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Artman2004

Most underwhelming weapon is Doom

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The fist and pistol.

Pistol is weak and slow and does not seem to have any special advantage or ability, it even consumes same ammo as chaingun so you cannot use it to save some better ammo.

On the other hand, the Elven Wand in Heretic is actually useful - feels stronger and faster and can be used as a budget weapon against weaker monsters or sniping monsters far away.

The Pistol in Duke Nukem 3D is stronger as well.

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44 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

This beautiful thing. 

 

Lol what the fuck. That's like rolling over a Lamborghini to discover someone replaced the engine with a V6. Is that the name of the wad, "Orange is the New Love"? 

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The chaingun. It's a minigun but its fire rate is pretty shitty and it gets outclassed by the plasma rifle quickly. When I first found it, I was instantly disappointed. I feel like a different firing sound, a faster firing rate and maybe a little bit more damage would fix this.

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3 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

Chainsaw is obsolete with berserk

Objectively, chainsaw is basically a slightly better version of Chaingun, but short-ranged. Thus, it is practical to use on most (lone) enemies, especially on ZDoom-based ports, and while using a berserk pack on monster is indeed stronger, it might gets tedious and risky if you are a total noob.

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The chainsaw is the best weapon for pain elementals when you can actually close the distance quickly and safely. It puts you right in their face so they can't spawn lost souls even if for some reason they manage to avoid stunlock long enough to attack, and it keeps you right in their face even if they move a little bit, contrarily to fists. When they finally die, the chainsaw gives you a tiny little nudge "inside" the exploding pain elemental, and that causes you to block the lost souls from spawning.

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16 hours ago, Gez said:

So I'm gonna say the chaingun. It's a big gun, it's in the fourth slot so it should be "better" than the shotgun, but really it doesn't have enough dakka. I pretty much only use it for long-range sniping, for monsters that absolutely need to be stunlocked until their death such as the pain elemental and the pain elemental and also the pain elemental, or when I'm nearly out of shells and rockets.

 

Second worst would be the plasma rifle, which basically only gets used if there are no BFGs. The noise and opacity of its projectiles make it annoying to use, and there's always the lingering thought that I'd get more DPS with the BFG.

Both Chaingun and Plasma Rifle are the best guns for your own security. If you don't know the level and you're ambushed, they're your best defence against fast-attacking monsters such as Chaingunners or Revenants. Walking in new territory with the Super Shotgun is too dangerous. If you miss a Chaingunner and he starts firing, you're defenceless.

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The chaingun I can give you, but the plasma is useless, its projectiles just get snagged on corners far too often to make it a general-purpose weapon.

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17 hours ago, Hisymak said:

On the other hand, the Elven Wand in Heretic is actually useful - feels stronger and faster and can be used as a budget weapon against weaker monsters or sniping monsters far away.

 

The Elven Wand is particularly useful when tomed up. Most of the other weapons don't really feel like an upgrade or they got some drawback coded in - but the powered up Elven Wand is one of the most effective weapons in the entire arsenal.

 

For most underwhelming weapon in Doom I choose the pistol. Even as a pistol it feels weak and useless and designing gameplay around it is very, very hard - and if a map tries it will get criticized for being slow and grinding, there's a reason after all why so many maps place a shotgun right next to the start.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Gez said:

The chaingun I can give you, but the plasma is useless, its projectiles just get snagged on corners far too often to make it a general-purpose weapon.

 

Yeah, this is a good point actually, but it also greatly depends on the circumstances.

 

Against corners and elevated enemies yes, it's basically useless as the projectiles get snagged far too often to be of much use, so the Chaingun has an advantage here, but if the enemies are more-or-less on the ground level, it can be useful in general. Then again, if the player has the BFG is becomes useless again, since if it's used wisely, the DPS indicates more enemies will be put into the grave for less ammo than the Plasma would otherwise eat up.

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Plasma gun does have its niche uses (even if BFG is already available). A good example is the cyberdemon in Map29 of Plutonia. It is placed in such a way that using BFG would be a waste of ammo when trying to kill him from across the road.

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Outside of pistol and unbeserked fist, probably the shotgun. I use the other weapons pretty evenly. I actually prefer the plasma rifle for walking into unknown situations.

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Thread seems to have clogged with wrong opinions, so here's mine: the Plasma Gun is good even after you get the BFG. If you expect to be ambushed by huge monsters such as revenants and hell knights, or suddenly surrounded by cacodemons (you may never know), as a panic weapon it's more efficient than the BFG, where you'd risk wasting 40 cells for each monster (because in a close ambush it's not likely to see them all at once), especially if the map likes to scare you with lone sergeants when you expect mancubi. And a chaingun may be too weak if you indeed get mancubi.

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Plasma gun is the shit, I prefer it over the BFG. The BFG is very situational for me (cybers, SMM, hordes of stronger enemies) where as PG fucks shit up pretty much all the time. It's great for crowd control and it's great for focus firing. If a map has copious cells I'll use the PG way more than the BFG.

 

Chaingun is awesome too, it fucks up anything with a high painchance and it's function as a sniper makes it invaluable.

 

To answer the question: none, really. If I have to say something then fist, I guess.

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BFG vs Plasma

BFG is useful only at a relatively close range due to the inaccuracy of the tracers. I use it more as a super powered shotgun. Unless there are literally hordes of enemies where the 40 tracers hit no matter where I shoot or an enemy absolutely positively needs to die in the next second (usually Arch-Viles), I prefer the Plasma. Pain-locks almost every enemy, very good DPS, and sometimes even gibs human enemies. Also safer on the ammo management since you don't have to swap weapons if you encounter a low tier enemy where BFG would just waste ammo. And you don't want to be switching weapons if you suddenly encounter a -fast Heavy Weapon Dude. And I am probably in the minority which actually likes the loudness of it :P.

 

The only drawbacks of Plasma are the projectile width and that the shots have travel time.

 

If a Cyberdemon is more than a short distance away, I just melt it with Plasma since it would take like 5 BFG shots to kill it from a range. Plus it's safer.

 

Underwhelming

Pistol and normal Fist. Berserk has its uses and Chainsaw can pain-lock a decent amount of enemies, basically a melee Chaingun. Pistol loses any and all point once you get the Chaingun.

 

On 12/2/2019 at 7:32 PM, Hisymak said:

On the other hand, the Elven Wand in Heretic is actually useful - feels stronger and faster and can be used as a budget weapon against weaker monsters or sniping monsters far away.

The Pistol in Duke Nukem 3D is stronger as well.

Feels stronger not because of the weapons but because enemies in Duke and Heretic have on average much less HP than in Doom. Almost all of Duke enemy roster can be 1-2 shot with the Shotgun. I can now play Duke 3D only if I give the enemies a 60% damage reduction. Otherwise it is too boring and easy.

 

Heretic lacks regular tough enemies as well. I am always drowning in ammo.

 

One of the main reasons I like Doom the most is that some enemies can actually take a beating, which gives it variety.

 

On 12/3/2019 at 11:48 AM, Gez said:

The chainsaw is the best weapon for pain elementals when you can actually close the distance quickly and safely. It puts you right in their face so they can't spawn lost souls even if for some reason they manage to avoid stunlock long enough to attack, and it keeps you right in their face even if they move a little bit, contrarily to fists. When they finally die, the chainsaw gives you a tiny little nudge "inside" the exploding pain elemental, and that causes you to block the lost souls from spawning.

The best weapon against Pain Elementals is the power of love. If you hug them, they are unable to handle the amounts of love you are showering them with, have an emotional breakdown and forget to spawn Lost Souls. Doesn't matter what weapon you are holding when doing so. :)

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1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

Feels stronger not because of the weapons but because enemies in Duke and Heretic have on average much less HP than in Doom.

The wand in Heretic is stronger than the pistol.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Elven_Wand

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Pistol

 

Even without the Tome of Power, you get 190.9 shots per minute dealing 7-14 damage, for a DPS around 33.4. (Average damage value doesn't take RNG table into account though, I don't feel like computing that.) The pistol, on the other hand, gives 150 shots per minutes dealing 5-15 damage, so the same quick computation (again, ignoring the impact of the RNG) as the wand gives a DPS of 25.

 

Most Heretic weapons are weaker than their Doom counterpart (at least, when untomed), but the wand on the other hand is stronger.

 

As for enemy hit points.

  20                    Zombieman
  30                    Sergeant
  40  Gargoyle
  60                    Imp             Nightmare imp, PSX/D64 lost soul
  70                    Chaingunner
  80  Gargoyle leader                   Afrit
      Golem
  90                                    Stalker
 100  Golem leader      Lost soul
 120                                    Wendigo
 130                                    Dark bishop
 150  Sabreclaw         Demon/Spectre   Reiver
 175                                    Ettin
 180  Disciple
 200  Undead warrior                    Centaur
 220  Weredragon
 250                                    Chaos serpent, Slaughtaur
 280  Ophidian
 300                    Revenant        Nightmare spectre
 400                    Cacodemon
                        Pain elemental
 500                    Hell knight
                        Arachnotron
 600                    Mancubus
 640                                    Death wyvern
 700  Iron lich         Arch-vile
 800                                     Menelkir, Traductus, Zedek*
1000                    Baron of Hell
3000  Maulotaur         Spiderdemon
4000                    Cyberdemon
5000                                    Korax, Heresiarch, Mother demon
5500  D'Sparil*

First column: hit points; second Heretic monsters, third PC Doom monsters, fourth console Doom monsters and Hexen monsters just for reference. Heretic's weakest enemy is stronger than Doom's weakest enemy. However, the bulk of Heretic's monsters are concentrated in the 80-280 range, while Doom has several ranges: the fodder range (20-150), then a mid-tier range (300-700), and finally the bosses. Heretic also suffers from a lack of bosses, given how D'Sparil cannot be used as generically as the cyberdemon.

 

Explanation for notes: the Hexen evil player bosses get 4000 hp in coop, I listed them at their SP value. D'Sparil is actually two separate monsters, the first phase has 2000 hp and the second 3500. Of note is that when the second phase dies, it kills all other monsters in the map. I've recently played through some old Heretic levels that used a bunch of D'Sparils as if they were regular boss monsters, which meant that the first time you kill a phase 2, all the remaining phase 1 go to phase 2, and the second time you kill a phase 2, all monsters are fully nuked.

 

It's kind of interesting to see that Hexen has the same sort of spread as Heretic, in fact slightly worse. Regular enemies are in the 80-to-250 range, while Heretic has them in the 40-to-280 range. (While Doom has them in the 20-to-700 range.)

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4 hours ago, xvertigox said:

Plasma gun is the shit, I prefer it over the BFG. The BFG is very situational for me (cybers, SMM, hordes of stronger enemies)

 

Bosses and hordes of stronger monsters ... sounds like half of Doom battle situations :D

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40 minutes ago, Gez said:

Even without the Tome of Power, you get 190.9 shots per minute dealing 7-14 damage, for a DPS around 33.4. (Average damage value doesn't take RNG table into account though, I don't feel like computing that.) The pistol, on the other hand, gives 150 shots per minutes dealing 5-15 damage, so the same quick computation (again, ignoring the impact of the RNG) as the wand gives a DPS of 25.

 

Most Heretic weapons are weaker than their Doom counterpart (at least, when untomed), but the wand on the other hand is stronger.

 

Going purely by the numbers, yes. I should have specified that I meant relative to the monsters you usually face in the respective game.

 

Ophidian with its 280 HP is the toughest regular enemy you will encounter in Heretic (and only in the expansion episodes to boot), which is pretty weak compared to Doom 2, where you regularly encounter Mancubi (600), Barons (1000) and such. Even a Cacodemon with its 400 would be extremely tough if put into the Heretic bestiary. Killing an Ophidian with the Doom pistol would take only less than 3 seconds longer than with Wand due to the low HP they have. The Wand would not feel nearly as strong if it was put against Doom bestiary and the high HP of enemies in it is the main reason why Pistol is mostly useless.

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chainsaw/fists without berserk.

Every other weapon has it's role though the pistol is outclassed by the chaingun, since it's only use is activating switches and sniping out zombieman.

Chainsaw is usable when you're out of ammo, though that chance of enemies not getting stunned and attacking you really gets me some times, so i'm just careful with ammo if i dont have a berserk.

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chaingun.  its solid against zombiemen, but so is the pistol.  it can stunlock a revenant/pain elemental, but nobody uses it to stunlock enemies.

 

I hardly used the bfg in udoom tbh.  There is not really much need for it.

Edited by Mk7_Centipede

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10 minutes ago, Mk7_Centipede said:

 it can stunlock a revenant/pain elemental, but nobody uses it to stunlock enemies.

 

I often use it to stunlock arachnatrons - if they're very close / it's cramped it's a lot more useful than the ssg.

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