Mapping Sadness 2: Accepting Eccentricity

[obake]

Hello, all. The purpose of this thread is to expand on the subject of Mapping Sadness by learning what it means to accept being a niche mapper. I consider the maps I usually make to be in the "schlock" category. I must set the record straight: schlock in and of itself is not a bad thing! It just means that the experience is a little less serious, or purposefully over-the-top.

 

The question I have is: how can maps such as the ones I make reach more of an audience? I myself have an answer or two, which will hopefully help other mappers who find their works a bit less-conventional.

 

To start: Balance and gameplay are key! It does not matter how many custom monsters/textures you throw in, if the gameplay is not fun, it is not successful. However, if the gameplay is legitimately fun, then you've done your job.

 

The second point: maps that are strange or silly can still look nice. Learn good detailing, and you can make even 'meh' layouts really pop!

 

I want to ask other niche mappers, of all kinds, on their advice, as well as anyone else who wants to chime in. Whether niche means purely puzzle maps, over-the-top randomizers, schlock, or any other category. Thank you all, and God bless.

 

 

 

[valkiriforce]

My favorite thing about mapping is the seemingly unavoidable personality that comes with it - no matter how much I've tried various styles over time, there's always a little something in my own mapping nature that slips through, and I feel it's those little discoveries about myself that teach me about my own mapping style. Most often my approach to Doom has always been about staying true to your own ideals, and what it is you value the most about creating your own experience.

 

Anyone who has played my maps knows right away I'm an appreciator of the classic Doom styles from the early years - something that stayed with me even after extending myself to making my first limit-removing and Boom-compatible mapsets. My favorite analogy to it would be like trying to create a brand for yourself - what are your favorite mapsets? What do you wish you could play right now? Do you see yourself more into a mixture of styles or thematic consistency?

 

When I think about my own works, I never want to do the same thing twice - the closest would be the Doom Core trilogy, of which even then I feel they all have their own established themes or impressions they gave me as I worked on and played through them. Sometime afterwards I've created unique layout areas that remind me of Doom Core, other puzzling ideas might remind me of Reverie, or something abstract or surreal could make me think of Eternally Yours. Over time they started to establish their own themes as I played around with what seemed good at the time, and in hindsight I can see where certain ideas might have been strong but executed in smaller scale due to my unfamiliarity early in creating my own maps. Over time I'm learning how to create clean layouts, map progressions and different or specific line actions in conjunction with one another. It could even be a map you target for a specific sourceport of your choice. I find the idea of subverting the player's expectations really fun and appealing - this would probably be my favorite discovery in my time with Doom level design.

 

I'll admit to being a little disappointed that I haven't been able to overcome a notable effort like Reverie - I feel I could have handled the release of Eternally Yours a little better, and I wish other releases had gotten more recognition over the years. Oceanside is a very personal effort, and one of my favorites - I can't imagine anything else replacing its significance to me, and likewise I can't expect others to connect with it the way I do. Over time I've learned to be content with how I go about working on new projects and coming up with interesting names for them. If I wanted to, I could announce a new project at any time and despite being the creator of it, I can sometimes get excited for it in the same way I would for a game announced at E3. I've reached a point where I wouldn't mind taking a break from creating more levels to playing more wads - I spent a lot of free time in 2018 working on Sargasso, getting Akeldama prepared while also creating maps for it, and contributing to other people's projects at the time. It's been a lot of work as it is, so taking a break and just playing levels can be really nice and relaxing. It could be when people are in a more relaxed state that ideas begin to flow more freely, as I much prefer to work from an environment that encourages that atmosphere instead of forcing anything to happen. Most of the time the levels I have fun creating are the maps I have fun playing - seems simple enough.

 

That being said, when it comes to actually presenting said projects, I think the threads created here on Doomworld are incredibly important. When I presented Reverie, I basically gave it the red-carpet treatment of target goals, map listing & music, screenshots and even a quick video demonstration of the maps I had completed at the time. Compared with later threads I've created where I basically gave a simple explanation of compatibility and length paired with screenshots and a download link, in part I can understand why it wouldn't draw as much attention. Of course beyond actually creating a thread there's always the screenshots and work in progress threads for posting screenshots and explanations. I'm sure people can give feedback or direction on what's missing or where a map concept could be taken.

 

Another little thing I like to do is save a notepad full of map title ideas, project concepts and maplists and an overall good place to organize information which could help give direction for where you might be headed next. Think about a map concept - for example Doom 2's "Circle of Death" (or 'O' of Destruction) and how it had a circular hub platform, connected with other abstract side-areas and connected fixtures leading the player with breadcrumbs across the map. A simple title can give those kind of ideas. I especially appreciate the eagle's eye view of a map layout concept, which honestly carried so much of Reverie's development at the time. I studied a lot of my favorite mapsets and looked over the map layouts of Memento Mori and Requiem, and I came up with a lot of fun shapes and sector areas getting filled with windows, platforms, secret hallways, curving staircases and other little pieces that fall together over enough time brainstorming about what structures I'd love to explore and buildings I'd like to climb around. It's a fun little 3D gymnasium I can run around in and transform into a battleground of my own will.

 

I love the personality and character of all the different maps and megawads I've played over the years - there's a large pool of inspirations to draw from, and with a mixture of your own flair and personality it's difficult to imagine anyone else filling those gaps.

[baja blast rd.]

12 hours ago, obake said:

To start: Balance and gameplay are key! It does not matter how many custom monsters/textures you throw in, if the gameplay is not fun, it is not successful. However, if the gameplay is legitimately fun, then you've done your job.

 

That is true but also vague. And what people find fun differs. A huge essay can be written on the subject, but imo 'balance' ceases to be a driving concept once there are no longer issues that make a map dysfunctional. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that it becomes a detrimental concept after that, if held onto too tightly. 

There's a lot to that, but one thing people often overlook is the value of alternating reward/bounty with famine/oppression in a deliberate way. 

 

12 hours ago, obake said:

The second point: maps that are strange or silly can still look nice. Learn good detailing, and you can make even 'meh' layouts really pop!

 

Imo detailing is the last thing worth learning. If you study the best vanilla stuff, you'll notice that certain fundamentals of design result in attractive scenes even when smaller-scale detail is rare or nonexistent. It's just as true in advanced format stuff. Take away Ancient Aliens's showpieces like the UFOs and occasional outlier maps (like "Culture Shock") and 90% of the artistic appeal comes from texturing, area/scene composition, lighting, tastefully clean transitions, etc. -- not from going crazy with chiseling and insetting and Tormentor's Detail Guide-isms in crude husks. Or look at Stardate 20x7 and Finely Crafted Fetish Film.    

 

The Brigandines and Saturnine Chapels, which bind their identity very tightly to micro-detail, are rare; and even Brigandine would be pretty neat-looking without like three-quarters of that stuff.

 

From what I've seen -- and I'm not going to sugarcoat this because sugarcoating wastes people's time -- you have a lot of room to improve the artistic value of your maps without even changing the detail level much, at all. 

 

12 hours ago, obake said:

The question I have is: how can maps such as the ones I make reach more of an audience? I myself have an answer or two, which will hopefully help other mappers who find their works a bit less-conventional.

 

I feel this is a different question entirely, and the answer is better marketing. Most stuff frankly isn't played that much at all. Even good releases are lucky to hit more than a page or two. People eat up polished megawads, and if you're a famous name you might get a big audience regardless, but beyond that, you need confidence and self-promotion. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by rdwpa

[ketmar]

15 hours ago, obake said:

earn good detailing, and you can make even 'meh' layouts really pop!

gothic99. ;-)

 

i see it as two things: first, the map should have some memorable places to serve as waypoints for the player. and second, between those waypoints we'll usually have corridors, and those should have something to break their monotonic style, like texture change, small alcove with a lamp, etc. ah, and some contrast lighting.

 

too much details usualy looks like visual noise due to specifics of doom textures, and geometry limitations.

 

so yeah, good detailing is...good. but "good" doesn't mean "alot of it", quite the contrary. real artist can put several small touches, and the thing will shine! ;-)

[Nine Inch Heels]

The best way to accept "eccentricity" is to not give a damn what people say about your maps. In my case this means for example that complaints about how the platforming is too hard, how health is too tight, how monster XYZ makes something too difficult, etc yadda yadda, are something I can quite often chalk up to "the person complaining isn't part of the target audience for this particular map".

 

That being said, don't get the idea that you can dismiss any and all feedback by virtue of being "niche". You need to filter out the feedback that is actually useful for you. So any time people are willing to discuss your ideas with you, you should be giving things a closer look, and when people don't want to discuss your ideas with you, that's when you can pay a bit less attention.

 

If you want your stuff to get played more, you perhaps need to also include stuff that makes your maps feel less "eccentric". Also, like rd said, promotion is kind of an important deal, so try and become part of some "clique", and you have yourself a bigger audience. Also, on the subject of "promo", join some community projects, and put some of your eccentric stuff there, and you have yourself some new faces looking at your maps.

 

Other than that, make sure that, even if your stuff is niche, it works properly. Nobody likes to play maps that "misbehave". Polish is key here.

 

Also, if you're a niche mapper, you need to deal with the fact that sometimes you get only like 3-4 people to look at your map to a point where they take their time to write down some of their impressions, provide a demo, stream it, etc. Basically, "small victories" are something you will have to learn to appreciate, because you're not getting "games media coverage" any time soon.

 

23 hours ago, obake said:

It does not matter how many custom monsters/textures you throw in, if the gameplay is not fun, it is not successful. However, if the gameplay is legitimately fun, then you've done your job.

Fun is subject to the eye of the beholder, and you can't "force" people to enjoy your maps. It doesn't matter how creative and finely tuned a corridor-fest is, it's still a corridor fest, and many people will tell you to study some skillsaw maps, so you learn how to make better layouts, after they played your map. That's just how it is. Being a niche mapper means by very definition that the majority of people won't like your stuff as much as you yourself do, if at all.

 

23 hours ago, obake said:

The second point: maps that are strange or silly can still look nice. Learn good detailing, and you can make even 'meh' layouts really pop!

"Detailing" is overrated, and high levels of sector detailing won't save an otherwise poor map. Getting the map to do what you want it to do is the prime directive. When it does that you can concern yourself with making it look "better". The only exceptions would be when you make maps purely for the sake of visual appeal, or artistic expression, in which case compromising functionality for looks might be acceptable.

 

Also, interesting architecture > micro detailing, and in fact without decent architecture your micro detailing doesn't even "move the needle along the meter". Always work from big elements to small elements when doing visual design, and don't get fooled into thinking you need 10k sidedefs per 512x512 square to make something look nice. Detailing means that eventually you'll have diminishing returns on your work, and I'd strongly advise to find a good moment in time to stop adding sectors and splitting linedefs.

[Magicana]

I've only played one of your maps (Located in the beta release of a CP, link below) and I quite enjoyed it. I've seen it discussed on here before, but these kinds of maps are very hit and miss - And there is no telling when it's going to be an amazing map and when it's going to be a bad map. Keep doing what you're doing!

 

 

[obake]

Thanks so much for the replies, everyone! You are all awesome. :)

 

10 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Fun is subject to the eye of the beholder, and you can't "force" people to enjoy your maps. It doesn't matter how creative and finely tuned a corridor-fest is, it's still a corridor fest, and many people will tell you to study some skillsaw maps, so you learn how to make better layouts, after they played your map. That's just how it is. Being a niche mapper means by very definition that the majority of people won't like your stuff as much as you yourself do, if at all.

Walter Bergman once said, "Jack-o-lanter puppies want me thank you treasures!" All kidding aside, I hope this thread is helpful to niche mappers.

[SOSU]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:29 PM, Nine Inch Heels said:

The best way to accept "eccentricity" is to not give a damn what people say about your maps. In my case this means for example that complaints about how the platforming is too hard, how health is too tight, how monster XYZ makes something too difficult, etc yadda yadda, are something I can quite often chalk up to "the person complaining isn't part of the target audience for this particular map".

Yeah if there's a reason the map is the way it is then criticism against it is useless. For example let's say you are a very skillful player and want to make a "normal difficulty" map, then if people complain that it is too hard to be a map of "normal difficulty" you should tone it down a notch, but if you want to make it hard for a purpose, people saying it's too hard is useless :/ (or helpful since it tells you that you accomplished your mission)

Imagine someone complaining about a map being a hell map and not a techbase, that's basically it xD

[ketmar]

6 minutes ago, SOSU said:

Imagine someone complaining about a map being a hell map and not a techbase

that's me!

[boris]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:38 PM, obake said:

The question I have is: how can maps such as the ones I make reach more of an audience? I myself have an answer or two, which will hopefully help other mappers who find their works a bit less-conventional.

 

To start: Balance and gameplay are key! It does not matter how many custom monsters/textures you throw in, if the gameplay is not fun, it is not successful. However, if the gameplay is legitimately fun, then you've done your job.

 

The second point: maps that are strange or silly can still look nice. Learn good detailing, and you can make even 'meh' layouts really pop!

 

Map quality doesn't really give you an audience, it keeps it. To get it you have put in some work. Have a look at the following posts presenting map sets on this forum:

 

 

They are all polished posts. Not just text, but also title images, header images starting new sections etc. That's what gets the potential player's attention. Of course images aren't enough, you also have to tell the players why they should try your creation. And pleeeease be confident in your description. No "it's a niche map, please try it anyway".

 

Also besides (regularly, to get the hype up) posting screen shots in the forum posts, there are also a bunch of Discord servers where you can show off your work and usually get feedback more directly.

[Foodles]

Honestly just make whatever kind of level you want to make, don't try to force yourself into some specific niche just to try and get more people to play your stuff. Let me ask you this, if you made a level and posted it on here but no one played it, do you think you'd have wasted your time in making that level?