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Dubbagdarrel

Why does it seem that the DW community prefers Boom over Zdoom format?

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17 minutes ago, Graf Zahl said:

This thread surely killed all the motivation I had to pick up PrBoom again

 

Just out of morbid curiosity, why were you working on a port whose raison d'etre is demo compatibility to begin with?

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Yeah, please boss, don't leave me alone with them 32 channels and Revenant closets.

 

Though I can definitely understand where he's coming from, seeing reactions such as some of those in this topic is very demoralizing and only inspires... not doing anything at all or spending your time doing something else instead.

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10 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

Just out of morbid curiosity, why were you working on a port whose raison d'etre is demo compatibility to begin with?

For UMAPINFO.

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22 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

 

Just out of morbid curiosity, why were you working on a port whose raison d'etre is demo compatibility to begin with?

Spoiler

And because the port is lightweight I think

 

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38 minutes ago, Grain of Salt said:

Just out of morbid curiosity, why were you working on a port whose raison d'etre is demo compatibility to begin with?

 

I believe one of the reasons why he worked on PrBoom+ is that it is a baseline port for many wad authors (particularly for Boom/MBF mappers). Both GZDoom and Eternity Engine have many cool little features (features that don't detract from the doom experience) which are seldom used by mappers because PrBoom+ doesn't have them.

 

One of these features is the ability to define and control map progression. Both Eternity and GZDoom can do this via EMAPINFO and ZMAPINFO respectively. However, PrBoom+ didn't have this capability, until UMAPINFO. A project called Fork in the Road is an excellent proof of concept of what can be done.

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Why am i not surprised this has dissolved in yet another fine example why there is a divide between ZDoom and DoomWorld. I can't say it isn't expected. When you research history, you are bound to start seeing patterns. Sad to say that this thread's development added to that all-familiar pattern. Consider this from a fresh participant looking inside the madhouse, it is really a sight to see how veterans of the community from both ends try to trickle tiger's tails by stepping on them on purpose.

 

In this community we all have our seperate islands. Sometimes we like to visit the other by boat, and sometimes we try to sink the ship if the timing of the passengers is unfortunate. This shaky behavior is represenative here. We like eachother (Doomworld/ZDoom, represented by Fraggle/Linguica as primary protagonists on one end and Graf Zahl/Gez on the other) both with their own seperate henchmen, but we also love to take potshots, whether that is saying ZDoom does not fix mistakes but keeps them for the sake of it or that GZ does not do enough work on his PrBoom port with strenous implications, or whether that is saying Eternity or PrBoom hold things back for the modern computing crowd by trying to either remain unfinished (as accusation) or catering to a low end crowd.

 

Being so heavily invested with Doom, i understand you take things with more stride than Joe Schmoe would. I totally get that. But what i don't get is the consistency of these potshots, this pattern, constantly reappearing as the years go by. Instead of acknowledging that you can reach the island also by plane or by a different public service boat, the pattern consists of the aforementioned shaky behavior.

 

I wonder when the moment comes where realization sets in on how completely and utterly useless said pattern is, if that moment ever comes, and even more importantly, that it gets recognized as such.

 

The simple fact that this discussion and bickering still exists to this very day is telling.

 

My 2 worthless cents.

 

17 hours ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

well IDK guys I'm just trying to figure shit out lol I'm confused lol. I'm in support of all ports I was just wonder what the draw was to pr-boom over zdoom. it just seems like thats what most people use here.

 

You already have your answers, but ill just put it in here.

  • PRBoom Plus (and GLBoom Plus!) were the primary ports of call for demo playback and the sheer fact that it maintains great compatibility with vanilla and Boom stuff. It also runs on a superfluous array of hardware, even in its GL incarnation. You could probably take a server GPU like the ATI ES1000 (Itself a long lasting descendant of the Radeon VE of 2000!!!) and it would run GLBoom just fine. Recording demo's is basically the realm of PrBoom Plus.
  • ZDoom (And now GZDoom) forfeits the system requirement but tries to support all the wonky hacks people have used along the way. It is the primary port of call if you are aiming for rich scripting support and visual features. Most mods are targetting ZDoom. There is a seperate discussion to be made about the why it needs OpenGL support, but in the here and now, @drfrag does a great job with his catalogue of legacy ports that either add older GL renderers back or truecolor from QZDoom. Speaking of the latter, whilst most of its work is now in GZ, it is now a playground for new features to try out.
15 hours ago, UndeadRyker said:

People only focus on what what GZDoom adds, and with that, apparently more is always better, as you conveniently bolded. And so, that page furthers the arguments and divisions and promotes the ZDoom elitism we see today.

I mean its fairly obvious that ZDoom and its offsprings do not advertise themselves as pure vanilla/boom-compatible source ports. So simply by obmitting that alone should already give you an idea on how ZDoom acts.

 

What they do however, is advertise themselves as ''the best way to play classic doom.'' This is not the same thing and i feel i should point this out.

 

The grunt of regular ZDoom's work is Randi's, not Graf's. So if something is peculiar, it is best to say that Randi may have not noticed that, despite Graf being the defacto maintainer now. Considering you talk about vanilla behavior, it is best to assume this.

 

12 hours ago, Edward850 said:

While I'd like to think you wouldn't stoop that low, I hope this isn't a worrying trend of you trying to sabotage other ports.

This kind of implication is one of those things why this pattern of visiting eachother's islands only when it has an benefit to the owner of said island keeps existing. There is no basis in reality to support this claim whatsoever, and the old GZDoom ordeal where Graf brought his work offline isn't the same thing.

 

Especially when you then later state that you ''would like to think he's not actually trying to do that.'' It reveals the intent of your percieved hope, which isn't geniune.

 

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

This thread surely killed all the motivation I had to pick up PrBoom again. I rather spend my time on something more worthwile then, fortunately I have other projects I could allocate the time to.

So, Congratulations are in order!

''There you have it! No more PrBoom+!''

 

Corny joke aside, this is not the way to go with this. History repeats and for the exact same reasoning as it did last time with GZDoom. Unironically its also almost exactly 10 years after that event. Lessons learned? I leave that up for you.

 

Graf, it sucks this killed your motivation, but i also know that you will come back somewhere.

 

And that isn't the blame of one community, mind you. Its a collective blame because we allow this kind of development to happen, every. single. damn. time.

Edited by Redneckerz : A small clarification.

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1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

And concerning the assumption of demo compatibility being such an important feature: How is it then that most people playing Doom do not use PrBoom, and do not use Eternity, never mind the more basic ports? The easy answer is: It's not even on their radar! What they want is an engine that "just works" and preferably offers hardware accelerated rendering.

 

It is true that most people use GZDoom, but then again, PrBoom and other demo compatible source ports do also target very different demographic. GZDoom is for more casual doom players that just want prettiest graphics and also do not mind that the gameplay is far from being authentic to actual original game. PrBoom is for more serious doom players that want to use something is more authentic to the original game while enhancing the experience with more subtle ways.

 

Keeping demo compatibility is pretty important because of that, it is a feature that original engine had and a good authentic source port should always be backwards compatible with it.

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1 hour ago, Graf Zahl said:

Does it surprise anyone here that none of the other GZDoom developers is visiting anymore?

Certainly doesn't surprise me, because one of said developers has been banned somewhat recently. It would seem the number of potential visitors is regulating itself for reasons other than what you'd like to make believe. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

Oh yeah, by the way.... If you think people are not going to voice their opinions, because you're working on something in your spare time, just like every mapper, modder, or texture/sprite artist does, I'm afraid you're out of luck. Devoting spare time to this game doesn't make you anything special, certainly not to the point where your points of views and ideals must never be questioned. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

 

If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful when stepping on thin ice. Contrary to you, some people keep doing what they're doing in spite of criticism or differences of opinions. One such example would be anotak, whose work you yourself called... what was the word again? "Retarded" I think it was. Yeah, that was it, man.

 

Weird how some people don't drop everything and run... You on the other hand are trying to play the victim card in the face of what was a much more civil discussion than your "criticism" of somebody else's work could have ever hoped to be. But sure, try to make it seem like people who don't agree with your ideals, and dare say that, are the reason why you're dropping PrBoom's development. Good luck with that shtick.

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If it wasn't for Z's superior "new monsters" capability (decorate language for behaviors & critically; capability to add more new monsters beyond just replacing existing ones), I'd still be a PR main, no doubt.

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I prefer GZDoom because I like how it looks. I do feel a bit annoyed at how it changes some things though... Infinite height monsters not being one of those things, that I just consider a bug so eff it.

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1 hour ago, fraggle said:

I had no idea I have henchmen! That's awesome, it's like I'm a Batman villain.

Not until you force linear scaling to be always enabled in Chocolate Doom after a psychotic breakdown.

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1 hour ago, fraggle said:

I had no idea I have henchmen! That's awesome, it's like I'm a Batman villain.

 

In all honesty and for the record I don't really care about GZDoom even half as much as others here seem to. I think people seem to assume that because I wrote Chocolate Doom I'm some kind of intolerant extremist. Go back and read the comments I left here and decide for yourself I guess. Probably the biggest criticism I have of GZDoom is that the default mouse pointer is a severed bunny head because, well, it's just weird.

Haha, i had a giggle but yes. You are the villian GotDoom City needs.

 

Do note that i am speaking in a very general sense here and not just specific comments from this thread alone when i speak of the aforementioned pattern. Hell, we are at the point that we are dragging all the old cows from the mud again considering the Lilith incident was referenced as an argument to establish a wrong.

 

I hope you do know that i was not naming you because i think bad things about your port. The only beef i ever have against choco doom is that there isn't a brand of chocolate carrying DoomGuy as its namesake logo. ;)

 

20 minutes ago, Kapanyo said:

I feel for the OP right now

Same. But atleast his question has been answered. What is left is meta-bickering about the state of our little islands in the Doom realm.

 

Fortunately i live rent-free near the sea so i visit whenever i want to :P

 

Sadly, virtual hugs aren't going to solve this long lasting issue. I see it as brothers (or sisters, or transgenders) who have become embroiled with eachother and retaining their grudges, though they send eachother presents from time to time still.

 

All one can strive for, personally, is some kind of reassurance that those affected and those who have a higher bet in this poker game become aware of how silly and ultimately completely trite this pattern is.

 

That said, a part of me has to admit that without it, DoomWorld would:

  • Be a much cleaner place
  • Also not be DoomWorld.

Its the best of a terrible onset, really.

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1 minute ago, Redneckerz said:

brothers (or sisters, or transgenders enby siblings)

 

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I'm with Graf. As much as I loved classic Doom back in the day, having a more robust engine with more capabilities beyond simple graphic replacements is awesome. Without mods like Metroid Dreadnought, ww-diaz, City of the Damned or Void, I probably would have never gotten into modding because those mods showed me what is capable in the engine. Now there's much more advanced stuff floating around (DoomReal, Lithium, Hideous Destructor, Total Chaos) that push the engine even further.

 

This isn't an insult to anyone. Just my preference. Although I do fire up chocolate doom once in a while for that nostalgia factor of playing shareware Doom on a Gateway PC back in 1999 (born in 91 so I missed the 1993 hype train xD). I respect the players who love the unmodified Doom experience and want it preserved, but what's so wrong about having a port to push the boundaries? If it breaks compatibility, then what's the harm in just using another source port?

 

So to OP, my favorite port has always been Z/GZDoom because I like TCs and seeing how creative others can get with the tools they have now.

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Honestly I felt a bit for graf at the start of this thread but since reading his comments about conscious... "marketing" decisions and his blase treatment of demo compatibility in the port who's main point towards it is just that, it's hard for me to have any sympathy towards him. Like if you're gonna make something that's subtlely broken in the first place, (knowingly or not) then just leave it out there broken and appearing to be the latest version of something, then pick up your ball and leave... well just go ahead. In the meantime no new players will have any idea that what appears to be the latest version of prboom+ according to the naming scheme is broken. Yet another layer of obfuscation to the overall formula that playing doom requires a short class and certification. The treatment of prboom+ in particular is ghastly and only serves to hurt the community as a whole instead of the help a UMAPINFO could have brought, so in that sense this is another shot in the foot.

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I frankly have to say this, I think PrBoom+ wouldn't have a reason to be so important by now if vanilla Doom didn't include demos as a feature.

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4 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

How to make Doomworld go nuclear? Simple: ask harmless questions about source port compatibility and watch the bloodshed commence. We literally look like a group of insane fucking weirdos to ANY outsiders looking in. It’s kind of beautiful. My dysfunctional Doom family.

 

3 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Honestly I felt a bit for graf at the start of this thread but since reading his comments about conscious... "marketing" decisions and his blase treatment of demo compatibility in the port who's main point towards it is just that, it's hard for me to have any sympathy towards him. Like if you're gonna make something that's subtlely broken in the first place, (knowingly or not) then just leave it out there broken and appearing to be the latest version of something, then pick up your ball and leave... well just go ahead. In the meantime no new players will have any idea that what appears to be the latest version of prboom+ according to the naming scheme is broken. Yet another layer of obfuscation to the overall formula that playing doom requires a short class and certification. The treatment of prboom+ in particular is ghastly and only serves to hurt the community as a whole instead of the help a UMAPINFO could have brought, so in that sense this is another shot in the foot.



WdIeKEt.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Fonze said:

Like if you're gonna make something that's subtlely broken in the first place, (knowingly or not) then just leave it out there broken and appearing to be the latest version of something, then pick up your ball and leave... well just go ahead. In the meantime no new players will have any idea that what appears to be the latest version of prboom+ according to the naming scheme is broken.

 

Forgive me if I am wrong but AKAIK it is not the latest released version that is broken, but a commit made sometime after the last release that broke the demo compatibilty.

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9 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Forgive me if I am wrong but its not the latest released version that is broken, but a commit made sometime after the last release that broke the demo compatibilty.

 

Which also broke it accidentally rather than purposefully. I'm amazed to see people unironically believe Graf is sabotaging his own fork.

 

2 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Oh yeah, by the way.... If you think people are not going to voice their opinions, because you're working on something in your spare time, just like every mapper, modder, or texture/sprite artist does, I'm afraid you're out of luck. Devoting spare time to this game doesn't make you anything special, certainly not to the point where your points of views and ideals must never be questioned. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

 

If I were you, I'd be a bit more careful when stepping on thin ice. Contrary to you, some people keep doing what they're doing in spite of criticism or differences of opinions. One such example would be anotak, whose work you yourself called... what was the word again? "Retarded" I think it was. Yeah, that was it, man.

 

This, however, as indicated by plenty of posts in this topic, is no longer about voicing an opinion but instead outright accusing other port developers/maintainers of "dishonesty", "false advertising", taking stabs at their work, and attempts at forcing views on what should and shouldn't a port be, in addition to what aspects of Doom should be "preserved" and which ones should not, and then there's also the plain childish/entitled behavior.

 

These aren't opinions, and this isn't voicing criticism.

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I love how topic titles like these instantly create a Mortal Kombat and ends up in catfights

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2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

What they do however, is advertise themselves as ''the best way to play classic doom.'' This is not the same thing and i feel i should point this out.

It's in quote marks and in italic, meaning it's a citation, so I searched for the word "best" and I haven't found it. I also haven't found "classic Doom" either.

 

People keep repeating that ZDoom advertises itself as the best way to play classic Doom exactly the way it was in 1993 with perfect and absolute fidelity and... no? It actually doesn't. Must be the third time I link to https://zdoom.org/about but you can perhaps try looking at it. Even better, you can go to https://zdoom.org/w/index.php?title=ZDoom:About_ZDoom&action=history so as to see the version history of that web page since the zdoom.org site redesign in full transparency. Was there a time it said "best way to play classic Doom"?

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7 minutes ago, Gez said:

It's in quote marks and in italic, meaning it's a citation, so I searched for the word "best" and I haven't found it. I also haven't found "classic Doom" either.

 

People keep repeating that ZDoom advertises itself as the best way to play classic Doom exactly the way it was in 1993 with perfect and absolute fidelity and... no? It actually doesn't. Must be the third time I link to https://zdoom.org/about but you can perhaps try looking at it. Even better, you can go to https://zdoom.org/w/index.php?title=ZDoom:About_ZDoom&action=history so as to see the version history of that web page since the zdoom.org site redesign in full transparency. Was there a time it said "best way to play classic Doom"?

Remind me not to go on a limb here and cite where it came from (UndeadRyker) and, early mornings, assuming it is true.

 

Because reading it back now, he obviously referred to the about page and then derived his own conclusion out of it.

 

Silly me here, knowning its nonsense decides to assume its correct anyway and use it in italics so it becomes fact.

 

Insert imadeahugemistake.gif. Knowing it is owning it and i am definitely in the doghouse right now.

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Seriously, guys, I need to address you!

 

@Graf Zahl Wasn't it you who said, "The specs in Zdoom are not enough, are not ENOUGH, so I wan'ts more! Please, oh please, can I have more.?" I sympathize with you. You are the one who said armies could not eat chocolate Doom, because, it was and I quote, "still too vanilla." But batman wants clothes that fit, $%###$! Don't you forget, Internalized farts, external screaming.

 

@Nine Inch HeelsRemember your feeling when you were pregnant? Remember that? How you just wanted to eat Pringles and give your baby the best Sprite ads available? Then, when it finally was time, your fiance gave birth to a healthy, 22 lb Iguana named Arielle Smith? Remember that, how magical you felt? Keep that in mind. How could you forget taking care of that Iguana, all the diapers, and feedings, and trips to the market. Then, how could you forget Arielle's first words, which came out when you were preparing you and your fiance's dinner. Arielle spoke, in a high pitched, yet authoritative voice, "If you or a loved one have been diagnosed with Mesothelioma, you may be...", and you cried, and cried, all day long, tears of joy? NEVER forget that.

 

@UndeadRyker Remember when you were fifteen, and you opened the dishwasher only to find Terry Crews inside, wearing nothing but a diaper and frilly lingerie. You gave us all nightmares for that, you know. How DARE you say zdoom is the "Hungry Man's equivalent to basic Nestle microwavable dinners." Oh, and don't forget that when Terry got out of the dishwasher, he started chewing on all the wires to the appliances, and instead of calling the cops, you took a selfie and posted "TERRY Cruise in ma house, dudez!"

 

In all seriousness, let's stop this fighting.

 

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14 hours ago, Edward850 said:

@Graf Zahl Maybe instead of defending the bushiodo honor of GZDoom, your self-proposed continuation of PrBoom+, a source port that you are aware is intent for demo compatibility, has some demo compatibility issues from your changes that you are yet to address or respond to: 

While I'd like to think you wouldn't stoop that low, I hope this isn't a worrying trend of you trying to sabotage other ports.

That accusation is crazy and absurd. I don't know when the problem started but in theory it can't be the latest commit by fabian since the condition includes !demorecording && !demoplayback. May be it's even a compiler thing. The source is public, being a programmer yourself before doing such claim you'd have done some investigation IMO.

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4 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

why there is a divide between ZDoom and DoomWorld.

 

 

There's no divide between "ZDoom" and Doomworld. There are however quite a few ZDoom mods and devs who behave very antagonistic towards other parts of this community, or even towards their own users if they dare to use features in a way that is "not allowed".

 

And apparently the way to win the hearts and minds of the community is to shitpost here on Doomworld, or hurl insults at other ports' developers in their own release threads. With as current sad lowest point "Lilith", where The Usual Suspect threw a shameful hissy fit and I had to give a warning to four (yeah, FOUR) other ZDoom mods/admins over their behaviour here. You don't see me or @Linguica engaging in such behaviour over at the ZDoom forums. So where is this disrespect coming from, to just behave like that over here?

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