Am I THAT wrong??

[FirebrandX]

On another Doom forum, I was viciously attacked for preferring a graphic-accelerated Doom port like Jdoom over a standard port like Zdoom. I had even stated ahead of time that Zdoom did have many nice features, but I made the mistake of saying I felt the graphics were crap. So I get jumped on with super-large fonts about how I'm some sort of idiot because I actually dared say something bad about Zdoom. I get this "judging a book by it's cover" analogy thrown at me and then I get threatened with violence.

Now here's my reply I made to defend myself:

"Crendowing, Zdoom does have nice features and is generally a great port. However, If I can play doom in all it's glory on 32-bit color graphics with lighting and glow, then I will choose to do so every time. Now I know you must be a huge fan of Zdoom, but trust me, the graphics are WAY outdated. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME IS BAD! One of my all-time favorite console games is PSX Doom, yet I'll be the first to admit the graphics and fps rate suck by todays standards. I'm not going to flip out and threaten violence if someone else makes this same observation.

Bottom line: If I can play the SAME game on better graphics, IT DOES make it that much better and more desired to have if possible. I already know the gameplay is great, otherwise I wouldn't be playing Doom at all. How dare I? Because it's my opinion. Get used to that on the Internet and stop insulting people.

Also, your book analogy is completely inaccurate for your argument. Here's a much more accurate analogy for the situation:

I have a choice between watching a DVD of Evil Dead 2 on a widescreen giant plasma set, OR watching a VHS tape of Evil Dead 2 on a 13-inch black and white tv set. The movie is exactly the same and still the same awesome content, but the difference is in the visual quality. It makes a great movie even more enjoyable to watch. I guarantee you 99 out of 100 people would take the DVD on a giant plasma set. Are they shallow because of this? Nope. THIS is the crux of my point.

The falacious "book" argument has been misused on the Internet far too many times. A book is text that you read to create your own conclusions and environments. As long as the text is legible, there's no accurate analogy to be made from it over video games. Doom was a great game not because you can mindlessly shoot enemies, but because of the 3-dimentional surroundings and how you interact with them. Otherwise, they could have just made a giant square with a bunch of bad guys in it.

The only way to make a book analogy from our difference of opinion would be this:

2 books are made from the same story:

Book "A" (Zdoom) provides a generalized account of the story using minimal detail to get the point made. However, it is available in 7 different languages and has multiple large and small, hard and paperback editions out on the market.

Book "B" (JDoom) provides an expertly written account with a beautifully detailed rendition of the entire story. However, it is only available in one language and is only in expensive hard cover form.

The anology here is simple. Book "A" has more options and compatibilty, while book "B" does not. What makes some people prefer book "B" is the better experience of the story itself. This is EXACTLY why some people very much enjoy playing Doom on accelerated graphics. It has absolutely nothing to do with being shallow. Any attempt to label it as such is misguided and biased at the same time."


Now before zdoomers start bashing me, please try to remember that I do aknowledge Zdoom's great features. In fact, my dream version of Doom would be Zdoom using the Doomsday engine. As it is now, I will continue to prefer Jdoom whenever possible. Call me shallow I guess, but maybe I'm more spoiled than anything...

[Naked Snake]

Hahahahaha, crendowing. BTW, ZDoom rlz, JDoom's models and itself are ugly. Kthx.

[FirebrandX]

I only use the item models by abbs. I don't use monster models at all (as I feel enemies on Doom should only be sprites). I would like to know how jdoom looks "ugly"? If it does, then that's the nicest "ugly" looking Doom I've ever seen!

[sirjuddington]

Heh.

I prefer ZDoom also, I'd rather play maps with cool new features than maps with nothing new except pretty graphics. And JDooms models are ugly too.

[FirebrandX]

Of course I'd play zdoom if there was no way to play the level on Jdoom properly, but I'd obviously play whatever levels did work on Jdoom on jdoom. Also, let's forget about the models. Those are completely optional, so saying they suck doesn't really give me a point of reference.

[Linguica]

Hahahah, I remember Crendowing. He so crazy.

[Ralphis]

haha u suck zdoom ruuls kthxbye

[Ichor]

I prefer JDoom, but I use the normal sprites. Most 3D models in Doom, no matter how nice looking, just don't seem to fit in all that well with the Doom atmosphere. There are some exceptions, like weapon, ammo, and item models. Even more so for Heretic and Hexen, since not every sprite has a replacement model.

If I ever do play ZDoom, it's for maps that require it.

[mmnpsrsoskl]

Yes you are wrong :P

Joking. Whichever port you choose is what you want, not what someone else wants. If you prefer jDoom over ZDoom, then that's your choice.

[VileSlay]

heh, I had just started using jdoom last week, just to try out spikes underworld wad. the models are ugly, but I think the sound is great. other than that, I think zdoom has great enhanced gameplay features. legacy is my other favorite port, BTW. that allows opengl rendering and will probably soon have md2 models.

you gotta remember this, firebrandx, opinions are like assholes. everyone has one and they all stink. don't let someone elses opinion get to you.

[FirebrandX]

Thanks vileslay. One prime example is sysyphus' remark, which isn't worth directly responding to.

One thing I'd like to point out is that MODELS ARE OPTIONAL! Some of you keep yacking about how ugly models are. There's this neat feature where you can turn them off. Just because they happen to be an option available doesn't mean the port sucks. In fact, the models are not part of the Jdoom port. They are merely an option and nothing more.

Next point. The whole thing that started this was a level made by Kaiser that didn't work on Jdoom. He suggested I try Boomsday and it worked great!! Bingo, now I've got extra features and yet I still get to keep the nice visuals. Here's how the level looks on "Ugly" Jdoom:




Yes, I must have been out of my mind for preferring this look of Doom. It truely is ugly (and I do apologize for using item models, being that they are an ugly option). I also use a PSX sound effects wad I made myself. Now here's the same level on zdoom:




Level works eactly the same as it does on Boomsday. Sorry, but if I can play these levels on Boomsday, I'm doing it!

[Ichor]

The pictures aren't there. Bad link, perhaps?

Never mind. I see them now. That second one looks fullbright, or it's as if your wearing the infrared goggles.

[FirebrandX]

My fault on the second pic, I had to use hypersnap and I inadvertantly set the gamma too high. I'll see about getting it more accurate.

Edit: fixed the gamma on the zdoom pics.

In closing, I'd like to just say that I've already aknowledged the extra features zdoom has. They are great and I've never denied that. That's not my point anyway. My point is I shouldn't be accused of being an idiot just because I prefer the graphics of one port over another. It's not shallow of me and gameplay isn't an issue since it's the same game. And like I said before, I'd jump for joy if Zdoom used the Doomsday engine. Until it does, I'll only use zdoom when I absolutely have to. In this case Boomsday kept me from having to.

[CyRaptor]

I use JDoom when I'm playing through a megawad or something like that. There are a few things I don't like about JDoom; for instance, the models. Yeah, they're optional, but the alternative is an even flatter-than-normal looking sprite.

I use ZDoom almost exclusively for testing my own maps simply because it's easier to start up (in my mind anyway).

All in all I actually think I would say JDoom is better even though I've used ZDoom only up until recently. I'm not saying ZDoom's bad, it's just JDoom is... sexier.

[Ichor]

Oh yeah, one other thing. Those pictures are a bit too big for these forums. The limit is 640x480.

[CyRaptor]

I just realized something... those screenshots look like a port of "Watch Your Step" (I think) from Doom 64. Am I right, or am I nuts?

[FirebrandX]

Yep, they are from "Watch Your Step" of Doom 64. The level was converted by Kaiser.

I didn't know about the size limit of 640x480. I'll change them immediately.

[myk]

I don't see how the 1st pic looks better than the 2nd, you could say the latter tends more towards a drawing or a "cartoon" and the latter tends towards a magazine cover or a photograph. Neither picture is really realistic, and whereas in one the SSG is pixellated, in the other it looks like a geometric figure. I wouldn't confuse a rendering style with being better except as in better relating to some vague usage standard (mostly commercially based and assuming that realistic things are better) and not artistic merit or anything like that. Anyway, Quake already exists, what's the point in making DOOM look like it? I mean, it's fine, the variant option is OK for those who prefer it. But attempting to show it as "better" suits more someone trying to sell something than someone who likes playing games.

[DOOM Anomaly]

Well, I use both Jdoom and Zdoom, but Zdoom more often, mainly cuz my Jdoom doesnt use those neato 3D models for sum reason, and the sounds keep echoing....Meh, they're both good imo, for their own reasons of course.

[FirebrandX]

Myk, you're forgetting one thing:

It looks better to me. The point is I shouldn't be flamed for thinking it does. It's my personal taste. Also, I get something like 80fps on jdoom in 1024x768 mode. The motion is stunningly liquid-smooth and was only recently added as a feature to jdoom. Now while you may think I'm "selling" my opinion, you are just as guilty with your opinion (which I suspect was made purely for the sake of argument). Doesn't EVERYBODY try to sell their opinion? That's certainly no fault of mine, it's human nature. I'm sure a poll of unbiased people would reveal that one does look better than the other, whether it be jdoom or zdoom.

But I guess I really am wrong. Maybe somehow zdoom really does look better in those pics and I just can't see it. I apologize if that's the case. Boggles my mind though...

PS, I don't play Quake, so spinning the debate down that slippery slope isn't really fair. I couldn't care less what Quake looks like. I know it doesn't have Doom creatures or Doom levels. That's why I still play with monster sprites. Monster models just don't feel right to me on Doom.

[Naked Snake]

Yeah, those models look better than the ones I had...goddamn dude. Holy shit. Dude, take a screenshot of every weapon, make a zip file of the screenshot zip and post the URL.

[FirebrandX]

Ahh, I kind of suspected people were using cheb's models instead of abbs' alternate models. Abbs' alternate models kick major ass and he only does item and weapon models. You should hear the sound effects for them too! The DB shotgun has beefy bass. I'll make a zip file of all the weapon pics so you can download it. Give me about 30 minutes.

[DOOM Anomaly]

FirebrandX said:

Ahh, I kind of suspected people were using cheb's models instead of abbs' alternate models. Abbs' alternate models kick major ass and he only does item and weapon models. You should hear the sound effects for them too! The DB shotgun has beefy bass. I'll make a zip file of all the weapon pics so you can download it. Give me about 30 minutes.

Rightio Amego:D

[myk]

Yeah, I even said that I don't mind other points of view above. What's more, I like the fact that people become attracted to this old game due to graphics engine mods or added features. I'm sure the project I'm working on will be able to run smoothly on almost any engine popular today. But my point was that you brought your arguement with someone who isn't even here to us (and it's not like this has not been discussed 1000 times already) and also, I felt inclined to explain that in a great part this perception of "betterness" in accelerated graphics is market-based (pixellated graphics don't really sell now.) I personally don't even prefer either engine, and generally don't use them to play, but if I have to choose, the standard graphics attract me much more, for various reasons not worth mentioning. Plus I don't see why I'd like this game less than usual when it looks like it did when it initially attracted me.

[Captain Red]

FirebrandX said:
[Sweet ass models]

URL ME! I WANT THEM! are those chebs models? if so, I need to update. Also those maps look sweet. What wad are they from?

I use Jdoom for the original Doom wads and unambitious iwads with modles on, The PSX sound and music, and of corse, mouse look. It's almost has a whole new feeling but still doomish enough to please me... and frankly, I’m a little tired of "old skool" doom. This is just how it suits me. I Find it more fun with the extra features on.

if for mods, or feature happy maps, I need Zdoom. then I use it. I's a great source port. IMO One of the best. But I just like how jdoom looks.

So don't feel alone FirebrandX. oh and ignore the fanatics. People who can't accept that change of any kind. It’s not like anybody forcing them to play it, and I simply don’t under stand why they feel the need to bad mouth jdoom all the bloody time. Compensating for something else perhaps?

[Grazza]

I like jDoom, and I also like the md2 models. Anyone who flames you for also liking it/them is probably taking the piss or something. OK, I can understand that some people may not be entirely happy in principle with md2 models in Doom, but I think the models are in themselves well-made pieces of artwork.

In some ways jDoom is truer to the original Doom than some ports: the Arch-Vile "bug" hasn't been "corrected", for instance.

I tend to use Legacy rather than jDoom though, for two main reasons: demo recording is simpler in Legacy, and I'm not sure that wall-running is correctly implemented in jDoom (I could be wrong though). And of course Legacy does fog. :)

I used to use Zdoom by default (esp. before I got a 1337 new 'puter), but now only use it for wads that require it. It just doesn't look as good as jDoom or Legacy.

Anomaly: When you say "the sounds keep echoing", do you mean the normal reverb (which is adjustable - turn it off if you like), or do you mean that you sometimes get some sort of resonance effect, where the sound builds up into a deafening noise in some areas? I had the latter problem occasionally, but with the latest version (Doomsday 1.7.5) the problem seems to be gone (or maybe it's because I changed the sound effects sample rate to 44100 Hz).

EDIT: Wall-running seems to be fine in jDoom - don't know why I thought it wasn't. I haven't done any speedrunning in jDoom, and I must have been getting the angle wrong or something...

[Captain Red]

{Umm this post isn't here}

[DOOM Anomaly]

Ct_red_pants said:

Ct_red_pants said:


URL ME! I WANT THEM! I need to update. Also those maps look sweet. What wad are they from?

I use Jdoom for the original Doom wads and unambitious iwads with modles on, The PSX sound and music, and of corse, mouse look. It's almost has a whole new feeling but still doomish enough to please me... and frankly, I’m a little tired of "old skool" doom. This is just how it suits me. I Find it more fun with the extra features on.

if for mods, or feature happy maps, I need Zdoom. then I use it. I's a great source port. IMO One of the best. But I just like how jdoom looks.

So don't feel alone FirebrandX. oh and ignore the fanatics. People who can't accept that change of any kind. It’s not like anybody forcing them to play it, and I simply don’t under stand why they feel the need to bad mouth jdoom all the bloody time. Compensating for something else perhaps?

Wha? I dont understand why you just quoted urself...clarify, I dont like being left out...

EDIT: nvm..its fixed...

[Grazza]

Ct_red_pants said:

URL ME! I WANT THEM! are those chebs models?

http://www.doomsdayhq.com/res_jdoom_models.php

BTW, I use Cheb's models; haven't tried the ones by Abbs.

[Captain Red]

I clicked on quote instead of edit/delete, and for some stupid resan, didn't notice until I clicked submit, because I am a dumbass

Edit: thanks Grazza!