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Eurisko

SIGIL ,Final Doom and more now available for DOOM console ports.

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I applaud the amount of effort that is put into ensuring these releases come to be, a big thanks to everyone involved.

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2 hours ago, sponge said:

We can't release anyone's work without a signed license agreement, which is typically why these changes are made. I don't make any changes to the releases myself, they are all made by the authors with their approval. The idea that id would officially release some of these WADs on consoles is obviously something people never had in mind creating levels originally (hell it wasn't even something I thought would happen as recent as last August) so most releases are going to have some minor changes due to textures sourced from various places without permission. (I don't have any problems with this mind you, I'm a big proponent of remix culture and reusing/modifying stuff from different sources, and absolutely is a benefit for the community and the works as a whole.)

 

The "you may use this" stuff in READMEs is arguably not a valid license, and there'd be nothing stopping that person from revoking it if they found it was being used in a way they don't like, which is why we don't just scrape idgames and upload stuff from there. It'd be cool if more stuff was released under Creative Commons as that would make that permission more explicit and CC is something that was built within legal frameworks to specifically grant those rights. (I have no idea if that would make things easier for us to release stuff, but I think it's a good thing in general)

 

We sometimes have to make changes to WADs for technical reasons, but Deathless didn't have any of those.

Curiosity kills the cat and i applaud the versatility of the Doom Unity port in supporting new WAD sets.

 

I remember this was answered before so correct me if i am wrong, but what was/is the reason for not implementing a DeHacked loader ala Chocolate Doom? @AlexMax, was this simply not considered when you worked on the port, it was not needed, or did you ran out of time?

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Personally I'd love if you could just side-load any WAD files from /idgames, but these inane walled garden rules apparently forbid it...

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, printz said:

Personally I'd love if you could just side-load any WAD files from /idgames, but these inane walled garden rules apparently forbid it...

You can on PC and Android. 

 

22 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I remember this was answered before so correct me if i am wrong, but what was/is the reason for not implementing a DeHacked loader ala Chocolate Doom? @AlexMax, was this simply not considered when you worked on the port, it was not needed, or did you ran out of time?

Dehacked is not a native part of Doom, so a new loader would need to be made completely from scratch.

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@sponge, so with the signed license agreement are the assets used in NEIS and Deathless free to be used in other future addons?

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1 hour ago, printz said:

Personally I'd love if you could just side-load any WAD files from /idgames, but these inane walled garden rules apparently forbid it...

unfortunately copyright exists and anyone can cause a shitstorm just because their assets were used in a commercial product, but being able to play deathless on my switch is an AMAZING option compared to them just releasing the ports and expecting us to buy the games again on our consoles and not giving us any other incentive, if you want custom wads then doom on PC is always an option.

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2 hours ago, Edward850 said:

You can on PC and Android. 

 

Dehacked is not a native part of Doom, so a new loader would need to be made completely from scratch.

Hence using Chocolate code? 

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1 hour ago, Redneckerz said:

Hence using Chocolate code?

That's not how programming works, you can't just copy and paste such code. Nor is that allowed, Chocolate Doom is under GPL, they would have to get an explicit license exemption (frome fraggle, IIRC).

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6 hours ago, sponge said:

The "you may use this" stuff in READMEs is arguably not a valid license, and there'd be nothing stopping that person from revoking it if they found it was being used in a way they don't like, which is why we don't just scrape idgames and upload stuff from there. It'd be cool if more stuff was released under Creative Commons as that would make that permission more explicit and CC is something that was built within legal frameworks to specifically grant those rights. (I have no idea if that would make things easier for us to release stuff, but I think it's a good thing in general)

Just a minor thing, but I believe Ling was making a push for this, modifying the idgames frontend text generator to generate CC-licensed files rather than the old modification terms. I didn't think much of this at the time, but seeing this as a solid example is making me understand its value...

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So i originally wanted to play deathless' original wad first but i can't stop playing it on the new port(ps4) the controls feel so good... Plus i like that new E1 sky. Very good wad, thanks for adding it.

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9 hours ago, sponge said:

It'd be cool if more stuff was released under Creative Commons

 

As @SaladBadger mentions several years ago I changed the idgames text generator to conform to CC licenses for this sort of reason. It made me feel kind of dumb that I hadn't done it years sooner since the default idgames legalese was something that some random non lawyer wrote in 1994 based on some vague notion. I would still love to have some sort of discourse with Bethesda Legal to know just what it is they think about Doom WADs anyway.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, rustygizzard said:

compared to them just releasing the ports and expecting us to buy the games again on our consoles and not giving us any other incentive, if you want custom wads then doom on PC is always an option.

I don't understand what you say there. "Expecting us to buy the games again": isn't that already happening?

 

Also "doom on PC is always an option" is a bad answer. I don't carry the desktop with me, or the laptop for that matter.

 

Android is the nice example here, but it's bad that they seem the only ones with any common sense in this larger market. Gotta look, I guess, for a Doom for Android with bluetooth gamepad support. Or rather for a portable computer with buttons easy to play Doom with. You know, I may have trouble finding any. Because most of Android is expected to be on touchscreen phones, leaving poor development for other platforms.

 

1 hour ago, Linguica said:

I would still love to have some sort of discourse with Bethesda Legal to know just what it is they think about Doom WADs anyway.

I wonder what the outcome for the existence of /idgames that will be.

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9 hours ago, Edward850 said:

That's not how programming works, you can't just copy and paste such code.

What i mean by that is that such a system as Chocolate could be used. Although yes, it will have to be newly created....

9 hours ago, Edward850 said:

Nor is that allowed, Chocolate Doom is under GPL, they would have to get an explicit license exemption (frome fraggle, IIRC).

...and if they would want to use Choco's code, that would indeed be the path they would need to undertake.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, sponge said:

It'd be cool if more stuff was released under Creative Commons as that would make that permission more explicit and CC is something that was built within legal frameworks to specifically grant those rights. (I have no idea if that would make things easier for us to release stuff, but I think it's a good thing in general)

That is so true.

I'd like to drop a reminder that Freedoom is already quite a big repository of MIT-licensed assets that I believe anyone can use to mix up in their wads without legal trouble, as far as I know.

Edited by Ferk

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54 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

What i mean by that is that such a system as Chocolate could be used. Although yes, it will have to be newly created....

...and if they would want to use Choco's code, that would indeed be the path they would need to undertake.

Then what was the point in the question if you already knew all the answers? 

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10 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

Then what was the point in the question if you already knew all the answers? 

It was not a question, rather a confirmation of - Why not use Chocolate code. You explained what has to be done for that, i replied that the options are twofold - From scratch or using choco's code with your aforementioned rammifications.

I realize it's exceptionally poorly conveyed, however.

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Something that should be easy to implement would be support for Boom's ANIMATED and SWITCHES lumps, since they're basically just the built-in tables exported to data files. They're even in the exact same format: you could take a chunk of DOOM.EXE with a hex editor at the proper offset, save it as an ANIMATED or SWITCHES lump, and it'd work.

 

For the same reason, something that could probably be done with minimal work would be doing the same thing with the state and actor tables. Once they're externalized, modifying it (and even extending it) becomes easy. And modifying whacked to alter these tables would be quite simple (just give the offsets to a wad file instead of a hex file). String replacements are already handled by DMAPINFO.

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It's a false hope, but one day I hope for a Aubrey Hodges sounds/music pack, he'll be soon releasing the anniversary edition of the Final Doom ost so he's still doing stuff with it, perhaps Bethesda should chat with him and come to an arrangement, perhaps they shouldn't, who knows.

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2 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

It's a false hope, but one day I hope for a Aubrey Hodges sounds/music pack, he'll be soon releasing the anniversary edition of the Final Doom ost so he's still doing stuff with it, perhaps Bethesda should chat with him and come to an arrangement, perhaps they shouldn't, who knows.

An official PSX Doom/Final bundle re-release would make me throw money at my screen two times (pc/console).

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Whenever i see certain assets being replaced/cut, i always wondered if some replacements/recreations could be made with the same idea but just different enough to not be the same previous asset.

Like a different Cyberdemon marble face.

This could apply to wads/mapsets in general, where new original wads made for these ports could be spiritual successors to some wads to represent their unique attributes, gameplay, aesthetic, tricks in the engine, atmosphere, spirit etc.

 

I'm sure this was thought out and said before.

But i think it's cool the amount of custom sprites/textures some wads could have, as if it were to "expand" the world of Doom.

 

Also would be cool if ports like the PS1 versions of Doom 1/2 and Final/ML got rereleased and even with some extra stuff.

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3 hours ago, whatup876 said:

Whenever i see certain assets being replaced/cut, i always wondered if some replacements/recreations could be made with the same idea but just different enough to not be the same previous asset.

Like a different Cyberdemon marble face.

They can be, and in the case of Deathless such replacements were made - all of the new red marble textures and the new animated textures were all Jimmy's recreations of the textures that were originally in Deathless that he hadn't created himself. The Cyberdemon faces would've required a lot more effort to create from scratch, however, and since they only appeared on one level there was no real reason to put forth that effort.

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I mean, it's still somewhat of a new thing to Doom and i'm surprised a solution wasn't using the Doom Eternal Tyrant's face as a reference, then tweaking that a bit to make it a bit more accurate/faithfull to the classic Cybie.

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2 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

I mean, it's still somewhat of a new thing to Doom and i'm surprised a solution wasn't using the Doom Eternal Tyrant's face as a reference, then tweaking that a bit to make it a bit more accurate/faithfull to the classic Cybie.

yesh

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Hi all been super busy so not been on here as much as I'd like. Just seen that Deathless is available. Well done AGAIN Jimmy. 

Hope everyone is doing ok.

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On 5/17/2020 at 1:08 AM, printz said:

x

sorry, my whole point was that all of the previous doom ports were just ultimate doom and doom 2 over and over again, now this time is a bit different now that we have add-ons. so now there's a bit more of an incentive to buy these new console versions now that we're promised PWADS along with the usual IWADS.

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