DOS box for doom is trash,change my mind.

[seed]

17 minutes ago, Hendricks266 said:

In conclusion, leave Build to the pros.

 

Alright then, I have a question too sir (I'm not being sarcastic, by the way):

 

When is VSync getting fixed? The game is an unplayable mess with it since... forever, and no ports ever fixed it either, I think...

[Graf Zahl]

15 minutes ago, seed said:

When is VSync getting fixed? The game is an unplayable mess with it since... forever, and no ports ever fixed it either, I think...

 

It may be fixed when the "Pros" manage to actually professionalize their project and stop depending on by now 17 or more year old code that never got any professional attention afterward and is still in a state for hardware that's by now 10 or so hardware generations old and as a result works like shit with modern graphics cards.

 

But you know what? Since the project is being managed by "Pros", I would have expected they were surely professionally knowledgeable enough to find out for themselves why the problem exists. They certainly haven't read my analysis about it on the ZDoom forum.

 

For the uninitiated, here's my findings from 3 months ago:

 

For those interested in the technical details:
EDuke32 is old code targeting mainly ancient OpenGL versions and having done the textbook 'optimizations' for modern hardware (like using buffers instead of immediate mode - none of which bring any benefit, btw!) but left out one specific change in how OpenGL is supposed to be used - that is texture samplers. Old OpenGL had the sampler settings on the texture and that's what EDuke still uses - but with modern drivers this is a first grade performance killer - magnitudes worse than buffers vs. immediate mode as I had to find out. Change the code to use sampler objects - and performance magically increases a lot! Of all the changes OpenGL got over the years, this one's the one with the most severe impact on performance on modern NVidia drivers, but weirdly also one of the most underrated ones.

 

 

[okbuddy]

OP, you've yet to respond to any of the compelling counter-arguments put forth on your thread.  Can we all breathe a collective sigh of relief knowing your mind has in fact been changed regarding the merits of DosBox?  Or are you still building a consensus?

[RoyBatty]

Odd, I get more than 1000 FPS on any of the eduke32 based ports and my rig is 4 or so years old with a 1080ti. I can't say the same for GZDoom honestly.

 

You've gotten awful full of yourself Graf, making enemies and pissing people off isn't going to do anything for anyone, or attract any of the duke community to whatever strange mish mash port you make. Build already has CON, and doesn't need things like decorate.

 

Do you even have any reverse engineering skills? From what I've seen all your work is based on existing code, and adding things rather than figuring out how something with no source code works. What's that about being pro again? Do you even know assembly? I'm guessing not.

[seed]

2 hours ago, RoyBatty said:

Do you even have any reverse engineering skills? From what I've seen all your work is based on existing code, and adding things rather than figuring out how something with no source code works. What's that about being pro again? Do you even know assembly? I'm guessing not.

 

Didn't he reverse-engineer Strife or parts of it?

 

For some reason I could swear I read something along these lines somewhere.

[doomkr]

DosBox is a trash in overall

[ketmar]

3 hours ago, RoyBatty said:

Do you even have any reverse engineering skills? From what I've seen all your work is based on existing code, and adding things rather than figuring out how something with no source code works. What's that about being pro again? Do you even know assembly?

ah, so Build and Duke3D were reverse-engineered? breaking news. i guess that's why they're in such an awful state. but then i must say that reversers did very lousy job, with all those huge functions, magic numbers, and variables with two-letter names.

 

by the way: how's polymer going? still single-digit FPS on Ion Fury spawn place? yay, surely leave it to the pros then.

[Redneckerz]

13 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

It may be fixed when the "Pros" manage to actually professionalize their project and stop depending on by now 17 or more year old code that never got any professional attention afterward and is still in a state for hardware that's by now 10 or so hardware generations old and as a result works like shit with modern graphics cards.

 

But you know what? Since the project is being managed by "Pros", I would have expected they were surely professionally knowledgeable enough to find out for themselves why the problem exists. They certainly haven't read my analysis about it on the ZDoom forum.

 

For the uninitiated, here's my findings from 3 months ago:

 

 

 

 

 

Graf, outside this thread i have seen you take multiple stabs at the Build/Eduke32 devs and Ken Silverman - Often for no purpose but to highlight that yes, you have certain views regarding them. This is justified when the topic is relevant to that discussion. But more often than not, it isn't.

 

This results in people criticizing you for starting fires in garbage bins and to be frank, i have yet to rationalize why this is done. Basically, what i try to say is: Pick the moments where to voice this opinion, aka, when it makes sense. It makes little sense to take a stab at them in a thread that has nothing to do with them or Build in general.

3 hours ago, RoyBatty said:

Odd, I get more than 1000 FPS on any of the eduke32 based ports and my rig is 4 or so years old with a 1080ti. I can't say the same for GZDoom honestly.

 

You've gotten awful full of yourself Graf, making enemies and pissing people off isn't going to do anything for anyone, or attract any of the duke community to whatever strange mish mash port you make. Build already has CON, and doesn't need things like decorate.

 

Do you even have any reverse engineering skills? From what I've seen all your work is based on existing code, and adding things rather than figuring out how something with no source code works. What's that about being pro again? Do you even know assembly? I'm guessing not.

EDuke revolves around legacy OpenGL renderers and software rendering. As i am writing below, the two codebases aren't directly comparable. GZDoom, on a graphical level, exposes a lot more of a modern graphics pipeline than EDuke does. This is why it requires a sufficient GPU. Aside that, both codebases aren't direct comparable, so what runs at 1000 FPS in Duke obviously does not have to run at 1000 FPS in Doom. Something like Planisphere is a system hog simply because of the way the Doom renderer works, and i can imagine you can make a similar stress test for Duke aswell.

 

Both ports have their own advantages and setbacks - You say Build does not need DECORATE because it has CON, but Build does not have something like ZScript, just like how GZDoom does not have CON. Which is better? I would say that for their respective audiences, they both accomplish what they want.

 

Graf needs to be judged on his body of work and not so much on his personal character when regarding GZDoom, even when, yes, said character does not always mix well with the majority here. But that is not a problem the community has to solve - Graf has to realize that for himself. Either way, i would not respect him any less for it as a coder given his modicum of contributions on the community there.

 

Lastly, obviously you don't have to judge someone's level of expertise by asking disingenuous questions. Graf's work does speak for himself, and if you really would want to know what the actual expertise level is, i am sure one would approach it differently.

 

5 minutes ago, ketmar said:

ah, so Build and Duke3D were reverse-engineered? breaking news. i guess that's why they're in such an awful state. but then i must say that reversers did very lousy job, with all those huge functions, magic numbers, and variables with two-letter names.

 

by the way: how's polymer going? still single-digit FPS on Ion Fury spawn place? yay, surely leave it to the pros then.

I am not sure if this is a loaded question or not, but the Polymer renderer was done by Plagman who works at Nvidia now, and thus he has no time to work on that.

 

I think its best to remember ourselves that both the Doom and Build codebases are vastly different from one another. Doom's base is by any measurement a lot more cleaner than Build's, which is full of fuzzy logic like thinkering. When you put Carmack's code and Silverman's on the equation table, its clear who was obviously more accustomed to writing code.

 

That said, what Hendricks and co have worked out with the Build code is nothing but remarkable. Is it less clean than any Doom based port? I am pretty sure it is. But you gotta remember, they have to work with different kind of code. As such, a direct jousting contest is thus nonsensical.

 

Obviously things can be improved, but that goes for either port. We just started 2020 folks, lets drop that animosity and remember that both communities have a similar goal - Improving decade old codebases for a new generation. How one arrives there is just one part of the journey, and not one road is superior to one another.

[ketmar]

4 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I am not sure if this is a loaded question or not, but the Polymer renderer was done by Plagman who works at Nvidia now, and thus he has no time to work on that.

but... the EDuke team is full of pros, how come nobody picked it up yet?! we left EDuke to pros, and that's what we have now. (sighs) maybe it is time for some amateurs to step in? ah, sorry, no, we have to leave it to pros, as we've been said earlier. no working polymer for us then, i guess.

[Redneckerz]

47 minutes ago, ketmar said:

but... the EDuke team is full of pros, how come nobody picked it up yet?! we left EDuke to pros, and that's what we have now. (sighs) maybe it is time for some amateurs to step in? ah, sorry, no, we have to leave it to pros, as we've been said earlier. no working polymer for us then, i guess.

Ah, you take to sarcasm to address my post because Hendricks said to leave Build to the pro's. Thanks for nullifying.

[ketmar]

not a sarcasm, just plain and simple logic. if pros cannot do anything with polymer, and amateurs are forbidden, then it boils down to what i wrote.

[Mordeth]

I've been getting complaints about this thread. Please stop the personal attacks and get back to topic.

[fraggle]

All respect due to Mordeth here but I'm going to go one step further and close the thread. Just saying something is "trash" without even bothering to take the time to articulate why amounts to trolling in my book. I'd like this to be a reminder to everyone on the forum: please put some thought and effort into your posts, especially if you're starting a new thread. Thank you.