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LouigiVerona

Slaughterfest maps: strategies to win?

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Circle strafing and shooting rockets while collecting health like crazy!

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7 hours ago, pcorf said:

Circle strafing and shooting rockets while collecting health like crazy!


Totally, man! And hoping for no archviles! :D

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23 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Every game Slaughtermaps is are about problem solving

FTFY ;P

 

TBH, I feel like most of the games is about problem solving if you observe them from the most basics (unless it's those games that you don't need to think, but why play those?), at least from my viewpoint. That's why I like playing games because they activate my brain. Solving problems is fun in games because it doesn't really hurt if you fail (in real life maybe not so).

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20 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

TBH, I feel like most of the games is about problem solving if you observe them from the most basics (unless it's those games that you don't need to think, but why play those?), at least from my viewpoint

I mean, fair enough... Most games usually present problems or obstacles of some sort, but you can't really compare the facets of slowly picking apart a slaughter fight to for example a level in a jump and run game. Obviously I don't mean to say there is no complexity in some platformers out there, but it's a different kind of "problem delivery". The same is true for any of the Zelda games, where you're gonna have some puzzles, or you need an item before you can do this or that. Slaughtermaps are simply problem solving at different complexity than "do this obvious thing right" when you hold them up against more "standard" Doom-gameplay, because the solution to a fight isn't necessarily obvious if you haven't played a bunch of maps.

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@Nine Inch HeelsIndeed. I would say mostly Doom (particular hard maps, not only slaughter maps) is problem solving in a more pure form. Also, I would say platformers like Castlevania (not 2) is problem solving in a similar form while Zelda would be more like an exploration type of problem solving. Of course, I'm talking about you need to develop a reliable enough strategy to beat the Doom map single segmented (or deathless in a platformer). Only beating a map with saves doesn't mean you fully understand how the problem works because you may be just lucky about it.

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14 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

Of course, I'm talking about you need to develop a reliable enough strategy to beat the Doom map single segmented (or deathless in a platformer). Only beating a map with saves doesn't mean you fully understand how the problem works because you may be just lucky about it.

 

Fun fact is that this keeps going even when you can beat them saveless. I'd say the hardest maps I've beaten saveless in ~2017 (e.g. Sunlust m29, Satchap) are ones I didn't 'understand' by my 2019 standards of 'understanding'. The nuances and wrinkles keep going and going. 

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@Nine Inch Heels So, I get this and I actually tried approaching slaughter maps like this. One map that I really liked is called pizzaS.wad. These are probably the first slaughter maps I've played. I think I went with MAP02, because I loved the design.

 

And I started approaching it as a puzzle when I suddenly found a way to survive the initial onslaught. And I then spent hours and hours trying to reliably get farther and farther into the map.

 

Eventually, I stopped, because at some point in the map you open what seems to be the final room and it turns into a slaughter slaughter map. Like, all of my progress was made a mockery of, because there was just a wall of cyberdemons, archviles, revenants, etc. At this point I just gave up and decided all of this was just trolling and that I was wrong to consider this map as a puzzle.

 

I even set iddqd mode and went through the last room, and I just have no idea how can anyone survive that.

 

So, I guess my message is that when I download files like these, the comments from people are typically "what a stupid map, probably made by some teenager who filled it with monsters", and file descriptions of the wads themselves also don't seem to say how these are carefully devised puzzles for a player to solve.

 

Therefore, I sometimes think if this is just us making this shit up, when in reality these maps are just maps intended to be played with iddqd.

 

Again, I am super happy to see these maps as puzzles. I am just wondering why maps like pizzaS.wad aren't considered masterpieces of Doom puzzles, why if puzzles are a thing the definition of slaughter maps is so vague, and why even here, on Doom world, it took days for someone to say "Oh, these are actually puzzles".

Having said that, I did approach the 5 Rooms of Doom MAP27 like a puzzle and I beat it, although initially it seemed impossible. And I found definitive design signs that demonstrate the map to be a great well designed piece of work. So, I am super happy if puzzles actually are a thing. I just want to know this is not wishful thinking on my part. After all, some slaughter maps could just be slaughter maps, where you are meant to run around and shoot at things.

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4 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

Eventually, I stopped, because at some point in the map you open what seems to be the final room and it turns into a slaughter slaughter map. Like, all of my progress was made a mockery of, because there was just a wall of cyberdemons, archviles, revenants, etc. At this point I just gave up and decided all of this was just trolling and that I was wrong to consider this map as a puzzle.

Okay, look, some fights are just poorly made, and then there's also shit like "terryWADs", which are basically built to lure you in a little, and then somehow put you 6 feet under or pull some other manner of prank on you. Maps that take themselves a bit more seriously, even if still a bit tongue in cheek or purposely "rough" like for example "Italo Doom", won't do that because whoever built those made sure it's actually all beatable. I can't say much about the map you're having problems with, so this is just general gibberish.

 

Basically, combat puzzles exist, but not every slaughter fight is built like one. Some slaughter fights are basically blunt force endeavours, where it's you against the mob in a free-form-ish type of brawl that is often called "macro slaughter". Then there is also the kind of stuff that is a whole lot more about finding the correct approach, which is something you'll see in WADs like Ribbik's stardate sets. IMO, if you want slaughter that isn't "methodically bland" but also not so hard that it becomes totally inaccessible, you can try ESP, which is a megaWAD made by Time of Death, and there's also "phmlspd", which is reasonably entry-friendly. Or play rush, which is arguably one of the most well made slaughterWADs that aren't overly harsh and really varied and fun to play.

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8 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

So, I guess my message is that when I download files like these, the comments from people are typically "what a stupid map, probably made by some teenager who filled it with monsters"

These are actually the reviews I look for, I know the wad is going to be great.

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19 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

So, I get this and I actually tried approaching slaughter maps like this. One map that I really liked is called pizzaS.wad. These are probably the first slaughter maps I've played. I think I went with MAP02, because I loved the design.

 

And I started approaching it as a puzzle when I suddenly found a way to survive the initial onslaught. And I then spent hours and hours trying to reliably get farther and farther into the map.

 

Eventually, I stopped, because at some point in the map you open what seems to be the final room and it turns into a slaughter slaughter map. Like, all of my progress was made a mockery of, because there was just a wall of cyberdemons, archviles, revenants, etc. At this point I just gave up and decided all of this was just trolling and that I was wrong to consider this map as a puzzle.

 

I even set iddqd mode and went through the last room, and I just have no idea how can anyone survive that.

 

Pizza Steve is not balanced or designed well. It plays like a parody of HR2's worst parts. That map is no exception -- 11 cyberdemons, nothing better than a plasma rifle, cell balance requiring some to be cleared with bullets and shells, ample opportunities to exploit ledges so cybs can't hit you. One of the later cyberdemons is worse than a door with health. It's down a flight of stairs, so you can hold down fire with your chaingun while taking a reading break. Don't get the idea that this is typical of slaughtermaps. 

 

The part you are referring to, from what I can tell: make sure to save enough health/armor, then take advantage of the fact that the threatening monsters are 'deaf' and clear out the meat that is 'active' in the middle of the room or will block you (so this includes the four cubby barons). Then rush in and hit the far switch, and rush out. The four cyberdemons will help you infight everything. 

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On 10/22/2019 at 5:31 PM, LouigiVerona said:


Totally, man! And hoping for no archviles! :D

 

Arch Viles are great though. Even just one or two can really change the dynamic of any combat situation.

 

Also, if you want to get better at Slaughter type stuff, play Sunder. And lots of it.

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6 hours ago, rdwpa said:

 

Pizza Steve is not balanced or designed well. It plays like a parody of HR2's worst parts. That map is no exception -- 11 cyberdemons, nothing better than a plasma rifle, cell balance requiring some to be cleared with bullets and shells, ample opportunities to exploit ledges so cybs can't hit you. One of the later cyberdemons is worse than a door with health. It's down a flight of stairs, so you can hold down fire with your chaingun while taking a reading break. Don't get the idea that this is typical of slaughtermaps. 

 

The part you are referring to, from what I can tell: make sure to save enough health/armor, then take advantage of the fact that the threatening monsters are 'deaf' and clear out the meat that is 'active' in the middle of the room or will block you (so this includes the four cubby barons). Then rush in and hit the far switch, and rush out. The four cyberdemons will help you infight everything. 

 

Ah, it's a pity. I do love the design.

Would it be possible for you to record how you play that level? I spend so much time on it, but I am sure there are better ways to go through it.

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29 minutes ago, LouigiVerona said:

 

Ah, it's a pity. I do love the design.

Would it be possible for you to record how you play that level? I spend so much time on it, but I am sure there are better ways to go through it.

 

I don't want to touch that map again. It sucks.  

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Alright, so I tried Sunder.

 

I must say, this is not what I expected. Most maps to me are just unplayable. And by this I mean two things: I have no idea how to approach them, I just get killed immediately; but also I actually don't like the gameplay on offer.

 

I did go online and saw a gamer by the name of Cyberdemon531 go through these maps like knife through butter. I did not completely understand what she was doing, but I think she is an expert at how Doom enemies behave and kept moving in such a way that forced the enemies to attack each other, but not her. I even tried this a little bit with MAP01 and to my surprise I was able to make the Archvile induce some infighting and eventually killed him and the rest of the enemies in that first room. But I would not say that I enjoyed the process too much.

 

I did eventually stumble upon a map I liked: MAP07. This looks more like what I expected from a "puzzle" slaughtermap: crowds of enemies, yet you always have a way to beat them. I am now in the last room, and I have already died several times, but I am already seeing light at the end of the tunnel, and in one case I almost controlled the room.

Anyway, thanks for the reference, I will definitely continue studying Sunder, it is an interesting piece of work. And the visual design is stunning.

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45 minutes ago, LouigiVerona said:

Alright, so I tried Sunder.

 

I must say, this is not what I expected. Most maps to me are just unplayable. And by this I mean two things: I have no idea how to approach them, I just get killed immediately; but also I actually don't like the gameplay on offer.

 

I did go online and saw a gamer by the name of Cyberdemon531 go through these maps like knife through butter. I did not completely understand what she was doing, but I think she is an expert at how Doom enemies behave and kept moving in such a way that forced the enemies to attack each other, but not her. I even tried this a little bit with MAP01 and to my surprise I was able to make the Archvile induce some infighting and eventually killed him and the rest of the enemies in that first room. But I would not say that I enjoyed the process too much.

 

I did eventually stumble upon a map I liked: MAP07. This looks more like what I expected from a "puzzle" slaughtermap: crowds of enemies, yet you always have a way to beat them. I am now in the last room, and I have already died several times, but I am already seeing light at the end of the tunnel, and in one case I almost controlled the room.

Anyway, thanks for the reference, I will definitely continue studying Sunder, it is an interesting piece of work. And the visual design is stunning.

 

You are giving me hope for if I ever beat map06 that I'll smash through map07 of Sunder!

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On 10/25/2019 at 4:48 AM, LouigiVerona said:

Alright, so I tried Sunder.

 

I must say, this is not what I expected. Most maps to me are just unplayable. And by this I mean two things: I have no idea how to approach them, I just get killed immediately; but also I actually don't like the gameplay on offer.

 

There's very much a rhythm and rhyme to the maps of Sunder. The issue is you're not experienced enough yet to really "get" it, but you'll get there eventually as you put more time into it. The wad itself is excellent for training you to get into the mindset needed to play a variety of slaughter maps, and this is why I always recommend it to people not so familiar with quality slaughter. You'll get wrecked on your first few plays, but thinking about the experience you will start to think how you can better instigate infighting, what weapons may work better in certain situations, and other sorts of tactics you haven't tried previously. You'll then dive back in with new strategies in mind, and not only will your play improve as a result, but also your enjoyment of the wad. It's the kind of map set that gets better the more you improve at it.

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@amackert Makes sense! I understand what you mean.

 

Playing MAP09 now, almost done with it. I have to admire the depth of Sunder, and with this - the depth of Doom in general. This game is just phenomenal.

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