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Dubbagdarrel

Am I the only one that doesn't like crushers?

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12 minutes ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

oh no shit, that's actually pretty clever! So you put cacodemons on a pillar outside and used a fast damage crusher? they were set to deaf then the crusher awoke them when it hit them? I actually never though of that.

 

It was actually inside a fairly small room with a skylight (or a ceiling with a sky that's much higher than the room's ceiling). The cacodemons aren't deaf, but the room blocks the sound. Once you walk in, a couple of normal cacodemons are hanging around. Start shooting them and the airborne cacodemons start floating in from the ceiling.

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3 hours ago, Doomkid said:

You’ve got one friend in the “fuck most crushers” camp over here. Map06 of Doom2 is an example of a crusher done right. It’s so satisfying seeing that spider get crushed, as long as you soften him up with some SSG.

 

Most crushers I come across are total bullshit though. “Oh, you’re walking down a hall that looks as normal and inconspicuous as any other? Ha jokes you’re crushed now for no reason gg enjoy going back to the start of the map with just the pistol”

 

Not super common, but on the rare occasion that happens to me.. Instant F minus!... and don’t even get me started on crushers in Deathmatch maps!!

 

Overall though, I have seen some used to great effect and as mentioned, the crusher on Map06 is simply iconic, so I certainly can’t say I hate them or want them gone.

You're absolutely right. I love the crusher in map 06. That.s different, because like you said the spider mastermind. If the crusher is used to create some effect for the map, that's fine too. But like you said, walking down a hallway with no idea it's going to happen, especially if it's a slow damage crusher, then I'm sorry but I just can't deal. I once ran into a map where if you grabbed the soulsphere, the crusher came down with slow damage. DEAD. So what was the point of tricking me like that. It's not challenging, just annoying. I don't hate crushers as a whole, and maybe I shouldn't have said that they're "garbage" but they're just no for me . :)

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16 minutes ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

oh no shit, that's actually pretty clever! So you put cacodemons on a pillar outside and used a fast damage crusher? they were set to deaf then the crusher awoke them when it hit them? I actually never though of that.

It's MAP19 of 1monster. The barrel and four cacos are each on a very thin, very high pillar. The crusher destroys the barrel, and the barrel explosion pushes the cacos away from their pillars, but since the game has already started they remain at their altitude. They're not woken up because they haven't seen or heard the player yet, so they just remain floating there. The pillars are then lowered so the player doesn't get to see them. Since the caco-holding pillars are very thin, the cacos no longer have their center above the pillars when they are lowered, so they do not lower too. (That's why you can't simply put them on a high floor and then lower it, as they would just follow the movement.)

 

It's all a workaround for the fact the vanilla Doom format doesn't let you adjust the spawn height of things, so they all either spawn on the floor or (if they have the requisite mobj flag for that, like hanging corpses) the ceiling.

 

Interestingly, Heretic has a mobj flag that makes gargoyles spawn at a random height between floor and ceiling. Such a thing could have been nice for cacos and lost souls to make them look more like a swarm of flying creatures. It took Hexen to just allow to directly set the spawn height of things so you can put flying enemies at the height you want.

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3 hours ago, Gez said:

It's MAP19 of 1monster. The barrel and four cacos are each on a very thin, very high pillar. The crusher destroys the barrel, and the barrel explosion pushes the cacos away from their pillars, but since the game has already started they remain at their altitude. They're not woken up because they haven't seen or heard the player yet, so they just remain floating there. The pillars are then lowered so the player doesn't get to see them. Since the caco-holding pillars are very thin, the cacos no longer have their center above the pillars when they are lowered, so they do not lower too. (That's why you can't simply put them on a high floor and then lower it, as they would just follow the movement.)

 

It's all a workaround for the fact the vanilla Doom format doesn't let you adjust the spawn height of things, so they all either spawn on the floor or (if they have the requisite mobj flag for that, like hanging corpses) the ceiling.

 

Interestingly, Heretic has a mobj flag that makes gargoyles spawn at a random height between floor and ceiling. Such a thing could have been nice for cacos and lost souls to make them look more like a swarm of flying creatures. It took Hexen to just allow to directly set the spawn height of things so you can put flying enemies at the height you want.

I have that WAD. gonna look at that later.

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5 hours ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

And killing monsters with it, for get about it, I don't have all day.

 

It is a great way to save ammo though. The aforementioned Crusher (MAP06) you can flip the switch and hide behind the staircase until the spiderdemon dies, and it deactivates when you touch the sector. Crushers are at their best when they are an equal hazard for both the player and monsters, which is why I hold E2M2's crusher hallway in high regard, as the imps just go right under them and die, showing the danger right then and there of getting caught.

 

a bit off-topic from what I said above, but I only just realized there were crushers in the left hallway in Plutonia MAP02. They're obviously not done well since I never noticed them until now (I always run through that hall, and no monsters get in the way).

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What is Doom without crushers? The only wad where I felt like they were non-existant is - the best wad I've ever played - Hell Revealed. But seriously, they are one of the things that used to advertize the new Doom engine back in 1993. They're simply classic. I used only one crusher in my maps this far and it was to add a hazard and force the player to move forward in that situation. This doesn't mean I won't ever make any. They always can find a use and sometimes levels need some hazards in order to make the player watch their step. That's why you also get damaging floors. Simply use the crushers wisely. 

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I just don't like the slow ones.  Nothing takes the fun out of a game like, "surprise, you're stuck and now dead! <3"

 

Don't mind the fast ones, though.

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I don't like crushing traps in any game. No exceptions. I just can't deal. For whatever reason, it shoots my anxiety through the roof, and I get cold sweats, especially in first-person games. Having a map full of instant-death crushers that move at irregular patterns is a great way to get me to turn the game off for a while. It took me two weeks to get past Residue Processing in HL1 my first time.

 

I might have claustrophobia or some shit, I dunno.

 

 

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Crushers are fun.

 

What is best in Doom? To crush your enemies. See them flattened before you and hearing the lamentations of the other demons. :D

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Depends on how they are used. If there is fair warning and are easy to navigate, or as a method of killing monsters, then fine. 

 

If there is no warning, such as enter hallway, lol u ded, or if they're part of some pain in the ass puzzle, then that is automatic IDCLIP for me. 

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Yep, if used as a 'lol u ded' measure, they suck. Or as a dumb 'how fast can you strafe-run' like that Scythe level that everyone blacks from their mind then RAGE!!

 

But so long as they have fair warning, or are used to crush monsters, or are used as predictable movement challenges in industrial type areas, I'm good with them.

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Spot on! That map made me delete Scythe. I've never played the wad since then. I've never exited it alive. Scythe all in all made me think "slaughter maps" were dumb back in the day which resulted in my ridiculous comments in a particular thread. Otherwise, that's what I meant by used wisely. In my opinion if there is a way into something, there must be a way out of it or a way to avoid it. Death crusher traps and bottomless pit traps must be used in a way the player must always have a way to avoid them. 

 

Disclaimer: According to me, the actual reason map 28 of Scythe sucks is not that much the timed crusher, but the fact your way to the exit is convoluted and constantly blocked. Let's not forget it constantly collapses and there are a few demons, a revenant and an arachnotron on the way and there is no way not bumping into them. If that route was a more straight line, the level would have beein fairer. 

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I'm a bit on the fence with crushers, but I'd say I'm leaning on the side if disliking them. Often, when I come across a crusher, it's the centerpiece of it's own encounter, like in map 2 of Doom 64. Basically, when the encounter is just a series of crushers, it tends to be boring, tedious, and nothing more than something to pad out the level.

 

ON THE OTHER HAND, when a crusher is used in conjunction with something, like an enemy encounter (like in e2m2 of Ultimate Doom) or as part of an interesting puzzle (Like in the Guardian of Steel in Hexen), then they can be fun. In fact, I find that crushers have a better place in Hexen, rather than Doom.

 

All in all, I rarely find crushers fun, but I believe they can be done right.

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If only those crushers weren't so loud in Guardian of Steel...

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On 11/30/2019 at 10:44 PM, NuMetalManiak said:

a bit off-topic from what I said above, but I only just realized there were crushers in the left hallway in Plutonia MAP02. They're obviously not done well since I never noticed them until now (I always run through that hall, and no monsters get in the way).

I have the opposite opinion, the crushers there are really sneaky, in fact the first time I played that level I died in that section because I was not expecting crushers on a stairway!

 

13 hours ago, spd7693 said:

 

Spot on! That map made me delete Scythe. I've never played the wad since then. I've never exited it alive. Scythe all in all made me think "slaughter maps" were dumb back in the day which resulted in my ridiculous comments in a particular thread. Otherwise, that's what I meant by used wisely. In my opinion if there is a way into something, there must be a way out of it or a way to avoid it. Death crusher traps and bottomless pit traps must be used in a way the player must always have a way to avoid them. 

 

Disclaimer: According to me, the actual reason map 28 of Scythe sucks is not that much the timed crusher, but the fact your way to the exit is convoluted and constantly blocked. Let's not forget it constantly collapses and there are a few demons, a revenant and an arachnotron on the way and there is no way not bumping into them. If that route was a more straight line, the level would have beein fairer. 

Try playing that level on a lower skill level. Certain obstacles are removed, allowing for a more forgiving path to the exit.

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Guardian of Steel from Hexen was the map that made me go from just liking crushers to actually wanting to marry crushers. I used to make imitation maps in Doom2 quickly with rooms full of random crushers and try to get from one side of the room to the next, just for shits and giggles. It's like that scene in Dragon's Lair where you have to hop across electrified squares, any wrong step could be your last. 

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On 12/1/2019 at 12:10 AM, Gez said:

The barrel and four cacos are each on a very thin, very high pillar. The crusher destroys the barrel, and the barrel explosion pushes the cacos away from their pillars, but since the game has already started they remain at their altitude. They're not woken up because they haven't seen or heard the player yet, so they just remain floating there. The pillars are then lowered so the player doesn't get to see them. Since the caco-holding pillars are very thin, the cacos no longer have their center above the pillars when they are lowered, so they do not lower too. (That's why you can't simply put them on a high floor and then lower it, as they would just follow the movement.)

 

I actually just used lowering self ref sectors for a similar effect in Remnant. In retrospect this would've been a really cool way to do it too, but I think the end result I got was quite good with just sector movement. It didn't look like they were lowering on floors, and once they were free of the confines of the skylight the movement continued organically. Neat trick nonetheless, will need to remember it!

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On 12/1/2019 at 4:37 PM, Andromeda said:

Try playing that level on a lower skill level. Certain obstacles are removed, allowing for a more forgiving path to the exit.

Heh, people just don't want to face the fact that they shouldn't play on UV and go on playing on UV and it's always the game's fault. Right now, it seems those who are willing to lower to match their playing style are really wise. BTW, Scythe Map28 is weird, but it doesn't suck. Those people suck. It's very similar that some of the maps require you to run pass some enemies and return to them later, and there'll always be people saying "This map is unfair because it doesn't give me enough ammo to kill everything".

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The fact there is less stuff still doesn't change the only way to beat the map. You still have to backtrack from the blue key to the blue switch. This is what slows me down all the time. Not the fact there are monsters on the way. The only problematic of them is the revenant towards the end. And I completed Hell Revealed on UV, so if you wanna tell me Scythe is harder, your opinion. Furthermore, why dropping the skill for one map only instead of improving? 

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4 hours ago, GarrettChan said:

Heh, people just don't want to face the fact that they shouldn't play on UV and go on playing on UV and it's always the game's fault. Right now, it seems those who are willing to lower to match their playing style are really wise. BTW, Scythe Map28 is weird, but it doesn't suck. Those people suck. It's very similar that some of the maps require you to run pass some enemies and return to them later, and there'll always be people saying "This map is unfair because it doesn't give me enough ammo to kill everything".

 

So those who accept to lower the match are wise? i thought those who wouldn't play on UV would be mocked to death. Thanks for the Tip GarrettChan

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3 hours ago, spd7693 said:

The fact there is less stuff still doesn't change the only way to beat the map. You still have to backtrack from the blue key to the blue switch. This is what slows me down all the time. Not the fact there are monsters on the way. The only problematic of them is the revenant towards the end. And I completed Hell Revealed on UV, so if you wanna tell me Scythe is harder, your opinion. Furthermore, why dropping the skill for one map only instead of improving? 

Here are three low quality first attempt demos, each recorded on a different skill level, showing that it is much faster to complete the level on lower skills and it has nothing to do with the monsters.

sc28-skills.zip

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1 hour ago, TheBoltDoomer said:

So those who accept to lower the match are wise? i thought those who wouldn't play on UV would be mocked to death. Thanks for the Tip GarrettChan

Thanks for twisting what I mean, and feel free to do so again.

 

Spoiler

BTW, someone $h@t on a particular map but also this particular someone said "why drop the skill instead of improving".

 

Edited by GarrettChan

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1 hour ago, TheBoltDoomer said:

i thought those who wouldn't play on UV would be mocked to death.

It's actually the other way around. If the community sees some butthole going around mocking non-UV players, that player will themselves be mocked into oblivion. Making fun of how others play can Hurt them Plenty. When we see that shit, we say "Hey, not too rough, they're too young to die!". It's Ultra-Stupid and sometimes it can turn into an outright Nightmare!

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1 hour ago, TheBoltDoomer said:

So those who accept to lower the match are wise? i thought those who wouldn't play on UV would be mocked to death. Thanks for the Tip GarrettChan

People who refuse to lower the difficulty settings in spite of frustration and whatnot while blaming the map and its author are usually the ones that are made fun of, because they're reaching beyond their abilities, and what they call out as unfair bullshit is usually stuff other players can handle reliably just fine.

 

There have been plenty people over time who thought that custom WADs would need to adhere to some imaginary difficulty standard in order to be "fair", and if the WAD didn't do so, it was deemed BS, in fact, some of those people are still around today, trying to shove their crap down the throats of new mappers every so often.

 

What you're not going to see here often - if at all - is people mocking others for not playing on UV, and chances are that if you get to see something like that, the two people involved might actually be friends with one another, and it's merely some friendly banter.

 

In the years I've been here I haven't seen anybody who went out of their way to belittle players for not playing the highest possible difficulty setting. At least I don't remember seeing anything of the sort.

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the only reason I play on UV is because for me, it just seems like it's way to get the best out of the map. Most of the time you see the author's true intentions. How they meant the map to be. Experience the map at it's ultimate. Also, after 20 years of playing, it just doesn't seem to make sense for me to play on a lower difficulty. But I would never look down on or belittle anyone for playing on lower difficulties. Do what makes it fun for you!

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38 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

What you're not going to see here often - if at all - is people mocking others for not playing on UV, and chances are that if you get to see something like that, the two people involved might actually be friends with one another, and it's merely some friendly banter.

 

In the years I've been here I haven't seen anybody who went out of their way to belittle players for not playing the highest possible difficulty setting. At least I don't remember seeing anything of the sort.

Not necessarily about UV elitism, but I have definitely seen a shitload of general skill elitism in Doom's community. It's not the norm around here, especially for the last few years, but I have distinct memories of players saying that any difficulty under UV is "bullshit not worth acknowledging" and that players under that skill level essentially shouldn't have their feedback taken seriously. It's been a while since I've seen that kind of talk though.

 

I also have many, many memories of genuinely assholish non-friendly shit talking in the MP scene of the mid 2000's, even going so far as other players sabotaging eachothers servers and doing other really fucking mean shit like that, but again that's not at all the norm these days and it hasn't been for many years.

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