What's something about Doom that you absolutely hate?

[Super Jamie]

Reaper978 said:

Is this where you can't take any damage?

Yeah, Reality is a demo style where you take 0 damage, and can't use Plasma Rifle or BFG. There are a few references to it on Speed Demos Archive, usually with the extra descriptive "Also Reality!"

[Grazza]

Super Jamie said:

Also, will -complevel 2 allow the Arachno telefragging in PrBoom?

Only if you made it map30. -complevel 2 tells the program to behave like doom2.exe, and in vanilla, monster telefrags (of other monsters or of the player) are only possible when the map number is 30.

But if people are going to record on this, a version with an actual exit would be nice.

The funny thing of course is that the map is not even hard. I guess that's meant to be the joke? I was disappointed that I wasn't instantly surrounded by a dozen demons the moment I picked up the RL. People just don't made annoying traps like they used to in the old days. :p

[printz]

Grazza said:

Only if you made it map30.

Interesting. Are there MAP30 replacements with horror themes that rely on monster's telefragging?

Or any MAP30 replacements with consistent teleport ambushes. Not only you become wary of spawn points, you also see them accidentally gib each other, kind of like Quake.

[Grazza]

I'm pretty sure that this behaviour is one reason why most of the classic megawads have a fairly short map30. Randomly being telefragged can dent a player's enthusiasm for a map, and it is a bit restrictive to design a complex map where the player will never be near a monster's teleport destination.

I can't think of any maps that use this as a very deliberate feature, though in Kama Sutra map30, it helps the player cut the number of cyberdemons by half. And of course in Doom2 map30 itself, if you just hide and wait a few minutes, then you can get a very high kill percentage.

Of course, Quake's telefragging works in reverse, which changes the possibilities very considerably.

[Erik]

Making the big map30s for both Scythe and Scythe 2 was a pain because of the monster telefrag. If you have teleporting monsters you have to make sure both the player and (preferrably) other monsters stay clear of the teleport spots. In Scythe map30 however there is one arch-vile that intentionally teleports close to the player, giving him a slim chance of a telefrag.

[Tuthill351]

everything you just listed is what makes the game challenging, i kinda thought that was the point?

[bimlanders]

What I hate about Doom: Thy Flesh Consumed. I remember how stoked I was to learn about a fourth ep. for the original Doom and every time I play it, I get massively owned. It seems like the easy baddies do even more damage, and I don't know what the hell is wrong with me! I can beat Doom 2 (save for the final stage) with relative ease on the UV setting.

To the original post: those things you mentioned, other than the rocket launcher troubles, are what make the game challenging and rewarding when you do well. I love owning those higher end monsters in Doom 2. The Revenants can be rendered helpless simply by firing the chaingun at them from fairly close range. They just stand there until death! Pain Elementals can ruin your day, but try rushing around the lost souls while firing the plasma rifle at point blank at them and kill them in a hurry. A more experienced player should be able to kill them with the db shotgun. The Hell Knights are EASY! They are an easy target and die quickly.

[Gez]

bimlanders said:

Pain Elementals can ruin your day, but try rushing around the lost souls while firing the plasma rifle at point blank at them and kill them in a hurry.

If they are within rushing distance, and you don't have too many other enemies to worry about, try the chainsaw or even the fist. Since lost souls are not normal projectiles but monsters, if they don't have enough room to be spawned, they just don't appear. (While projectiles, on the other hand, explode immediately inflicting damage to the actor that blocked them.) So if you hug a pain elemental, it's rendered totally harmless.

[40oz]

Grazza said:

The funny thing of course is that the map is not even hard. I guess that's meant to be the joke?

I only expected people to make a one-time playthrough, so if it was absolutely too hard people wouldn't play through the whole thing. If you notice I made the entire map using reaper's list one by one. with the exception of a few I didn't know how to implement.

[Super Jamie]

bimlanders said:

Thy Flesh Consumed. I remember how stoked I was to learn about a fourth ep. for the original Doom and every time I play it, I get massively owned. It seems like the easy baddies do even more damage, and I don't know what the hell is wrong with me!

Ultimate Doom and the two Final Dooms were intended to be hard. Like really hard, to push the player skill level. It's no fun if they just released the same easy thing over and over again. Difficult wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta continue this tradition. Even playing them on skill 2 is not easy.

[Reaper978]

Interestingly, I just tried changing the map in mlyp.wad from map01 to map30, but the telefrag still didn't work.

What I hate about Doom: Thy Flesh Consumed. I remember how stoked I was to learn about a fourth ep. for the original Doom and every time I play it, I get massively owned. It seems like the easy baddies do even more damage, and I don't know what the hell is wrong with me! I can beat Doom 2 (save for the final stage) with relative ease on the UV setting.

I know what you mean. Thy Flesh Consumed on HMP seems more than twice as difficult as any of the previous three episodes on UV. It makes Doom 2 on UV look like child's play. Maybe I'm just a newb or something, but those are some brutal maps. I can't get past level two.

[Super Jamie]

Were you using -complevel 2 for telefrags?

Honestly you're not missing much, E4M1 and E4M2 are the only ones really worth playing anyway, the rest of the episode is very forgettable. Especially the last level, which is probably the easiest of the whole episode.

[bimlanders]

Super Jamie said:

Ultimate Doom and the two Final Dooms were intended to be hard. Like really hard, to push the player skill level. It's no fun if they just released the same easy thing over and over again. Difficult wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta continue this tradition. Even playing them on skill 2 is not easy.

I'm most of the way through TNT from Final Doom and it's at least fair. I can get my needed ammo and health. This is not an exact scenario from a specific map, but I hate shit like this: Cyberdemon appears on first map of a megawad and I have about thirty shots from my plasma, and maybe about five rockets. What the hell am I supposed to do? Great mapping is finding that middle ground between complete frustration/unfairness and challenging and FUN.

[Super Jamie]

Different players have different skill levels too. People have done UV Max for MAP01 of HR2 for example. Two Archviles? It would take me many goes to even pass it.

Also MAP30 and complevel 2 doesn't work either. I don't think the telefrag trick actually works, at least not in PrBoom, though the concept is funny.

[myk]

Gez said:
So if you hug a pain elemental, it's rendered totally harmless.

Aw... see, that shows all they need is love :)

Super Jamie said:
Honestly you're not missing much, E4M1 and E4M2 are the only ones really worth playing anyway, the rest of the episode is very forgettable. Especially the last level, which is probably the easiest of the whole episode.

Given those are the ones that scare players off, he might actually enjoy the rest more, if he gets past the first couple. I think it's a decent episode, the only (minor) critique I'd have for it is that it was silly to insert it between DOOM and DOOM II like that, but one can just think of it as "a set of levels" and it's all good. It's probably the most fun for coop play, due to its difficulty and because it lends well to coordination between two players in many levels.

[Chrispaks]

I can't understand what the fuck Doom II Map 21 was about. The design was so shitty. I made better maps when I started off.

[eargosedown]

Torr Samaho said:

this was a good thread.

the pictures on page 2 make me laugh every time.

This one is so accurate in relation to my first time ever playing nightmare.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/6885/uvvsnm6sa.gif

[GreyGhost]

Super Jamie said:

I don't think the telefrag trick actually works, at least not in PrBoom, though the concept is funny.

It's a compatibility option that's disabled by default.

[Lantern Jaw]

Reaper978 said:

-Accidentally backing off a ledge right when you fire a rocket and pwning yourself.

You have to do this in order to get the secret level on Ep3 don't you? So why is it a bad thing? Why don't you just fuck off and play something else?

Also I can't stand peaople who use "pwn" ...it's a bullshit word made up by 2 year olds.

[DuckReconMajor]

Lantern Jaw said:

You have to do this in order to get the secret level on Ep3 don't you? So why is it a bad thing? Why don't you just fuck off and play something else?

Also I can't stand peaople who use "pwn" ...it's a bullshit word made up by 2 year olds.

lol u mad

He's talking about when autoaim aims down at an enemy below a ledge you're standing on, but since you've backed up, the rocket hits the floor.

[Lantern Jaw]

Oh, ...oh right. Thanks :)

[Reaper978]

Couple things:

The Hell Knights are EASY! They are an easy target and die quickly.

Yeah, most of the time. But here's the thing - they are a weaker enemy than the Baron, yet they throw Baron fireballs. That doesn't make sense to me. 40 hp gone from one little hellknight? The damage of the Baron throwing his mighty fireballs makes sense, but having the hellknight throw the same fireball is kind of odd. Otherwise I don't have any problems here, the Baron is a completely kickass enemy, so having other monsters modeled after him is cool too.

Why don't you just fuck off and play something else?

Easy bro, I like doom. Just sometimes I get frustrated. I know the original post was naggy and lame, but sometimes I have these moments. I apologize (in a completely non-sarcastic way).

Also I can't stand peaople who use "pwn" ...it's a bullshit word made up by 2 year olds.

Well yes, but I don't mean it seriously. It's such a ridiculous term I find myself using it as a satire of itself, but that doesn't necessarily come through in plain written text.

He's talking about when autoaim aims down at an enemy below a ledge you're standing on, but since you've backed up, the rocket hits the floor.

Actually, I mean when you're on top of a tall platform and you back off while you're still facing toward the center of the platform, thus the side of the platform is in your face right when you fire the rocket. It's hard to explain in words... I've done it a few times. It's annoying. Let me see if I can draw it:

"-O" = you facing to the left

-O
||||
||||

||||-O
||||

||||<-O "fires rocket at the wall"
||||

||||
|||| ...x

[DuckReconMajor]

Reaper978 said:

Actually, I mean when you're on top of a tall platform and you back off while you're still facing toward the center of the platform, thus the side of the platform is in your face right when you fire the rocket. It's hard to explain in words... I've done it a few times. It's annoying. Let me see if I can draw it:

Oh, ok. Well, I'm sorry, Lantern Jaw. You still got pretty mad though, hehe.

[Reaper978]

I mean when you do this by accident, like you're firing rockets at enemies and you accidentally back off.

And I've stated earlier that I know the rocket problems are mostly my own fault.

[Grazza]

Lantern Jaw said:

You have to do this in order to get the secret level on Ep3 don't you?

No. Common Doom myth #26. There are at least two other ways.

GreyGhost said:

It's a compatibility option that's disabled by default.

But he was said that he was trying it with -complevel 2, which forces all Doom2.exe compatibility settings. So presumably he meant that he had tested the set-up, and for some reason it didn't wotk - i.e. the teleport didn't arrive at the right location, or something like that. Or else he had failed to set the intended complevel somehow.

[myk]

Reaper978 said:
But here's the thing - they are a weaker enemy than the Baron, yet they throw Baron fireballs. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think it does:

They included it because they felt the baron of hell had too many hit points for the damage it inflicts, to use often enough in the levels. Since DOOM II is an expansion of DOOM and makes no changes to it other than additions, they added a new version of it with fewer hit points to solve this.

As for it shooting the same green fireball, it's basically the same monster. They even behave this way due to a special case where they are treated as the same type, thus not hurting each other, which isn't related to the type of missile assigned to them. If you hack either to use another missile, they still won't hurt each other. It's just a less experienced and tough version of the baron, from an "ingame world" perspective. Not weaker physically, but with less battle prowess.

Consider, additionally, that the mancubus has only 100 hit points more yet hurls various balls that inflict that amount of damage. Other new DOOM II monsters (arachnotron, revenant and arch-vile) also provide heavy artillery, so it wouldn't have made sense to leave the hell knight behind. Less damage would also have implied more or less the same damage as the cacodemon, and would have made it less threatening than the caco, since the latter can fly. If you compare the two monsters, one has the flying ability, the other a better attack. Monsters have to complement each other with relevant differences to make sense in the game.

In DOOM II the hell knight turns out to be the basic middle-powered monster. It has a regular attack type and is tough but has an amount of hit points that can be reduced quickly with the arsenal (3 SSG shots or rockets). Various other monsters among the mean have similar hit points, either somewhat less or more, but also additional abilities (tracking missile, rapid fire rate, flight, and so on.) It plays an important role as a regular elite trooper in the armies of hell and is like the imp for when you are well equipped.

[GreyGhost]

Grazza said:

But he was said that he was trying it with -complevel 2, which forces all Doom2.exe compatibility settings.

<facepalms> Where did I leave my flagellum?

[Super Jamie]

I agree with myk. Constant Imp battles get boring fast, but sometimes you want something tougher. Not as tough or scary as a Baron, more compact than a Manc or Caco, and not as unfair as a Revenant or Archvile. I actually think Hell Knights are one of the best additions from Doom 2, they fill a very big gap one encounters when making maps for doom.wad

[Kyka]

Super Jamie said:

I agree with myk. Constant Imp battles get boring fast, but sometimes you want something tougher. Not as tough or scary as a Baron, more compact than a Manc or Caco, and not as unfair as a Revenant or Archvile. I actually think Hell Knights are one of the best additions from Doom 2, they fill a very big gap one encounters when making maps for doom.wad

Agree with all of these points.

Though they could have made a new monster that fitted all these requirements just as well imo. I am sure there are good commercial reasons why they went with the hell knight instead of making a whole new monster. But I always think that the hell knight is just a cheap recolour.

[Maes]

Opportunistic hits by revenant rockets that do maximum damage (80 HP, unarmored). Happens way too often on ZDoom for some reason...probably a fucked up RNG.