Doom and Doom II 2020 re-release

[Edward850]

1 minute ago, Nevander said:

So then the real problem is Germany being anal about Nazi imagery? Something that happened nearly 100 years ago now. So because of that, and them wanting a "global" version, everyone gets the same stripped down version? That's hardly fair to everyone else who wants the original experience. We just have to accept that? It's frustrating.

Here's a better question, why are you still posting?

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, Nevander said:

So then the real problem is Germany being anal about Nazi imagery?

No, the problem is every country that is "anal" about Nazi imagery, of which there are quite a few. Germany simply happens to be one of the biggest markets in that "bracket".

3 minutes ago, Nevander said:

We just have to accept that?

No, you can simply not buy the product in question and not accept it. It's a whole lot less annoying than bitching about it as far as I'm concerned.

3 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Something that happened nearly 100 years ago now.

It is not just something that happened about 100 years ago. I'd suggest reading a history book, if you have no clue how many people suffered under "something that happened nearly 100 years ago", and think quite clearly how many countries were affected, if you want to have a grasp as to why some countries are "anal" about Nazi imagery.

[LexiMax]

I suspect that the point of releasing this on the PC was for a few reasons:

• To support people who might want to port their mods to the console versions.  It's probably much easier to figure out what the port is and is not capable of when there's a convenient PC version you can test against.
• They already had it working on so many other platforms and it wasn't a huge additional lift to add a PC port to the mix, so why not.
• It is an unquestionably superior out-of-the-box experience compared to the DOSBox port.  You shouldn't have to install a source port or read a list of instructions cobbled together by fans to have a good experience playing DOOM.  Making it easy to have a good first experience playing DOOM is how you create more DOOM fans that decide that maybe they should give this source port thing a try.

[Lila Feuer]

Everyone upset about the triangle is failing to realize that this is the alternative timeline where Wolfenstein Part II: Rise of the Triad happened.

[Nevander]

41 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

why are you still posting?

Because the thread isn't locked yet.

 

34 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

you can simply not buy the product in question and not accept it

Wasn't ever going to anyway. I already have the original IWADs. Doesn't mean I don't care about how they handle it.

 

37 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I'd suggest reading a history book, if you have no clue how many people suffered under "something that happened nearly 100 years ago"

Do you really think I'm that ignorant? I'm not saying we should be waving Nazi flags around. I'm just saying it's a videogame and removing Nazi imagery in one seems like a pointless act. We all know it was there so why change it.

[Edward850]

7 minutes ago, Nevander said:

I'm just saying it's a videogame and removing Nazi imagery in one seems like a pointless act. We all know it was there so why change it.

We told you why they changed it multiple times in multiple ways. You seem to be bouncing back to this question for every single alternate point that is explained, I'm not sure if you realise this yet, but you need to stop. 

[Nine Inch Heels]

9 minutes ago, Nevander said:

We all know it was there so why change it.

Because, again, it is necessary to avoid legal issues when the product gets released in countries like Germany. How many more times is it required to explain this to you?

 

It is, legally speaking, a separate release, so it doesn't get a "free pass" because of an older version on a different platform. Do you really think people would spend time and money on changing assets if it wasn't necessary at all? I'm just asking, because if you really think the people in charge feel like throwing money away, you might just be that ignorant.

[D4NUK1]

10 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Because the thread isn't locked yet.

 

 

 

Man, dont earn a mute or ban like that, the rules are up there.

I hope they add to install add ons (wads) on the go, it's cool what addons could be featured on consoles like Oficials :D

For PC the only thing i don't like it's the borders grey things, but not big deal. Only plan to buy it for the split screen official with friends :D
 

[VanaheimRanger]

2 hours ago, qweqioweuo123 said:

source ports uncapped 35fps years ago

 

 

i wonder whats the point of this rerelease

$$$

[Nevander]

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It is, legally speaking, a separate release, so it doesn't get a "free pass" because of an older version on a different platform.

Well it should. That's my point in this entire thing. They can design all the modern games however they choose and leave out or change anything they want but when it comes to classic established titles such as Doom, changing anything is sacrilege.

 

I'm talking game content and assets here to clarify, not the engine quirks.

 

Not using Nazi imagery or red crosses in new games? Fine. But removing them from a game from the 90s, re-release or not? Not fine. I will always stand by this belief and nothing will change my mind.

[Doomkid]

15 minutes ago, Nevander said:

when it comes to classic established titles such as Doom, changing anything is sacrilege.

 

I'm talking game content and assets here to clarify, not the engine quirks.

This doesn't make any sense. How is preserving the color of the crosses on the medikits or Hitler's moustache "more important" than preserving how the engine functions?

 

So changing some things is okay, as long as it's things you agree with? Is that what you're saying? Seems like a double standard tbh. I think getting rid of infinitely tall actors is "sacrilege" because it actually has some effect on the way people play the damn game. The gameplay is the heart and soul of Doom, but changing that is no problemo, but some pixels on Hitlers face and a colored plus are suddenly sacred and not to be altered? Wat?

 

Ling also said really clearly not to make this a thread about censorship.

 

Quote

I will always stand by this belief and nothing will change my mind.

Okay, well this is just flat out backwards-thinking nonsense no matter what concept you apply it to. You should always be willing to change your tune in light of new evidence, new ideas, new perspectives you never considered before, etc.

[Edward850]

26 minutes ago, Nevander said:

but when it comes to classic established titles such as Doom, changing anything is sacrilege.

Aren't you making a mod where you ripped all the assets from Doom64, stuck them all in a PWAD, converted the maps and scripting to a different format and made for an engine that has completely different and incompatible playsim timings and absent the texture filter said assets were designed for while chucking in maps and features it never originally had on top? All for the express purpose of playing Doom64 in a way you feel is better? 

Why do you get a free pass while Id is stuck to strict arbitrary rules you personally define? 

[Nevander]

8 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

This doesn't make any sense. How is preserving the color of the crosses on the medikits or Hitler's moustache "more important" than preserving how the engine functions?

Twisting my words... I mean things like improving the engine by using a source port like GZDoom and not trying to preserve every little engine bug.

 

9 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

You should always be willing to change your tune in light of new evidence, new ideas, new perspectives you never considered before, etc.

Always? No. Beliefs are important. Would you tell a highly religious person to become an athiest? You're gonna have a bad time.

[Nevander]

Just now, Edward850 said:

Aren't you making a mod where you ripped all the assets from Doom64, stuck them all in a PWAD, converted the maps and scripting to a different format and made for an engine that has completely different and incompatible playsim timings and absent the texture filter said assets were designed for while chucking in maps and features it never originally had on top? 

Why do you get a free pass while id is stuck to strict arbitrary rules you personally define? 

Because my project is not official.

[Edward850]

53 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Because my project is not official.

So? That's as arbitrary of a distinction as the rules you've already defined. 

Besides, it's not as if they haven't already changed things before. You are late to the complaint, they removed Nazi imagery 26 years ago. Perhaps you should fire up a time machine instead of bothering us and deliberately flaunting rules to post your slights? 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Edward850

[Doomkid]

50 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Twisting my words... I mean things like improving the engine by using a source port like GZDoom and not trying to preserve every little engine bug.

So preserving every little engine bug doesn't matter, that stuff can be changed, but preserving every little pixel does matter? Why? Where is this arbitrary line coming from? I didn't twist your words, I made an obvious inference from exactly what you said, which is that changing engine quirks is (arbitrarily) fine while altering a couple pixels (arbitrarily) isn't. No twisting necessary, you just said that..

 

Quote

Always? No. Beliefs are important. Would you tell a highly religious person to become an athiest? You're gonna have a bad time.

They can refuse to change their tune in light of new information if they want to. I'm not trying to stop them. That doesn't change the fact that refusing to ever change your mind is flat out backwards-thinking nonsense no matter what concept you apply it to.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Doomkid

[Egg Boy]

Looks fun, might experience this port through the switch release, as I'm not particularly interested in buying the same game on the same platform just to see the neat new engine, I do wonder, is split screen a thing on the switch ports? That would be a good time.

[Graf Zahl]

Wow, Nevander acting like a spoiled child again...

 

The problem goes a lot further than the cited legal requirements. No matter how you look at it, the Nazi imagery in these levels, just like Wolfenstein 3D as a whole, is rather gratuitous and certainly not presented in an historic context. That will get you into legal conflicts not only in Germany but in several other countries as well, but that's not all - you also have to think about moral implications here. Would you really risk that some anti-fascist groups in the world would call for a boycott of your product because of two mostly inconsequential secret levels? It's simply not worth the legal nightmare this can cause.

Remember, computer games aren't the same immature market as 25 years ago, and id isn't the small underdog anymore that it was when Doom was made.

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 hours ago, Nevander said:

Well it should. That's my point in this entire thing

No it should not, not at all, never. Why? Because that would be blind faith, and blind faith is potentially harmful.

 

You expect official agencies to act simply based on how it's called Doom, instead of doing their job properly and checking/approving/disapproving the product in its entirety. This isn't how this works, nor should it be how it works, because it would open the floodgates for all sorts of bullshit, and you don't want that either, not where you live, and nowhere else in the world, because it will get abused it eventually. So, people do their job properly, and therefore the port does not get a free pass. "Tailgating" any sort of "mass-media" is a bad idea, re-release or otherwise. End of story.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Nine Inch Heels

[MFG38]

I'm inclined to think it's safe to assume that Bethesda is just trying to cash in on the Doom franchise by even thinking about re-releasing the classic Doom games. At least it wouldn't surprise me if that did turn out to be their entire motive behind it, given the fact that Skyrim saw about half a dozen re-releases as well. Given the fact that Doom Eternal is slated to come out in just over 2 months as well, this reeks of a desperate attempt to make a quick buck while we wait for that.

 

I'm only going by the impression I got from Dwars's video yesterday, since I have absolutely no intention of buying these new ports, but frankly this beloved franchise deserves more respectful treatment than this.

[Graf Zahl]

6 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

Given the fact that Doom Eternal is slated to come out in just over 2 months as well, this reeks of a desperate attempt to make a quick buck while we wait for that.

 

 

For the unininitiated, it's called "Marketing", they get quite a bit of press for these re-releases and of course the upcoming release of the new game will get more PR this way. They simply figured that this way they get more out of their money than just by running ads.

 

[Egg Boy]

2 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

I'm inclined to think it's safe to assume that Bethesda is just trying to cash in on the Doom franchise by even thinking about re-releasing the classic Doom games. At least it wouldn't surprise me if that did turn out to be their entire motive behind it, given the fact that Skyrim saw about half a dozen re-releases as well. Given the fact that Doom Eternal is slated to come out in just over 2 months as well, this reeks of a desperate attempt to make a quick buck while we wait for that.

 

I'm only going by the impression I got from Dwars's video yesterday, since I have absolutely no intention of buying these new ports, but frankly this beloved franchise deserves more respectful treatment than this.

not quite sure what you're referring to, the ports were a bit of a mess before, but this update has apparently cleaned them up considerably, and added a number of QoL improvements from the looks of it. I'd say the point of re-releasing the games is accessibility. Making these games available on modern consoles and IOS expands the potential player-base, possibly introducing a whole new generation to classic doom. Sounds good eh? Also, Dwar's video wasn't overwhelmingly negative or anything, he was simply noting the differences between DOS doom and the port, that being said, the port is still being updated, and it'll probably be an even better port in a few months :)

[CyberDreams]

1 hour ago, Egg Boy said:

Looks fun, might experience this port through the switch release, as I'm not particularly interested in buying the same game on the same platform just to see the neat new engine, I do wonder, is split screen a thing on the switch ports? That would be a good time.

It's pretty decent imo. I'd say it's worth it depending on how much you play Doom (it's also pretty cheap to buy imo). I've been playing it on my XB1 and it seems to be working well so far. I also bought Doom II on PC so i could try see how that version is and it's been working fine so far as well (and i'm still on Windows 7!). But yeah, i own the X360 versions and now the XB1 versions so i understand how you feel haha!

 

I have no idea about the split screen on the Switch release as i don't own a Switch. I do admit that it would be neat to own one but then i'd have to buy Doom again! :)

 

Also, I wanted to say a little something about the "censorship" issue but the "Badministrator" himself stated not to so i won't. Everything has been said already anyway's.

[Gez]

2 hours ago, Nevander said:

I will always stand by this belief and nothing will change my mind.

We don't want to change your mind, we just want your to shut up about it already.

[Aurelius]

12 hours ago, Linguica said:

Trying to load Remnant as an add-on crashes instantly

Is the port aimed to run vanilla maps only, or can it extend to limit removing in general? I'm wondering why it might've crashed.

 

Then again, Remnant uses a few Boom/MBF linedef properties because ports like Crispy or PrBoom+ cl2 ignore them or support them (ignore in case of Boom conveyors and support in case of MBF sky transfer.) Maybe it has something to do with those? 

[Egg Boy]

10 minutes ago, Aurelius said:

Is the port aimed to run vanilla maps only, or can it extend to limit removing in general? I'm wondering why it might've crashed.

 

Then again, Remnant uses a few Boom/MBF linedef properties because ports like Crispy or PrBoom+ cl2 ignore them or support them (ignore in case of Boom conveyors and support in case of MBF sky transfer.) Maybe it has something to do with those? 

Well it runs Sigil, which is limit removing.

[Gez]

It's probably more accurate to say "limit-extending" than "removing".

 

Obviously we do not have the source code of these new ports, but we do have the source code of its BFG-edition-embedded predecessor. And it just raised a few limits, namely visplanes, drawsegs, openings, and backuptics.

 

It's also interesting to note that the BFG edition version is capped at 15 megs of memory use. This might have been increased in these Unity versions (it's probably needed, to manage to load Back to Saturn X and its eleventy gazillion textures, the mod that allowed people to discover that vanilla Doom had a hard limit of how many lumps can be read from a wad file) but that too can be a reason why a giant map like Remnant crashes.

[funduke]

29 minutes ago, Aurelius said:

Is the port aimed to run vanilla maps only? 

 

Here's a quote from the patch notes:

Quote

 

Note that only WADs compatible with so-called vanilla-DOOM and DOOM II will function at this time.
 

 

 

Read the full patch notes here:

https://bethesda.net/community/topic/369943/doom-doom-ii-patch-notes

 

Greetings

Funduke

[Egg Boy]

3 minutes ago, Gez said:

It's probably more accurate to say "limit-extending" than "removing".

 

Obviously we do not have the source code of these new ports, but we do have the source code of its BFG-edition-embedded predecessor. And it just raised a few limits, namely visplanes, drawsegs, openings, and backuptics.

 

It's also interesting to note that the BFG edition version is capped at 15 megs of memory use. This might have been increased in these Unity versions (it's probably needed, to manage to load Back to Saturn X and its eleventy gazillion textures, the mod that allowed people to discover that vanilla Doom had a hard limit of how many lumps can be read from a wad file) but that too can be a reason why a giant map like Remnant crashes.

Strange that they would extend the limits rather than remove them altogether. Perhaps with the BFG edition, Nerve ran into visplane errors and the like while making No Rest for the Living and simply decided to extend the limits to meet their needs, and thus was carried over to the new ports which may be based on that version.

[seed]

6 minutes ago, Egg Boy said:

Strange that they would extend the limits rather than remove them altogether. Perhaps with the BFG edition, Nerve ran into visplane errors and the like while making No Rest for the Living and simply decided to extend the limits to meet their needs, and thus was carried over to the new ports which may be based on that version.

 

Well, I guess it comes down to what purpose the ports serve.

 

BFG Edition, afaik, was supposed to only be able to run the OG games + NRFTL, so making raising all limitations wouldn't have served much purpose.