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zen4040

I REALLY hate key and secret hunting

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pretty sure most of you can probably relate somewhat but recently it's starting to hurt in my head. especially in doom 2016, all the navigating which sort of even obligatory since, they're needed to properly upgrade doomguy for the later levels. I just alt4 out of the game when this happens.

any of you ever felt that?

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It sounds like you want more linear maps. There are some out there, although most wads do have some degree of key hunting. I’ve quit wads because I had no clue where to go, although the blame usually lies with me not being patient enough, not the author.

 

I can’t think of any super linear maps off the top of my head.. but most of the popular wads out there are pretty accessible even to those who aren’t great at key hunts.

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Hey, I hate key and secret hunting too. I don't play the modern doom games (My computer is a potato) but I hate secret hunting in wads. Key hunting is fine though as long as the map didn't go overboard. And as @Doomkid said, it's more my problem rather than the map's problem. Unless the key I needed to progress was in a secret. Then the map can go to hell.

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54 minutes ago, ([zen3001]) said:

pretty sure most of you can probably relate somewhat but recently it's starting to hurt in my head. especially in doom 2016, all the navigating which sort of even obligatory since, they're needed to properly upgrade doomguy for the later levels. I just alt4 out of the game when this happens.

any of you ever felt that?

I don't alt4. I use IDKFA and keep going

oh wait nvm you're talking about modern doom

Yeah I rarely even touch the campain, I mean it's kinda fun but tbh I never know where to go, I'm always getting lost, and I know some people might use the automap but it does NOT help me as much as classic automap did. I just can't figure it out so whenever I load the new doom I just automatically change to snapmap mode since the snapmaps I've played are way more simple and easy to figure out, and honestly unlike campaign you don't have to beat a certain level to be able to play the next, if you can't get a snapmap beaten you just gotta find a new snapmap.

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Your map has 6 keys? Well, I only need 3. Escape, Enter, and Y. 

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Doom was designed to be an semi-open world where you had to find the means that allow you to escape this hellish place, a semi-open world that were cut in to levels (this is mere technological limitations of that time period), not just mindlessly running in a linear corridor with huge flashing arrows pointing where to go, at least according to what doom devs been commenting out. Searching for keys and secrets requires a bit of thinking and self-awareness, something that a lot of people are lacking nowadays.

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3 hours ago, Demon of the Well said:

No.

This is probably the shortest post that has ever been made or will ever be made by DotW.

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5 hours ago, ([zen3001]) said:

pretty sure most of you can probably relate somewhat but recently it's starting to hurt in my head. especially in doom 2016, all the navigating which sort of even obligatory since, they're needed to properly upgrade doomguy for the later levels. I just alt4 out of the game when this happens.

 

 

Then the Doom franchise is not for you.

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I would've expected to see this thread made by TSC.

 

Anyway, I actually do hate secret hunting too, key hunting not really. If there is one thing I actually like at modern games is the fact that they killed secrets almost entirely. It had a place in those games, yes, but I never found it particularly fun, and it's all the more aggravating when they become mandatory or semi-mandatory.

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Secrets are for weak players who cannot beat a level as it is, and need to go wall humping to get the extra health or ammo or some whiz bang powerup. Anybody with any pride ignores such pandering out of principle.  Goodies are meant to be earned.

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I like exploration. Don't care for Wolfenstein-style secrets where the only way to find them is to unf at all the walls, but when there are some clues and maybe a little puzzle, or you know things like noticing a little ledge that seems to go around the corner, or perhaps that those rocky cliffs can actually be climbed with a few strafe-run jumps, that's cool.

 

What I don't care much about is arena fights. Enter a room, door closes behind you, ten thousand imps suddenly appear all around you, ten minutes later the door opens again. Next room, same thing.

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I miss(ed) the 90s... It was all about hiding mandatory progression behind indistinguishable walls in a haphazardly textured dungeon-cum-maze, and we were (probably) happy!

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Hallo,

imho its one of the main parts of the game tbo. DooM is all about Demon-slaying ... (intense Brain-storming!) ... ehm and, that's for sure, key and secret hunting! Check out this link above from ZeroTheEro, if even that is not yours you've may choosen the wrong game.

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10 hours ago, Deⓧiaz said:

 

Then the Doom franchise is not for you.

but I've been playing it for so long now

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I really enjoy exploration, searching for keys and stuff, and looking for the secrets in a map.

 

I get annoyed if the way back to earlier parts of a level become inaccessible when all the secrets aren't discovered or I have some ammo / health I was saving and now the way is blocked. heh.

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Poorly designed secrets and key hunts are just one of the risks that come with custom user content, you never know what you're going to get until you try it. It's fine to dislike certain gameplay elements, thankfully there are tons of different maps out there to cater to different tastes.

 

The Doom community in general dislikes obscure progress and secrets that don't have some kind of hint. Most puzzle heavy maps will say PUZZLE MAP in the text file or whatever, but if a wild logic gate appears then it's easy enough to exit the game and download something else.

 

Key doors and secrets can add a lot to the playable space when done right, backtracking to get to a key door reinforces the layout and makes the player think about the map. Secrets should never be necessary to beat the level, and when the same level of attention is paid to secret areas as it is the rest of the map, it can turn a good level into one that's even bettter. Not only powerups but secrets can also provide alternate routes through the map, again reinforcing layout. I've seen my fair share of maps where the secrets feel tacked on, like it's just a square room with a soulsphere or whatever. Variation in design for Doom maps is readily available from the simple to the complex, and there's maps out there for any audience. At the end of the day if you don't like rotating blocks then Tetris might not be the game for you, if you catch my drift.

 

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18 minutes ago, SteelPH said:

If that's giving you trouble, don't ever play Hexen.

did play through the first 2 episodes a year ago or something

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20 minutes ago, SteelPH said:

If that's giving you trouble, don't ever play Hexen.

 

Hexen is nowhere near as bad in terms of puzzles as some people love making it be, this coming from someone who hates annoying puzzle maps no less.

 

Hexen pales in comparison to some of the more cryptic shit the community has pumped out over the years, some much worse than the much reviled Eternal Doom too.

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19 hours ago, ([zen3001]) said:

pretty sure most of you can probably relate somewhat but recently it's starting to hurt in my head. especially in doom 2016, all the navigating which sort of even obligatory since, they're needed to properly upgrade doomguy for the later levels. I just alt4 out of the game when this happens.

any of you ever felt that?

This mindset is what disappoints me. Some people just don't want to think when playing. And citing Doom 2016? It has more linearity than Doom and Doom 2. 

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12 minutes ago, seed said:

Hexen is nowhere near as bad in terms of puzzles as some people love making it be, this coming from someone who hates annoying puzzle maps no less.

This, but even as a Hexen fan I have to admit that there are a few segments that fit the complaints and people probably extrapolate their worst experiences to encompass the whole game.  Castle of Grief (the specific map, not the hub named for it) is legitimately a tedious hunt for a bunch of tucked-to-the-side switches.  Dungeons has both a mandatory secret and a mandatory "jump down a hole that would normally kill you".  Sump in Deathkings has that stupid water maze segment that feels like someone said "hey let's throw in the most tedious and annoying segment we can possibly imagine, that would be a great idea".  I once said that was like something out of a Witchaven map, but you know what, that's actually an insult to the Witchaven map designers, even their maze segments weren't that bad.  The game in general while it had a few legitimate puzzles (usually just matching games and such, though) had this odd way of calling finding any major switch part of a "puzzle" regardless of whether you really had to solve anything beyond getting there in the first place.

 

As to the thread topic at large, few things remind me of how disconnected I am from modern gaming than to watch a video of some modern gamer playing Doom as a retro perspective thing and saying something to the effect of "I wonder when designers finally realized that keys and locked doors are bad game design".  Say what now?

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13 minutes ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

As to the thread topic at large, few things remind me of how disconnected I am from modern gaming than to watch a video of some modern gamer playing Doom as a retro perspective thing and saying something to the effect of "I wonder when designers finally realized that keys and locked doors are bad game design".  Say what now?

 

 

FPS and rail shooters are, over time, converging on a common point!?!?! this does not compute :o

 

It's an interesting time for games, for every giant AAA company that turns out the same fare each release, there are 10 indie games trying something new with some gaining huge popularity out of nowhere with next to nothing in terms of marketing budget. It's always been like that but over time it gets easier for individuals or small groups to make games. The mammoths would do well to take a lesson from the small fish, which actually seems like it's happening slowly, as it usually goes.

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