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Not Jabba

The Roots of Doom Mapping

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This was an excellent read and extremely well written. What a great addition, good job.

 

I'd like to add a quick comment though, "Essentially, this is a (somewhat) condensed history of the Doom community." It does  omit the multiplayer side of the community, which historically has plenty of interesting material as well.

Edited by Decay

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24 minutes ago, Decay said:

I'd like to add a quick comment though, "Essentially, this is a (somewhat) condensed history of the Doom community." It does  omit the multiplayer side of the community, which historically has plenty of interesting material as well.

And gameplay mods. I just didn't have the expertise, alas. I made sure to note a number of things that weren't included in the conclusion. Hopefully somebody will be interested in writing those histories at some point.

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For me personally this is way more interesting than the Cacowards. Great work, looking forward to finishing it off.

 

p.s +1 for coffee table book

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I read it all in one go anwyay. Got somewhat frustrated when some of my favourite megawads were relegated to footnotes (I've listed them too many times already), but really that's inevitable. More importantly, drawing from my own experiences of witnessing the PWAD scene evolve, the points  made are quite accurate.

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Truly a fantastic piece, I enjoyed this the most so far. Thanks to all who worked hard on this event year after year. <3

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36 minutes ago, Bauul said:

I also wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with your observations on the penultimate page.  With many new mappers beginning their exposure to level editing with GZDoom/UDMF, there's none of the philosophical divide between "traditional" and "modern" mapping.  The difference between BTSX and The Slaughter Spectrum isn't one of technology, but simply artistic goals.  With GZDoom's featureset continuing to expand in almost every direction, pushing technological boundaries is far less of an appealing goal unto itself than the days of KDiZD.  As you say, it's far more about executing a specific artistic vision with whatever technology that needs to be used.

 

Have to say how much I agree with this as well, mostly because I am part of that new wave. I made a lot of terrible maps a decade ago with DB, but coming back to this in 2017 or so, I went straight into UDMF not really realizing the implications of it. All the fancy new features just felt like ways of enhancing the classic experience, rather than transforming it, and that's really how I saw it (and still do, to a large degree).

 

Something I thought about while Not Jabba was discussing the general lack of g/zdoom/UDMF community projects, due to the issues of maintaining any kind of reasonable control over consistency in an environment of so much divergent complexity, was the affect that I predict Elementalism may have on things. That project really looks like it's going to fill that hole (or bridge that gap?) in a big way, and likely inspire a rush of UDMF creations, including opening the doors to more like-minded community projects. I just think Elementalism is going to be a very important WAD in the coming years, as far as influence.     

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Tip of the proverbial hat for turning this edition of the Cacowards into the Cacowords. Impressive work.

 

And yeah, it would be interesting to get the "missing parts" such as for the multiplayer scene.

 

1 minute ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Something I thought about while Not Jabba was discussing the general lack of g/zdoom/UDMF community projects

There was ZDCMP2 (its predecessor ZDMCMP was before UDMF existed), the half-dozen Joy of Mapping events, the Mapwhich, the ZDoom Community 2018 Hexmas Special, the Hellforge Speedmapping Sessions...

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11 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

general lack of g/zdoom/UDMF community projects,

Funny you should say that, I've just announced one ;p

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4 minutes ago, Gez said:

There was ZDCMP2 (its predecessor ZDMCMP was before UDMF existed), the half-dozen Joy of Mapping events, the Mapwhich, the ZDoom Community 2018 Hexmas Special, the Hellforge Speedmapping Sessions...

 

Well... I may not have done my homework. I think it's fair to say it's still a small portion of what's out there, but those are some great examples that I wasn't aware of/forgot about. Though, I still maintain a feeling that Elementalism will have a very strong affect, based on what they've previewed. I could be completely off-base, however. 

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good read

 

i dont entirely agree with the patterns and categorizations, but largely i agree with the choices of wads (except 1, which i'll get to). i think for example, categorization-wise, Simplicity stands in rebellion to its "advanced"-port predecessors like RTC or Daedalus, and other wads that were taking influence from AAA games of the time. It's difficult for people who have come into the community since to really understand how influential Simplicity was, but that style (and the influence of that statement) seemed to influence damn near everything I played for the next few years afterward.

 

I also think it's worth noting that many of the trends of the 90s and the early 00s owed a great deal to the AAA FPS games that were made at the time. This influence has mostly disappeared today.

 

i said as much on discord: but i think the one wad that's a glaring omission is dtwid. it spawned:

 

1) so many spin-off projects, including some still in the works

2) i think as a community it has lead many people to reevaluate sandy peterson's style of mapping.

3) i think the fact that it (and spinoffs) was a large community project that involved so many people and really forced them out of their comfort zone in mapping, really affected how the mappers who worked on it worked. you can talk to anyone who did work on it to see that. and those ideas have spread from them to others.

4) among other things, it's incredibly the anti-Simplicity! and there isnt quite the same precursor to that.

5) it simply changed how a lot of people thought about the game, and about mapping. it's a (perhaps unintentional) revolt against the detail obsessed mess of the 00s.

Edited by anotak

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4 hours ago, Gez said:

Tip of the proverbial hat for turning this edition of the Cacowards into the Cacowords. Impressive work.

 

And yeah, it would be interesting to get the "missing parts" such as for the multiplayer scene.

 

There was ZDCMP2 (its predecessor ZDMCMP was before UDMF existed), the half-dozen Joy of Mapping events, the Mapwhich, the ZDoom Community 2018 Hexmas Special, the Hellforge Speedmapping Sessions...

Yes, in the last few years there are a growing number of them, which is a trend I'm happy to see (note that most of those listed are from the past year; you could also count Spooktober and Near Death Experiences among that number).

I tried to avoid prediction as much as possible -- the mini-spotlights in the last chapter are intended more as a cross-section of what's currently happening than my thoughts on what will become influential -- but on a personal note, my guess is that Elementalism is going to be one of the major figures in a sort of "new-new-wave" that is currently emerging, which includes works by Bridgeburner, Bauul, Major Arlene, Dragonfly, and others. I barely got into Slaughter Spectrum in the essay and haven't put my finger on many of the design tropes yet, but it looks like these folks are following in the vein of classic-but-modern a la most of the releases listed in that chapter, but just with a bit more focus toward modern, and an emphasis on some pretty slick geometric style. I'm guessing it'll launch a solid armada of ships -- it seems to be doing so already.

I'm glad people have been enjoying this mega-essay. The writing and revisions ate up most of my free time in the last 2+ months, including a bunch of late nights, but it feels amazing to have gotten it out the door on time even with all the stuff I kept adding; I learned a ton even as I was writing it.

Edited by Not Jabba

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3 hours ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

the affect that I predict Elementalism may have on things. That project really looks like it's going to fill that hole (or bridge that gap?) in a big way, and likely inspire a rush of UDMF creations

That sounds like wishful thinking to me. There's a reason UDMF CPs are few and far between, if there are any around in the first place, that is.

 

The GZDoom targeting CPs I have seen so far, not that there have been many, seem very prone to not being able to stick to deadlines of some- or, in fact, any sort. It's not like any CPs along the lines of elementalism are anything that should be expected when it is made available for the public. Just look at the "frequency" of updates in that thread, a screenie here and there, maybe a gif, but that's usually it. Finding the kinds of mappers who are willing to spend what feels like over half a year on a single map, and then a few months on polishing the whole thing once feedback starts rolling in is going to be hard. Smaller scale UDMF stuff, like with deadlines around a few months, sure, why not? But bigger and more ambitious CPs? I don't think so.

 

If there were that many UDMF mappers around who could fill slots in a CP, there would also be a decent number of UDMF solo-releases going around (relative to vanilla, lim-rem, boom, MBF), but that's simply not the case.

 

Elementalism isn't magically going to "fix" that, because it can't. In the past years there always was some cool stuff in the cacowards (or the HMs) that was GZDoom exclusive, none of that stuff, regardless of how well received, ever managed to get a considerable number of folks into UDMF mapping. Despite its versatility it is a niche format in the greater scheme of things, because it's not a particularly welcoming format to get into due to how extensive its options and features are.

 

[tangent]

Also I'd like to add here that the "joy of mapping" sessions aren't UDMF-exclusive events. JOM compilations also include boom format maps, for example, so it's really more a kind of CP with a mish-mash of formats, wrapped up in a UDMF-shell to get stuff like HUDmaps and custom episodes etc working, as well as housing a number of maps that can easily surpass for example 40. The mapwhich also contained a few boom maps, if I'm not mistaken, so the same applies there, too. And I don't think putting a boom or nilla map into a compilation that also houses UDMF maps should count in this context, because anybody can put a nilla map into a GZDoom exclusive shell and call it a day. There also was "project Romero", whatever is even going on with that thing right now, which also accepted formats other than UDMF in order to fill slots, though UDMF was preferred, IIRC. So I guess what I'm saying is that even projects that end up being UDMF for some reason might not be entirely UDMF, and that's because it's not easy to find enough mappers for a "pure" release. Now imagine a CP where you exclude every format that isn't UDMF, and you'll probably have a much harder time filling slots for a megawad, or maybe even just an episode or two.

[\tangent]

 

So, from a map-format-POV, why would elementalism accomplish what other solo releases didn't? It might very well have the opposite effect when you look at how long it takes for these maps to get made. Who's willing to spend let's say a year on a good, medium to large, single map (construction, scripting, testing, polish, etc), and then "donate it" to a community project instead of releasing it "solo"? That's a question you need answered, if you want to have any hopes of seeing more ambitious UDMF CPs like elementalism, made by other, new folks, no less.

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As far as I can tell, community projects in general take an age to release, irrespective of format. Poor management, indecision, slow mappers, real life events, personality clashes, asset management/planning, mappers dropping slots and a host of other events have a greater impact on a community project being finished than mere format. I wouldn't say the complexity of an individual map or a full project correlates heavily with map format. 

Re: Mapwich, yes it had a variety of formats but even the largest udmf maps were still made in the 3 week build time frame. I'd say the biggest factors in creation speed are experience with the format, experience with the tools, level of planning and good creative flow.

It is weird how elementalism is associated with community projects because it's not one. It's a massive and ambitious project, of course it's going to take time. A lot of it is kept under wraps and most of the mappers have multiple commitments. It's not taking time because it's udmf, it's taking time because people are busy. 

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1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

The GZDoom targeting CPs I have seen so far, not that there have been many, seem very prone to not being able to stick to deadlines of some- or, in fact, any sort. It's not like any CPs along the lines of elementalism are anything that should be expected when it is made available for the public. Just look at the "frequency" of updates in that thread, a screenie here and there, maybe a gif, but that's usually it. Finding the kinds of mappers who are willing to spend what feels like over half a year on a single map, and then a few months on polishing the whole thing once feedback starts rolling in is going to be hard. Smaller scale UDMF stuff, like with deadlines around a few months, sure, why not? But bigger and more ambitious CPs? I don't think so.

 

I would reckon that sticking to deadlines comes down more to the individuals, altho I do think the format could be something of an indirect cause of any unforseen work time. I myself only recently started using UDMF and obviously there a lot more variables to consider when you move into that. There's much I still don't know especially the back end of what's possible because I've never done any scripting, personally. As it stands I'm not in contact with anyone working on Elementalism apart from hanging out in streams once in awhile, I'm often impressed by what I see versus the time that it takes to create it. Expanded formats like this are always slow on the uptake, it was the same with Wolfenstein3d and Duke3d as well, I watched it happen over time with WolfSDL and the successive ports of the build engine and things like the Duke3d Hires Pack. Many hands can make for lighter work but it can also turn out to be like trying to wrangle a dozen cats into a burlap sack.

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

If there were that many UDMF mappers around who could fill slots in a CP, there would also be a decent number of UDMF solo-releases going around (relative to vanilla, lim-rem, boom, MBF), but that's simply not the case.

 

I can only speak from my own perspective, and when mapping I must admit I'm probably "slower than the next guy". As much as I've wanted to join community projects I always stop myself because I don't want to commit to something, especially a project involving others, if I can't guarantee that my contribution will be of the best quality possible. That being said, I'm currently working on a solo UDMF map that I hope to release and I'm on the lookout for upcoming community projects of any sort that I might take part in, to test my ability.

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Elementalism isn't magically going to "fix" that, because it can't. In the past years there always was some cool stuff in the cacowards (or the HMs) that was GZDoom exclusive, none of that stuff, regardless of how well received, ever managed to get a considerable number of folks into UDMF mapping. Despite its versatility it is a niche format in the greater scheme of things, because it's not a particularly welcoming format to get into due to how extensive its options and features are.

 

I agree with you on your points here, to place the expectation of landmark change on a single megawad is a lot. In custom content lifecycle the more time goes on, the less individual projects make an impact and the more important the tech becomes, the infrastructure driving new possibilities. As you said, the format is more variable and complicated, and also has slightly higher system specs than vanilla maps, let's say. Zdoom and UDMF are more like quake mapping so the timeline for individual projects can be extended exponentially, especially if there is a learning curve. When the format spans tech levels maybe folks ask themselves why not map for quake or something, or maybe move on to other games.

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

[tangent]

Also I'd like to add here that the "joy of mapping" sessions aren't UDMF-exclusive events. JOM compilations also include boom format maps, for example, so it's really more a kind of CP with a mish-mash of formats, wrapped up in a UDMF-shell to get stuff like HUDmaps and custom episodes etc working, as well as housing a number of maps that can easily surpass for example 40. The mapwhich also contained a few boom maps, if I'm not mistaken, so the same applies there, too. And I don't think putting a boom or nilla map into a compilation that also houses UDMF maps should count in this context, because anybody can put a nilla map into a GZDoom exclusive shell and call it a day. There also was "project Romero", whatever is even going on with that thing right now, which also accepted formats other than UDMF in order to fill slots, though UDMF was preferred, IIRC. So I guess what I'm saying is that even projects that end up being UDMF for some reason might not be entirely UDMF, and that's because it's not easy to find enough mappers for a "pure" release. Now imagine a CP where you exclude every format that isn't UDMF, and you'll probably have a much harder time filling slots for a megawad, or maybe even just an episode or two.

[\tangent]

 

If it were professional products rolling out for purchase by eventual consumers I might be concerned, as a cobbled together project made by random people on the internet, I have less objections. 

 

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

So, from a map-format-POV, why would elementalism accomplish what other solo releases didn't? It might very well have the opposite effect when you look at how long it takes for these maps to get made. Who's willing to spend let's say a year on a good, medium to large, single map (construction, scripting, testing, polish, etc), and then "donate it" to a community project instead of releasing it "solo"? That's a question you need answered, if you want to have any hopes of seeing more ambitious UDMF CPs like elementalism, made by other, new folks, no less.

 

It's an interesting question. "mapping intimidation" is a real thing, I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone say of a mapper "oh your stuff is so cool, i'll never be able to make that", but for each one of those there's probably an equal amount that say "your maps inspired me to start" or whatever, so in my mind, the net result is a benefit because that hopefully equals released maps that we can play and talk about. Changing formats can be biting off a lot and anytime there is an expansion in this way you see an outpour of newly started projects and like anything, select few of them really see the way to a full release, at least until the new format is incorporated or there is an influx of new talent etc. There's a lot to consider when it comes to "why is a project successful" and a team can be a blessing as much as a curse. Last I heard the Elementalism crew divided the project in half for separate releases, so I can appreciate anything they're doing to get maps into the hands of players sooner.

 

Edited by reflex17

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Just finished up the article, and it's a ridiculously good write-up (props, Sir @Not Jabba), though I do kinda yearn for a sequel that focuses on the gameplay modding world. It's kinda this weird parallel universe that occasionally crosses over into the mapping space, but has its own history and legendary figures (Immoral Conduct, anyone?) -- ditto for multiplayer, as pointed out.

 

...though I suppose we'd need a new author for that, as the un-Jabba mentioned, and I'm certainly not wordsmithy enough to do it. :P

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I was kinda surprised that the DUMP series, Joy of Mapping, or the Doomer Boards Projects didn't get mentioned as modern successors to the community project bit. Especially since the latter two both received mention in this year's Cacowards!

 

That said, this article is super engaging to read, even for the gaps in what it covers. Thanks, @Not Jabba.

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2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's not like any CPs along the lines of elementalism are anything that should be expected when it is made available for the public. Just look at the "frequency" of updates in that thread, a screenie here and there, maybe a gif, but that's usually it.

 

I think RonnieJamesDiner was employing a bit of hyperbole in their post. While it was a flattering comment, I personally think it's a stretch to presume Elementalism (which isn't a CP) will by itself have much of an impact on future CPs.  But I do think we will continue to see a "normalization" of GZDoom/UDMF content, especially as more mappers continue to adopt it. Elementalism's slow progress isn't down to the format, it's just because I'm a slow mapper. :-)

 

Quote

On a personal note, my guess is that Elementalism is going to be one of the major figures in a sort of "new-new-wave" that is currently emerging, which includes works by Bridgeburner, Bauul, Major Arlene, Dragonfly, and others

 

It's interesting to me how Elementalism fits relatively neatly into the narrative you outlined Not Jabba, when in hindsight we weren't aware of any such emerging theme when we began the project in late 2017. The origins of the project actually stem from the Community Tier of Skulldash Expanded Edition. Dragonfly invited a selection of mappers to contribute to that project, and once it shipped Elementalism coalesced out of a motivation we had to continue working together. As such, the core team of Elementalism is primarily alumni of Skulldash.

 

But when looked at through a 2019 lens, it does seem to fit into the theme. Other upcoming megawads like Age of Hell, Refracted Reality and the similar share an equitable goal of heavily utilizing UDMF to achieve specific artistic visions, but remaining focused on a classic (or close to classic) Doom gameplay feel. All these were founded independently of each other, so I wonder if this is something of a natural expansion of Doom mapping.

 

Interesting stuff at any rate!

Edited by Bauul

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32 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 so I wonder if this is something of a natural expansion of Doom mapping.

 

Interesting stuff at any rate!

 

I think UDMF is certainly becoming more mainstream at the moment, the amount of buzz created from UDMF feature heavy screenshots is massive compared to just generic vanilla doom screenshots and I think that it's inspiring people to make the change to UDMF or even making new mappers go straight to it. So sooner rather than later I think UDMF CPs will become more prominent due to the swell of mappers wanting to make stuff like Elementalism, TSS, Major's NDE and RR. No single project can be the solely responsible for that.. but collectively very much so.

 

So.. natural expansion of Doom mapping? Yeah I think you are right. We certainly are in a new age of mapping, with arena/slaughter based combat (or accessible slaughter maps as it has been described to me) also becoming more popular it seems.

 

Interesting times for sure. 

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I probably shouldn’t have made that comment. It was born of my excitement for the project, and for the future of Doom maps honestly, more than anything else – especially after reading Jabba’s article. That said, in a sense, I meant it and still do. Though for sake of clarification, I shouldn’t have considered it a community project when really it’s just a closed-group effort, and I appreciate the distinction.

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