016 so much. Somehow, someway, they made that modern engine flow and feel similar to classic Doom.

Generally, I feel like you can do that with any engine if you give it a similar purpose and formula to Doom. What Doom 2016 did right was the pacing and the movement, and just the overall re-imagining of the universe that managed to resemble some elements of the 90s one. I felt like the Build engine would be an interesting engine to give life to a more updated version of 1993's Doom, and add a bit more in terms of physics and flow that other build games pulled off. IN other words, I'm a Blood junkie that wants to see Doom in a similar fashion, and see how it would look in a slightly higher resolution and dynamic landscape. You could say that Doom 64 even expanded on that, but it still felt a little flatter compared to Build games (not knocking D64 though).

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On 10/9/2019 at 4:04 AM, VGA said:

Yeah, you need Doom's movement physics. Also, what would be the advantage over using an engine like GZDoom? I mean real advantages, not specific gimmicks like pulsating walls and such.

 

If you want a Doom 2.5 kind of experience, an update of the old game, there are mods that do it. With smooth weapons, smooth monsters, new weapon sets (Final Doomer for example), advanced HUDs and even the GZDoom video and audio options it provides. Combined with a wealth of mapsets and an awesome map builder.

 

Build is a quirky engine for games especially designed for it. Although I would like to see how the Doom maps would look in BloodGDX. And how the enemies would get blown the fuck up by my dynamite as Caleb laughs maniacally!

Well you're in luck, because someone did remake E1M1 in French Meat for Blood. This is part of the reason why I got this thought of a full Doom remake/re-imagining in the Build engine. In practice, maybe it isn't suited for a fully fledged Doom game, but it does look fun and brings some nostalgia. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Thorogrimm said:

You could say that Doom 64 even expanded on that, but it still felt a little flatter compared to Build games (not knocking D64 though).

 

Knock away. I have never liked Doom 64. It always felt like a half baked Quake 1 clone more than a Doom game to me. Much of the level design is annoyingly obtuse. The enemy redesigns range from OK to terrible to hilarious. The Mancubus looks like a giant mutant rat.

 

I get what you are saying and wish you luck but I think you would need to really be able to fine tune the movement to make it feel truly like Doom. Maybe one of the source ports allows such a thing nowadays, I have not actively followed Build development. As others in this thread have mentioned, GZDoom features many Build like features so is there anything in particular you feel could only be done in Build instead of GZDoom?

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The Build engine is extremely limited and glitchy, as far as max number of lines, things, sectors, etc. it's worse than vanilla Doom. There are no user-friendly editing tools for it. Mapping is weird and relies on a lot of strange kludges and hacks and magic numbers. There's really no good reason to use Build for a Doom project.

 

 

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The ability to place sprites on flat planes relative to floors and walls alone is extremely valuable, in the build engine it's also easier and quicker to make slopes and change a complex setup once they've been set. The sector effects are also more robust being functions with multiple variables and this only increased in Blood and SW. Eduke source port has increased limits and quality-of-life upgrades such as onscreen sound effect radius. I've hit the line limit before but by then you're probably over-detailed anyway. At that point to finish a map I went back and cut out unnecessary lines.

 

The only thing I dislike about build over Doom is how build handles activating effects by the touchplate function sprite. It's not as effective as lines or other systems I've seen in different engines. Both Build and BSP have good and bad points, one thing about Duke that always bothered me was how weapons firing increases light values across the whole map with every shot. 

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Quick bought Duke 20th Anniv World Tour on steam recently which I had on my wishlist, just in case BP's lawsuit causes any temporary snafu (They could have avoided that shit and end up paying less if they just freaking paid him!).   Thought they would have fixed the ridiculous random wall clip instant gib glitch by now (aside from being gibbed so easily from simple doors).   Nope.   Strafed left with plenty of HP and suddenly got a message that I died.   But fortunately now it records as you play and gives you sliding bar to go back to any moment of your previous gameplay.   Thinking of switching to EDuke after episode 1 as I ASSUME it's better.

 

Out of Duke, Shadow Warrior, and Blood, I probably played Blood the least.  I think only the demo.   But I get the impression it's the best Build engine game so got Fresh Supply on my wishlist.   Will always prefer Doom but had some fun Duke matches and Shadow Warrior deathmatches back in the dial-up modem game days.

 

Still waiting for my big box of Ion Fury to arrive I ordered over a month ago.   Anyone else get it or is everyone playing the digital download?   I got my key but I want to install off the physical edition.

 

That E1M1 for Blood looks cool except it erodes my soul that the switch to get outside close to the beginning doesn't seem to be there and it doesn't have some relatively similar item or weapon in place of the berserk pack that only appears on lower skill multiplayer.

 

EDIT: Someone just got their Founder's Edition box two days ago so it looks like they just got sent out.

 

Also nice Build version Doom sprites there!

Edited by Gokuma

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2 hours ago, Thorogrimm said:

Well you're in luck, because someone did remake E1M1 in French Meat for Blood. This is part of the reason why I got this thought of a full Doom remake/re-imagining in the Build engine. In practice, maybe it isn't suited for a fully fledged Doom game, but it does look fun and brings some nostalgia. 

 

I am still not satisfied, I would like the textures to be Doom textures and even the Doom monsters to be ported over :D

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20 hours ago, Gokuma said:

Quick bought Duke 20th Anniv World Tour on steam recently which I had on my wishlist, just in case BP's lawsuit causes any temporary snafu (They could have avoided that shit and end up paying less if they just freaking paid him!).   Thought they would have fixed the ridiculous random wall clip instant gib glitch by now (aside from being gibbed so easily from simple doors).   Nope.   Strafed left with plenty of HP and suddenly got a message that I died.   But fortunately now it records as you play and gives you sliding bar to go back to any moment of your previous gameplay.   Thinking of switching to EDuke after episode 1 as I ASSUME it's better.

 

Out of Duke, Shadow Warrior, and Blood, I probably played Blood the least.  I think only the demo.   But I get the impression it's the best Build engine game so got Fresh Supply on my wishlist.   Will always prefer Doom but had some fun Duke matches and Shadow Warrior deathmatches back in the dial-up modem game days.

 

Still waiting for my big box of Ion Fury to arrive I ordered over a month ago.   Anyone else get it or is everyone playing the digital download?   I got my key but I want to install off the physical edition.

 

That E1M1 for Blood looks cool except it erodes my soul that the switch to get outside close to the beginning doesn't seem to be there and it doesn't have some relatively similar item or weapon in place of the berserk pack that only appears on lower skill multiplayer.

 

EDIT: Someone just got their Founder's Edition box two days ago so it looks like they just got sent out.

 

Also nice Build version Doom sprites there!

Do not use the World Tour engine, use eduke32 with that stopgap mod for World Tour. And use the Polymer renderer for the cool lighting effects that World Tour has. So use the data files from World Tour.

 

And do not use the Fresh Supply engine, use its data files with BuildGDX. And yes, Blood is the best Build game for many people, even though Duke is more famous. :D

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On 10/9/2019 at 8:03 PM, BBQgiraffe said:

why not use GZDoom? plus I think it would be hard to replicate Dooms movement in Build, if your trying to make something standalone you could use the Chocolate Doom or Crispy Doom source code as a codebase.

Because it's not hipster enough to use the engine everyone uses nowadays xD But, for real, there's nothing wrong with GZDoom, I'd just like to see how a Doom adaptation would fair in the Build Engine.

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23 hours ago, Gokuma said:

Quick bought Duke 20th Anniv World Tour on steam recently which I had on my wishlist, just in case BP's lawsuit causes any temporary snafu (They could have avoided that shit and end up paying less if they just freaking paid him!).   Thought they would have fixed the ridiculous random wall clip instant gib glitch by now (aside from being gibbed so easily from simple doors).   Nope.   Strafed left with plenty of HP and suddenly got a message that I died.   But fortunately now it records as you play and gives you sliding bar to go back to any moment of your previous gameplay.   Thinking of switching to EDuke after episode 1 as I ASSUME it's better.

 

Out of Duke, Shadow Warrior, and Blood, I probably played Blood the least.  I think only the demo.   But I get the impression it's the best Build engine game so got Fresh Supply on my wishlist.   Will always prefer Doom but had some fun Duke matches and Shadow Warrior deathmatches back in the dial-up modem game days.

 

Still waiting for my big box of Ion Fury to arrive I ordered over a month ago.   Anyone else get it or is everyone playing the digital download?   I got my key but I want to install off the physical edition.

 

That E1M1 for Blood looks cool except it erodes my soul that the switch to get outside close to the beginning doesn't seem to be there and it doesn't have some relatively similar item or weapon in place of the berserk pack that only appears on lower skill multiplayer.

 

EDIT: Someone just got their Founder's Edition box two days ago so it looks like they just got sent out.

 

Also nice Build version Doom sprites there!

Blood is definitely worth the try, but I wouldn't start with Fresh Supply. It's good but it's not as good as BloodGDX in terms of active support, polish and mod playability.

I see what you mean about the switch with that E1M1 remake, I was a little confused and saddened when I realised that was one of the things they didn't add. But yeah, it's cool to see what they did with it in tribute to classic Doom. 
(FYI, those sprites were from Doom 2 RPG, so I don't own them xD)

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I think the switch was added later for multiplayer purposes. The original version E1M1 doesn't have it.

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13 hours ago, VGA said:

I think the switch was added later for multiplayer purposes. The original version E1M1 doesn't have it.

Huh... I didn't know that. In every version I've played, there's always a switch by the shotgun guy. But I guess that's understandable for deathmatch reasons. 

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45 minutes ago, Thorogrimm said:

Huh... I didn't know that. In every version I've played, there's always a switch by the shotgun guy. But I guess that's understandable for deathmatch reasons. 

Yeah, look here:

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/E1M1:_Hangar_(Doom)

 

Quote

[Added in Ultimate Doom]  In the alcove leading to the green armor, there are two pillars. The north pillar has a switch (E) which opens up a door to the courtyard (F) with the blue armor and, in multiplayer mode, a rocket launcher. As a player walks through this door, another large door will open up, making it possible to get to the courtyard from the computer room. These new doors were likely added to improve gameplay in deathmatch mode since they provide two extra ways to reach the rocket launcher.

 

You can find all kinds of interesting stuff in the Doomwiki, I have even added it to my browser search engine bar because I used to land on Doom Wikia by mistake.

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This is the best Doomed Duke mod so far, because it doesn't try to recreate the original Doom 1/2, it clearly inspired by KDiZD (and even uses some resources from it) and brings custom levels here.

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55 minutes ago, Sgt Nate V said:

 

Wow, this is crazy. And I see many other interesting videos on that channel!!

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On vendredi 11 octobre 2019 at 1:34 AM, reflex17 said:

The ability to place sprites on flat planes relative to floors and walls alone is extremely valuable

GZDoom has that.

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GZDoom, to be honest, can do everything Build Engine can do. And ever more sometimes. So yes, GZDoom is the best option.

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3 hours ago, Gez said:

GZDoom has that.

 

 

 

Yeah I know, It also has resizing and panning textures, but the interface and controls for these functions are better integrated into the build engine.

 

I wasn't trying to argue in favor of one or the other, ease of use should be sacrificed if one engine has more features than the other, and by now GZDoom outshines Build, there's no question.

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Can GZDoom do the pulsating floors and walls as seen here after 0:35?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ3TN5Q033I&t=37s


Also, can it do this floating platform which becomes angled? As shown at the start of this video?

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Also, can it do this effect of rifts opening in the ground as shown at the start od this video?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imy6nk7Xvf8

 

 

And can you create portals like this? And even push monsters or have them go through them, too? As shown here?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMr3gLEhDnc&t=1s

 

Edited by VGA

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34 minutes ago, VGA said:

Can GZDoom do the pulsating floors and walls as seen here after 0:35?

Yes. Wobbling floors and ceilings aren't a problem, there are Hexen specials for that; wobbling walls require polyobjects and are more delicate to set up but it's possible too.

 

Alternatively, because that's going to be the answer for other things too, you can use animated models.

34 minutes ago, VGA said:

Also, can it do this floating platform which becomes angled? As shown at the start of this video?

Nope, for sector deformations, Build still has an edge, the BSP is fixed and can't be twisted as easily. However, you can imitate the effect with models.

34 minutes ago, VGA said:

Also, can it do this effect of rifts opening in the ground as shown at the start od this video?

Same answer as above.

34 minutes ago, VGA said:

And can you create portals like this? And even push monsters or have them go through them, too?

Yes and yes, actually.

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After having played Ion Maiden Fury, and a bit of Duke Nukem 3d: World Tour, I can't see what advantage the Build Engine would bring that Zdoom and other major mods have not done better. Graphically, I've seen far more impressive Doom mods in recent years than anything the Build Engine has going. At most, it would be a small novelty IMO, but really... the Doom community has gone far past Build at this point. 

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Hmm...

13 hours ago, Gez said:

for sector deformations, Build still has an edge, the BSP is fixed and can't be twisted as easily. However, you can imitate the effect with models.

 

I really do hope True Moving Sectors that can at least handle Slopes and have Tops and Bottoms can be Implemented one day, hopefully in the form of a Cylindrical Collision Shape Option!

I heard that on the Build Engine Thread on the ZDoom Forums...

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@Gez

 

Thanks for the info. I guess Build is still the best when it comes to deformation and destructibility. But what about simple swinging doors? Can you do that in GZDoom without weird workarounds? I mean simple flat/sprite doors that swing open and close. Also, can the severed head kicking be replicated in GZDoom? They get kicked differently, depending on the angle and the speed of the player. I think they also roll down slopes. Generally, Build has cool physics (sometimes glitchy)

 

This is relevant to the discussion and a fun video :D

 

 

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