Doom II Community Lifespan

[Graf Zahl]

8 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I know we're getting into the realm of futurism and speculation, but it was all really triggered in my mind by the question "how will future historians view Doom" and moreover, "how will the general populous remember / experience Doom in the coming decades". I don't think it will ever be forgotten, and not just because of my attachment to Doom on a personal level. However, the idea that Doom modding and mapping will remain just as popular in a future where the ground-up development process of a standalone game is easier at every turn than creating a Doom wad seems very, very wishful to me. We're currently nowhere near that point - Doom is still way, way easier to comprehend and wrangle than things like Unity. For now. There's sure to come a point where that's no longer true though. 

  

 

I do not really see that happening. The main attraction of old games is that they do *not* look and feel like all this hyper-realistic modern stuff. There's a certain appeal to the flat lighting, low-res textures and such that a modern engine can never replicate, even if it eventually eclipsed Doom in modding friendliness.

 

But that simplistic approach inevitably comes with increased editing time, because if you do not have an engine to produce advanced lighting it has to be done manually in the map. So in the end there's no way to simplify this kind of mapping.

 

[dr_st]

20 hours ago, Linguica said:

 

There was a lot more childish shitposting on the Doomworld forums in the early 2000s that we are too square to tolerate anymore.

Boy, was I part of that shitposting. Looking back at some of the things I wrote back then is embarrassing. Well, I was a child back then, sort of.

 

12 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

@Doomkid I would say StarCraft is a game on par with DOOM. It's still being played. It also has this balance between simplicity, creativity and replayability. And its level editor is incredible.

Yep. StarCraft to Warcraft is like DOOM is to Wolfenstein 3D. Same basic idea but infinitely deeper and more varied gameplay.

 

12 hours ago, Curunir said:

That's literally what the Ion Fury devs said when I brought up the matter with even mapster32 being very unwieldy compared to even original Doom Builder. The justification is always "Well, it sure takes time, and yeah, we know - A LOT OF TIME, but once you get to know what you're doing, it's a VERY powerful editor!" :D

Yes ,well. Send them to build some DOOM levels using DETH. Or better yet DEU+BSP. Maybe this will get them to appreciate the true power of DOOM editing. :)

 

[Graf Zahl]

12 hours ago, Curunir said:

 

That's literally what the Ion Fury devs said when I brought up the matter with even mapster32 being very unwieldy compared to even original Doom Builder. The justification is always "Well, it sure takes time, and yeah, we know - A LOT OF TIME, but once you get to know what you're doing, it's a VERY powerful editor!" :D

 

Here's a thought I just had:

You could actually replace "mapster32" with "vim" and say exactly the same thing about text editors. Yes, once you master it it may be fast to work with, but in the end I really prefer something more user friendly... ;)

 

 

[ETTiNGRiNDER]

@Doomkid

I think you're overlooking some things in regard to the "coolness" factor of working with something old, and of the motivation of fandom for the original game, specifically.  As far as I can tell, Super Mario Maker hasn't killed ROM-hacking for the NES/SNES Mario games (even if Nintendo probably wishes it would).  Or closer to home as it were, the fact that mapping "vanilla Doom" is still a thing and we have people doing things like seeing how close Doom 4 can be recreated using DeHackEd.  I know I like the thought that I can put my WAD on a DOS machine and run it, even if that's a useless feature to 99% of people, likewise for NES hacks that can be loaded on an Everdrive or whatever vs a PC game that just "looks NES", not that I've actual gotten deep into making any ROM hacks as yet.  Yes, the people who want to just casually make something will probably head for the easier option and there might be fewer TCs attempted, and fewer new people taking an interest in designing stuff, but don't underestimate the (possibly perverse) fascination with making something truly oldschool even if it's harder to do. The community might be reduced to something more die-hard like the Wolfenstein 3-D or Commander Keen modders, but I don't think it would completely vanish, or at least, it'd be slow to do so.

 

WRT the Warcraft II stuff, I'm curious what you'd nominate to be the Doom/Mario 3 of RTS games.  As to the point about whether it could inspire as much obsession, maybe there's a question of numbers (there's probably something to be said for Doom having a "critical mass" where the number of people doing stuff with it encourages more people to do stuff with it), but here's a still surviving site of someone who was clearly pretty into it with making maps and stuff.

[LouigiVerona]

@ETTiNGRiNDER This might be due to a difference between FPS and RTS games in general. Doom is easier to pick up and play than, say, StarCraft of Warcraft. Additionally, if you are bad at Doom, you can still enjoy it. An RTS, on the other hand, is a little closer to a board game. If you are losing - that's it, you have to start the whole thing over.

 

I am sure all of us who played RTS games remember situations where we would spend an hour developing our colony, only to then be wiped out in 2 minutes by a powerful opponent. And you feel you've just wasted an hour. No such thing with Doom.

 

So, I think gameplay-wise Doom and Warcraft/StarCraft are apples and oranges.

[dr_st]

1 hour ago, LouigiVerona said:

I am sure all of us who played RTS games remember situations where we would spend an hour developing our colony, only to then be wiped out in 2 minutes by a powerful opponent. And you feel you've just wasted an hour. No such thing with Doom.

Great point and valid for single-player and multi-player alike.

[Dubbag]

IT WILL LAST FOREVER! 3 things will survive the end of time. Roaches, Keith Richards and Doom!