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ImpieEyez95

D4V + D 2016 Campaign?

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Has anyone tried recreating (to the best of the ability with GZdoom) the campaign from DOOM (2016)? It would be superb to play through the campaign on classic doom... 

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Wouldn't you want a pack meant for D4V to be vanilla compatible, since that's the entire point of D4V?

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It's definitely crossed my mind. I agree, if you wanted to be as faithful as possible you'd want to be using UDMF for 3D sectors, line portals, full skyboxes, and the likes. Or, you could just make simple homages and keep things vanilla compatible as Egg Boy mentioned, though I feel like the majority of the maps from 2016 would wind up becoming so disfigured and over-simplified in an attempt to keep them vanilla compatible that they'd likely be unrecognizable (or at very least, they'd lose the magic of their former selves (I'm not even sure really how you'd tackle the Argent Tower in vanilla)).

 

It would be a tremendous amount of work. Considering the fact that the level design is regarded as one of the weaker points of D2016, it certainly begs the question as to whether the sheer amount of time and energy to do this would be worth it in the end, beyond the novelty of it.   

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I disagree. I would like to see a vanilla rendition of Doom 2016 levels. Despite the map limitations I think it would be viable and a fun experience. Vanilla maps also can be impressive when you get used to the VPOs and HOMs limits.

Edited by Noiser

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I think it should be done. Of course, not accurate to the real maps, but try to feature the more memorable scenery and battles from the original maps, as well as similar layout for the ones that are mostly indoors.

 

Just personal opinion but it would be kickass to see something like this to go with D4V, D4T and D4D.

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Vanilla interpretation of Doom 2016 levels will look too dull. D4T and D4D are not vanilla mods, and only for D4V is not worth making additional restrictions.

For the best results need to make the most of GZDoom's capabilities.

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Just now, Doomenator said:

Vanilla interpretation of Doom 2016 levels will look too dull. D4T and D4D are not vanilla mods, and only for D4V is not worth making additional restrictions.

For the best results need to make the most of GZDoom's capabilities.

Well the thread's title specifically mentions D4V. Besides, a 100% accurate recreation would be impressive, but a bit boring. In that case, just go play Doom 4. A vanilla interpretation of Doom 2016 would be pretty refreshing. Especially on maps with multiple levels, compromises will have to be made. Which will make for layouts that are reminiscent of the modern game, while still adhering to the classics. Sounds fun to me.

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1 hour ago, Egg Boy said:

In that case, just go play Doom 4.

Thanks for the advice but I've already played Doom 4. With the same success, we can advise all fans of vanilla maps play standard Doom. Today, Doom has such popularity due to its development and modern ports. I am sure without the capabilities of modern ports, you will not be able to do something similar to Doom 2016. And the vanilla version of the maps will look like a downgrade. I do not remember that I had a desire to replay vanilla maps (except for iwads+mods or multiplayer+mods). Vanilla maps is a one-time option. Hundreds of good mods, iwads and oblige generator completely to cover my need for vanilla maps.

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1 hour ago, Doomenator said:

Thanks for the advice but I've already played Doom 4. With the same success, we can advise all fans of vanilla maps play standard Doom.

That's, er... not how it works. You see, vanilla is a format, not a highly specific set of gameplay tropes and level design like what you're suggesting here. To completely emulate Doom 2016, is to essentially demake the game a "downgrade" if you will. When you play a vanilla Megawad, you're playing a whole new set of levels, completely new content. Scythe, Back to Saturn X, Plutonia 2, Momento Mori, Doom The Way Id Did, each unique in their music, texture set, and level design. Similarly, a set based off of Doom 2016's level design would HAVE to be unique if it were to be done in vanilla, forcing the author to come up with unique ways to not only get around the limits of the engine but also personalize the map to their specific style. It would be more an adaptation than an emulation.

 

I also wanted to note that Oblige is in no way a replacement for actual user made content. Its an impressive thing, for sure, but it can't hold a candle to anything from BTSX E1.

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6 hours ago, Doomenator said:

Vanilla interpretation of Doom 2016 levels will look too dull. D4T and D4D are not vanilla mods, and only for D4V is not worth making additional restrictions.

For the best results need to make the most of GZDoom's capabilities.

It's quite the contrary. Vanilla maps works on everything, GZDoom maps are limited to this port (and some of them doesn't even run on my pc anymore). If you make D4V maps exclusive for GZDoom you may alienate me and other low-end users.

Also: Back to Saturn X, Suspended in Dusk, Base Ganymede, No End In Sight, Plutonia 2, TNT Revilution, Epic 2 are all fantastic vanilla maps. 

The process to reimaginate Doom 2016 on a simpler format (vanilla or not) is a very creative exercise imo, much more interesting than trying to make it exactly like Doom 2016 with the most modern features, which could be a bit redundant. Just my two cents anyway.

EDIT: If you think this is the best approach, go ahead though. I would like to see it no matter the format.

Edited by Noiser

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6 minutes ago, Noiser said:

It's quite the contrary. Vanilla maps works with everything, GZDoom maps are limited to that port (and some of them doesn't even run on my pc anymore). If you make D4V maps exclusive for GZDoom you may alienate me and other low-end users.

Also: Back to Saturn X, Suspended in Dusk, Base Ganymede, No End In Sight, Plutonia 2, TNT Revilution, Epic 2 are all fantastic vanilla maps. 

The process to reimaginate Doom 2016 on vanilla can be a very creative exercise imo, much more interesting than trying to make it exactly like Doom 2016 using the most modern features, which would be a bit redundant. Just my two cents anyway.

Spoiler

Doom 64 for Doom 2 is quite a good example also.

 

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3 hours ago, Egg Boy said:

You see, vanilla is a format, not a highly specific set of gameplay tropes and level design like what you're suggesting here.

I have a set of mods for vanilla: HD textures, HD sprites, HQ music, HQ sounds, some HQ effects etc. All maps that doesn't fit into this set is not quite vanilla for me.

And I think D4T>>D4V. About the same difference in maps.

 

2 hours ago, Noiser said:

It's quite the contrary. Vanilla maps works with everything, GZDoom maps are limited to that port (and some of them doesn't even run on my pc anymore). If you make D4V maps exclusive for GZDoom you may alienate me and other low-end users.

That's clear, but you replace the concept of "quality" with the concept of "quantity".

 

I see you have a very original approach to creativity by limiting the format and features. In addition, even all the features of GZDoom will not be enough to recreate Doom 2016 adequately. We can hope for a miracle, but I'm sure the vanilla format is not suitable for mapping Doom 2016 and I will be one of those who will say that it looks quite dull.

 

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1 hour ago, Doomenator said:

I have a set of mods for vanilla: HD textures, HD sprites, HQ music, HQ sounds, some HQ effects etc. All maps that doesn't fit into this set is not quite vanilla for me.

And I think D4T>>D4V. About the same difference in maps.

 

I see you have a very original approach to creativity by limiting the format and features. In addition, even all the features of GZDoom will not be enough to recreate Doom 2016 adequately. We can hope for a miracle, but I'm sure the vanilla format is not suitable for mapping Doom 2016 and I will be one of those who will say that it looks quite dull.

Apparently you keep misinterpreting what we mean, we don't want a perfect recreation of D4, but a reimagination containing stuff like the same story, similar landmarks sometimes, etc. Because you are technically right, yes, a D4 recreation that's as close as it can be would be far too boring and dull, but we are looking for something that tries to mold the gameplay and a some of the structure into something more classic.

 

And yeah you are talking about your opinion, not about our opinion. If you really don't like it, just don't play it, that's all there is to it.

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1 hour ago, Doomenator said:

I see you have a very original approach to creativity by limiting the format and features.

Being tasked with accomplishing as much as possible under certain limits breeds creativity. And doing it in GZDoom is pointless for exactly this reason: you can pretty much recreate the entire thing there beat for beat, the only difference would be the graphics and where's the fun in that? And what's the accomplishment in that? I mean, sure, it requires good knowledge of the mapping program, but it's not what I'd call impressive. There's no challenge or creativity involved, just competence. Look at something like D64iD2. That is one mighty impressive thing, since preserving as much of D64 as possible while keeping it vanilla-compatible was no small feat.

And besides not everyone plays GZDoom. Some people prefer other source ports. D4V's main appeal is being as extensive as it is while also being vanilla-compatible (which couldn't be accomplished without some creative tricks) and working under most source ports. The same principle is proposed for the mappack: reimagining D4 maps under vanilla limits. Doing that while still having exciting map design is quite a creative excercise.

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2 hours ago, -TDRR- said:

And yeah you are talking about your opinion, not about our opinion. If you really don't like it, just don't play it, that's all there is to it.

Hey, I just say it would be preferable for me to use a more advanced format.  Besides, I can't force anyone, and I'll content what happen in the end. But you're telling me not to play something that doesn't exist yet. Calm down. And yeah, I'm always talking about my opinion. 

 

1 hour ago, Allard said:

Being tasked with accomplishing as much as possible under certain limits breeds creativity.

Yes, but the result is not always of the proper quality. And still the best mods are made on GZDoom. I understand that D4V for vanilla format is a great mod, but for me it is not of any interest (except for the collection). Apparently the main reason is that on this forum GZDoom is not a priority port. So this reaction. )

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13 minutes ago, Doomenator said:

Yes, but the result is not always of the proper quality.

Quality is subjective. What's better a souped-up limit-destroying map that recreates a Doom 4 level to a "T" but isn't any notable on its own or a fun vanilla map that includes some of the more memorable set pieces from said level? I say, as an iterative work, the latter bears more interest.

16 minutes ago, Doomenator said:

And still the best mods are made on GZDoom.

The most advanced and gameplay-redefining mods are made on GZDoom. As for them being the best, that is a matter of opinion.

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1 hour ago, Allard said:

Quality is subjective... As for them being the best, that is a matter of opinion.

Everything that is subjective is always a matter of opinion. But if you translate the quality into the subjective plane then any discussion about what is better or worse becomes meaningless. :D

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3 hours ago, Doomenator said:

I have a set of mods for vanilla: HD textures, HD sprites, HQ music, HQ sounds, some HQ effects etc. All maps that doesn't fit into this set is not quite vanilla for me.

Well, fortunately, you don't define what a vanilla map is. A vanilla map is simply one that adheres to the limits of the vanilla engine. Dehacked, and custom textures, etc. are all completely vanilla. By your logic, D4V isn't vanilla, even though its in the name. Anyway, this conversation is quite tiring and isn't really going anywhere. So with that, you're free to make the GZDOOM, enhanced lighting, slope covered, HD textured, 3d floor using, voxel utilizing Doom 4 mapset of your dreams.

 

(btw have you ever heard of the phrase "sometimes less is more" because the sentence above just screams excess, and frankly sounds like a mess [haha, that rhymed])

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On 1/11/2020 at 2:34 PM, Doomenator said:

That's clear, but you replace the concept of "quality" with the concept of "quantity".

If you think the maps I listed here are not quality-wise, there's not much else I can say.

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to Doom 2016-inspired maps on UDMF format, I just don't think it's the most interesting way to do it. That's it.

Edited by Noiser

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1 hour ago, Egg Boy said:

Well, fortunately, you don't define what a vanilla map is. A vanilla map is simply one that adheres to the limits of the vanilla engine. Dehacked, and custom textures, etc. are all completely vanilla. By your logic, D4V isn't vanilla, even though its in the name. Anyway, this conversation is quite tiring and isn't really going anywhere. So with that, you're free to make the GZDOOM, enhanced lighting, slope covered, HD textured, 3d floor using, voxel utilizing Doom 4 mapset of your dreams.

I understand what a vanilla map is. I also understand that in this format, you can make a completely different game. Maybe you won't find fault with inaccurate definitions. Because it's not even about that. Re-read the topic completely so that I do not have to explain something to you again.

 

1 hour ago, Noiser said:

If you think the maps I listed here are not quality-wise, there's not much I can say.

Actually, I didn't say anything about these maps. But if you compare formats, Yes. Although if we consider quality from a subjective point of view, even I do not know what to say. We must first define the concept of "quality". :D

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Something i thought of (that could be fitting for this thread) is some ideas for recreating 2016/Eternal enemy designs in classic Doom, mostly to fit the art style and even add in some creative touches.

 

* Hell Razer: Could be a "rocky" looking Imp with some crown and a "volcano" theme to it. (alternatively, could be a cyber Imp with a powerfull chaingun/laser cannon)

* Cyber Mancubus: His armor could be similar to a classic Revenant's (probably colored green or dark grey) he could wear a classic armor bonus helmet or something similar. I like to imagine that when he dies, his armor breaks and is represented with armor pick ups showing up.

* Possessed Soldiers: A class of Plasma rifle zombies (armor either white or blue): the gun is fused with one arm while the front/stomach area shows signs of "flesh" fusing with the armor. They could have the classic Doomguy helmet but broken so you can see one or two red eyes.

* Possessed Engineers: Whatever a classic engineer would look like in old Doom.

* Summoners: I always imagined that they look like "fallen"/corrupted angels, so maybe something about it could influence a design.

* Hell Guards: Knowing how 2016 "decybered" the Mancubus: An actual metal mech but made by Hell (with pentagram, spikes, horns, chains, flesh etc) and some more medieval/less alien looking mace and staff. Something to fit how Hell handled their own tech stuff.

* Carcass: Arachnotron-like legs and a more Chaingunner-like body/face. Maybe they'd have an actual arm cannon.

* Dreadknight: Being Hellknights, they could still have horns and maybe their energy would be blue/white instead of orange

* Prowler: A purple Imp with some metal visor attached to the head, that has 3 yellow eyes in it.

* Gargoyles: Maybe how they look in the D64 Gargoyle statues or some of the stone portraits textures but with a metal jaw.

* Fire Baron: We already have that one Realm667 variant but now with fire blades on the arms. Maybe some "shell"/chitin aspects of Eternal's art style could fit the volcano-ish style.

* Whiplash: I remember how it was supposed to look more "female" according to Hugo Martin: Maybe the upper half could be like the Doom 3 Vagary or that cut female Doom 64 monster, so it resembles a female body/face but still with the exposed brain, horns, metal arms and the wire "hair" in the back of the head.

* Marauder: Could be split into two different concepts: A possessed knight/viking type that could look like somethig out of Heretic/Hexen or Quake's knight enemies and an evil Doomguy clone made by Hell.

* DoomHunter: A type of Cyberdemon where the "platform" is stylized to resemble certain textures/weapon sprites and his "gun" could be an arm cannon for simplicity and there's debate on whether or not he keeps the double saw. his design seems Doom-ish enough in some ways but a change of details for simplicity and art style don't seem like a bad idea. For creativity i thought of him having a nose ring like Heretic's Maulotaur.

* Kahn Maykr: A typical human female angel statue, with golden wings and her brain on top of her head almost resembling a pope hat/Papal Tiara with some metal wires around it. Already mentioned in some other thread.

* Gladiator: Obviously an HK edit but maybe the shield could be tweaked to resemble some classic skull textures (or the IOS spawn cube) to have a more classic skull. His eyepatch could be like those with tiny ropes around the head to be more obvious.

* Tentacle: Maybe something closer to the "tentacles"/intestines textures.

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I started making my own little unofficial campaign for Doom EXP, but you know, it was more of a personal project. But I would love to be able to have a campaign of D4V that I could play on GLBoom plus or Chocolate Doom.

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Someone on Doomworld remade the first level's first room of Eternal.

 

 

And here's the Super Gore Nest months before the game released except it's not vanilla-based.

 

 

Still, it seems we have to wait a bit more for Eternal themed mods/content for classic Doom to appear.

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On 11/29/2019 at 7:51 AM, ImpieEyez95 said:

Has anyone tried recreating (to the best of the ability with GZdoom) the campaign from DOOM (2016)? It would be superb to play through the campaign on classic doom... 

 

I have tried to get the map layouts for Doom2016 in attempt to recreate them, but I gave up fairly early. I don't have a lot of spare time as it is--I would definitely like to see a complete Doom2016 -> Doom 2 TC. EDIT: and would be willing to assist anyone willing to make one.

 

I also had thought about just foregoing that and making some approximations in Quake2--but again, time.

Edited by 𝕲𝖗𝖊𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖌𝖊𝖗1

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