why do people care about hitler and medkits so much?

[insertwackynamehere]

Everyone acting like the Red Cross symbol isn’t used on real life first aid kits is making me feel like I’m going crazy, so I went to get my first aid kit and sure enough it has a Red Cross on it. And it’s sponsored by the American Red Cross lol. I guess that explains it. Also, I think Johnson and Johnson used the Red Cross as well, it looks like that caused some legal drama also.

[LeoNatan]

1 minute ago, seed said:

It's not the publisher's fault though. It's because it's the only way to make it available in as many countries as possible without risking it potentially getting banned.

 

Besides, the censorship in the new IWADs isn't even that bad to warrant hatred for something relatively insignificant to the overall experience. Plus, the OG IWADs are still available on Steam and GOG, it's not worth losing sleep and getting up in arms against a modified version that is not meant to replace the original in any capacity.

Not true. They can release different versions in different countries (like they did a cut New Order/New Colossus in some countries, and a regular in most countries). This is just laziness and scrooging by the publisher in this case.

[Decay]

1 hour ago, LeoNatan said:

Shill much?

Doom can be played just fine in its original form. None of the legal excuses should be a concern to customers, who need to demand the highest quality product, not the most convenient to a greedy and lazy publisher.

>high quality product

>doom

 

lol

 

Also, customers do not need to demand anything. Publishers put out an offering and people will either accept (purchase) or decline (not purchase). Simple as that. You aren't entitled to anything, and the publishers aren't obliged to give you anything more than what's offered in the package.

 

I almost read more of your posts but then I realized they could be summed up in a simple word expression. "Waaahhh". You're thinking way too hard about something that literally does not matter. You should turn your eyes away from the computer, you might find a real life waiting for you.

 

[LeoNatan]

@Decay And yet, here you are, indulging in the same "Waaaahhh", as are many other people. Clearly this topic is important to people. Dismissing it with corporate shilling will not get you the result you are asking for. Grow up.

[Allard]

5 minutes ago, LeoNatan said:

Not true. They can release different versions in different countries (like they did a cut New Order/New Colossus in some countries, and a regular in most countries). This is just laziness and scrooging by the publisher in this case.

Here's a smoldering hot take:
Two secret levels in DOOM II simply aren't worth all the headache it'd bring them and everyone would do the same in their position.

 

BTW, I'm hope you're boycotting post-1.4 versions of DOOM 1 as well, E1M4 and all.

[seed]

7 minutes ago, LeoNatan said:

Not true. They can release different versions in different countries (like they did a cut New Order/New Colossus in some countries, and a regular in most countries).

 

They can, but they decided to take a different approach instead by giving everyone the same experience as opposed to regional releases.

 

Don't like it? No problemo, don't buy it, and stick to the original, which is still available, it's really that simple.

[Quasar]

Multiply the revision system storage and workload for assets by two, multiply the amount of certification work by many times (separate SKUs for games entail separate builds, which entail separate title configurations and separate cert processes on several of the platforms Doom and Doom II have been released on), and multiply the amount of QA work by two (Bethesda QA tests every build variant). All so a small subset of the players can enjoy Hitler's mustache. What a fucking waste of human effort that would be, not to mention money.

 

Source: I work in the game industry. I just finished a title you might know about, it's called Doom 64.

[LeoNatan]

Just now, Allard said:

BTW, I'm hope you're boycotting post-1.4 versions of DOOM 1 as well, E1M4 and all.

I have had a patch that restores the swastika for more than 15 years. 😂
In case anyone wonders, not because I am pro-Nazi 🙄 but because this is what Romero intended the level to look like.

[randomgamerguy1997]

15 hours ago, ZealknightMR said:

for most people, it's not strictly about the medkits and hitler. People generally like to see their favorite past games remain intact without having the original content changed. If they were to change the zombiemans hair from green to blonde or change the imps from brown and grey, there would plenty of people complaining about the changes because "it's not faithful to the original content".

 

That is my general thinking as well. These classic games should be kept intact like the original SW trilogy should've been.

[Decay]

4 minutes ago, LeoNatan said:

@Decay And yet, here you are, indulging in the same "Waaaahhh", as are many other people. Clearly this topic is important to people. Dismissing it with corporate shilling will not get you the result you are asking for. Grow up.

its okay man i can feel the tears of rage seeping through the forums already, don't have a heart attack

 

[Rainne]

7 minutes ago, fraggle said:

Please read the FAQ. 

Alright, I'll concede that. (Although then I think stimpacks/medikits should use a white cross on green background, like that text says, rather than a Dr Mario pill, like the associated WAD has.)

 

The key point that convinced me: that the Red Cross/Crescent is a symbol of neutrality rather than of healing per se.

 

That said, I maintain that the red cross graphic on stimpacks/medikits is still fine; no one's going to confuse it for a real-world situation. Perhaps they could add an in-game option to choose which set to use, with white-on-green as default, or red-on-white for the original experience. That should satisfy both camps.

 

For the Wolfenstein levels, just keep the original graphics: everyone knows who that guy in the paintings is supposed to be and there's no point insulting anyone's intelligence by pretending otherwise. (Real-world modern-day nazis are already used to using discreet messaging in public; they will know who it is too.) Perhaps tweak the intro text to make the Wolfenstein shoutout clearer, being 25 years removed from when Wolfenstein 3D was fresh in players' minds.

[fraggle]

17 minutes ago, LeoNatan said:

Not true. They can release different versions in different countries (like they did a cut New Order/New Colossus in some countries, and a regular in most countries). This is just laziness and scrooging by the publisher in this case.

It's probably easy to call that lazy if you've never worked in the industry or shipped a game. It's not as easy as I imagine you think - you're potentially talking about doubling the QA and testing load.

 

You draw an analogy with the modern Wolfenstein games and I think it's a comparison that lacks a sense of perspective. With those the cuts are related to the core subject matter of the game (ie. Nazis) while with Doom II it's just a cute Easter egg - a couple of secret levels that are a detour from the main progression of the game. I don't blame them for making the decision.

10 minutes ago, LeoNatan said:

I have had a patch that restores the swastika for more than 15 years. 😂
In case anyone wonders, not because I am pro-Nazi 🙄 but because this is what Romero intended the level to look like.

Nope, Romero removed the swastika himself:

Quote

Yes, there is a swastika in one of the levels, one of my levels to be exact, but I removed it shortly after the game was released because people were upset that an evil symbol was in a cute kid's game (the changed version is in the screenshot). It was a premonition of things to come, namely, Wolfenstein 3D. I also put a swastika in DOOM's E1M4 as a Wolf3D reference, but I changed it later for the exact same reason.

 

[Allard]

26 minutes ago, Rainne said:

(Although then I think stimpacks/medikits should use a white cross on green background, like that text says, rather than a Dr Mario pill, like the associated WAD has.)

The latest patch replaced the pill with a green cross on white background.

26 minutes ago, Rainne said:

Perhaps tweak the intro text to make the Wolfenstein shoutout clearer, being 25 years removed from when Wolfenstein 3D was fresh in players' minds.

Wouldn't that be violating the artistic intention of the original?
Also, the level is literally called "Wolfenstein".

26 minutes ago, Rainne said:

Perhaps they could add an in-game option to choose which set to use, with white-on-green as default, or red-on-white for the original experience. That should satisfy both camps.

They couldn't. It's not a question of what they want, it's a question of what won't get them in a lawsuit by the Red Cross organization. Which made its stance on the usage of its symbol in video games very clear.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Allard

[Cacodemon345]

A brief note I am leaving here: Paper Mario 2's European release removed the "one hands-up" animation when Mario says "yes" in that game to avoid issues with it representing a Nazi salute. NSMBWii's European release had some changes to English text to avoid vulgarity in UK English.

 

Doom 2's re-release removed the Nazi-symbols to avoid getting delisted from Nintendo's European Switch store, I believe.

 

Also, can people stop shouting out about Nazi-symbols being removed? We all should be at least glad of the fact that the Doom 2 re-release at least changed the Nazi-symbols to reference Wolf 2013, as a sign that Bethesda at least cares a little bit about Wolfenstein franchise.

[fraggle]

49 minutes ago, Allard said:

it's a question of what won't get them in a lawsuit by the Red Cross organization

No - legally speaking the danger is actually that they could face criminal fines since it's a symbol protected by international treaties. 

 

For example, in the US:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706

[reflex17]

21 minutes ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Paper Mario 2's European release removed the "one hands-up" animation when Mario says "yes" in that game to avoid issues with it representing a Nazi salute.

 

 

Exactly. "Bob the Builder" was changed in Japan because the character has 4 fingers in the cartoon style but in Japan missing digits can mean that you're a gangster. It's not so much doing things to make sense or censor it for no reason, it's to go in line with local laws and what's acceptable. A single product is much easier to sell than something that has to get updated for more than one region.

[Nevander]

Wow, it wasn't me this time!

[Allard]

29 minutes ago, fraggle said:

No - legally speaking the danger is actually that they could face criminal fines since it's a symbol protected by international treaties. 

 

For example, in the US:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706

Whoa, so it's even more severe than I thought.

[Edward850]

3 hours ago, LeoNatan said:

@Quasar They can't, legally. The license of DosBox doesn't allow it running on a machine that the user cannot swap binaries or DLLs (SOs). That's why those idiots were hired to port it to Unity (🤦‍♂️). I'm surprised they didn't port it to JavaScript; surely they would have been able to hire even cheaper talent than the Unity ones.

Can we bring back moderator challenges? I want to see @LeoNatan port Doom to every console and mobile phone himself entirely from scratch. It's up to him to decide which frontend to use but demo support must be maintained for the attract loop as well as splitscreen support and and the ability to download and run addons. He also claims this to be cheap and lazy so he has 1 month to do it. 2 if anybody is feeling kind. 

 

Also no using code from any existing source ports, as that would be a GPL violation which would be an instant forfeit. 

[Spectre01]

3 hours ago, reflex17 said:

 

 

Exactly. "Bob the Builder" was changed in Japan because the character has 4 fingers in the cartoon style but in Japan missing digits can mean that you're a gangster. It's not so much doing things to make sense or censor it for no reason, it's to go in line with local laws and what's acceptable. A single product is much easier to sell than something that has to get updated for more than one region.

Don't want kids suspecting that Bob's building job is just a front to obscure his role as a major Yakuza mob boss.

[reflex17]

8 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

Don't want kids suspecting that Bob's building job is just a front to obscure his role as a major Yakuza mob boss.

 

Hey man, I just pour the concrete. <_<

[Mortrixs19]

In my opinion I did dislike both the pill and the Nazi censorship. Why?

 

The pill looks damn ugly I'm glad they changed it back to a cross but green, which looks better imo.

 

Now the Nazis, the reason why I disliked that they were removed is because it takes out the ''joke'' of the level. The secret levels without the Nazi symbols and the SS officers has no charm, It's dull and it looks bad, just a bunch of stone and wooden walls with a bunch of zombies in it. The fact that they took the music and replaced it with ''Doom'' is out of place, and they had the balls to play the track twice both in Map31 and Map32.

 

So basically, if you take the Nazis out of the secret levels you take the thing that made them special and you end up having a large amount corridors filled with zombies, nothing interesting.

[ENEMY!!!]

On 1/17/2020 at 1:19 AM, ZealknightMR said:

for most people, it's not strictly about the medkits and hitler. People generally like to see their favorite past games remain intact without having the original content changed. If they were to change the zombiemans hair from green to blonde or change the imps from brown and grey, there would plenty of people complaining about the changes because "it's not faithful to the original content".

 

How much do you want to bet if Square Enix decided to change Cloud's hair from blonde to brown that there would be an outrage over the change? You could also ask the Sonic fanbase about why they hated Sega when they changed Sonic's eyes to green. :p

Agreed, a similar debate for example rages about George Lucas's changes to the Star Wars movies in his subsequent re-releases.  That's a bigger deal to me as unlike the Doom games it's increasingly difficult to find releases of the unedited originals.

 

As it stands I am fine with what's been done for the latest re-releases of Doom (especially as the changes made to this version strike me as improvements over those for the BFG edition), as long as we don't get clampdowns against the sale of or, worse still, ownership of copies of the original IWADs.  The latter would bother me, but as yet there hasn't been any compelling evidence of that happening or being set to happen - indeed as was documented on another thread the opposite has happened in Germany, where the original DOOM2.WAD as well as Wolfenstein 3D were very recently removed from their ban list.

[HeyItsDuke]

On 1/17/2020 at 4:35 AM, CyberDreams said:

If you guys "really" cared about censorship, you'd have to play Doom below v1.4 as the swastika easter egg in E1M4 was removed but i highly doubt anyone still plays v1.2 and then jumps to The Ultimate Doom to finish the rest of the episodes. Just sayin'...

I mean, if someone cared enough, it wouldn't be very hard to rip the uncensored map and replace the censored one with it while playing the latest version. Hell, you could have BOTH in if you really wanted to but that'd be kinda stupid.

 

Which is exactly why I'd do it.

[Allard]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:29 AM, Mortrixs19 said:

In my opinion I did dislike both the pill and the Nazi censorship. Why?

 

The pill looks damn ugly I'm glad they changed it back to a cross but green, which looks better imo.

In the newest ports, this is exactly what they did. 

 

On 1/19/2020 at 1:29 AM, Mortrixs19 said:

 

Now the Nazis, the reason why I disliked that they were removed is because it takes out the ''joke'' of the level. The secret levels without the Nazi symbols and the SS officers has no charm, It's dull and it looks bad, just a bunch of stone and wooden walls with a bunch of zombies in it. The fact that they took the music and replaced it with ''Doom'' is out of place, and they had the balls to play the track twice both in Map31 and Map32.

In the newest ports they are back in an edited form: the music is back, the SS officers are back (but had their alert voice line edited to say "Schultzkampfer", all the swastikas were replaced with a triangular symbols from the German versions of newer Wolfenstein games and Hitler portraits had his 'stache removed. Now they are clearly recognizable as Wolf3D assets, albeit edited. 

[Rainne]

Apparently the standard symbol for health/healing is a white cross on a green background. I whipped these up according to that, and a corresponding WAD. For lack of a faded green to blend the edges of the cross with, I had to use a vivid lime green shade; but I find it makes these stand out amidst the carnage. They also look more "medical"/hospital-y, which suits their purpose.

 

Although then I wonder, why would modern hospital supplies be available in Hell? Perhaps there should be alternate, more "magical" versions of these for use in Hell-style levels, for the same reason they use skull keys rather than keycards. (Perhaps crib the Crystal Vial and Quartz Flask sprites from Heretic/Hexen?) Conversely, the Soul Sphere is pretty much exactly that already for 100% health boost, so perhaps a corresponding mundane "Megahealth" item for human/techbase settings? (The Soul Sphere hasn't been a 1-up since the Alpha days anyway.)

 

So much for the Red Cross making things simpler! 😖

medgreen.zip

[HeyItsDuke]

7 hours ago, Rainne said:

Apparently the standard symbol for health/healing is a white cross on a green background. I whipped these up according to that, and a corresponding WAD. For lack of a faded green to blend the edges of the cross with, I had to use a vivid lime green shade; but I find it makes these stand out amidst the carnage. They also look more "medical"/hospital-y, which suits their purpose.

 

So much for the Red Cross making things simpler! 😖

medgreen.zip

I really like the look of that. Might start using that instead.

 

7 hours ago, Rainne said:

Although then I wonder, why would modern hospital supplies be available in Hell? Perhaps there should be alternate, more "magical" versions of these for use in Hell-style levels, for the same reason they use skull keys rather than keycards. (Perhaps crib the Crystal Vial and Quartz Flask sprites from Heretic/Hexen?) Conversely, the Soul Sphere is pretty much exactly that already for 100% health boost, so perhaps a corresponding mundane "Megahealth" item for human/techbase settings? (The Soul Sphere hasn't been a 1-up since the Alpha days anyway.)

 

That's a really good idea actually, it'd make more sense anyway.

[incel]

I tell you why.

 

In 90's id Software used to be about nazis and satanism, a big "fuck you" to "normies". Now their most fundamental games are a cheap entertainment for an average consumer.

 

All the edge of Wolf 3D is that you're mofo, who slains nazi troops and kills mecha-fucking-hitler; remove this premise and it's just Hover Tank 3D nobody remembers or cares about. Who wants to shoot generic joes? Like fucking who? But when you see that they are literal fucking nazis with the fucking hitler, it's a fucking deal. Look no futher (better not), but for a game Hentai WW2, it's utter trash, yet it has tons of "mostly positive" reviews, due to it bizarre nature (and anime tits probably). This developer has other trash-tier games, but the one with a fucking Hitler is the most popular.

 

And when they remove nazi-related stuff from levels, they remove the very essence of W3D, the very thing it left a print in the memory, and when you shit on the childhood of small minority, this minority becomes very vocal.

 

As for Red Cross. Fuck their copyright policy. I understand, when they're against placing it on combat units and military shit, but on fucking medpacks? They need to come to their fucking sences and understand that " red cross" is no longer their symbol, as it happend with xerox, polaroid, style... some other much better examples I don't remember (dumpster, band-aid, frisbee, jeep). You see "red cross", you immediately know, what the item does, you see "pill" — like what the fuck it means? You can make the game be approachable right from the start or you can fuck the player. Why would you choose the 2nd option if this is not VR sex game?

 

Also, red crosses feel themselves pretty safe in L4D. No one cares. But in Doom, it's a big deal! Same goes for Hitler in Sniper Elite, for example, or swatikas in CoD (they must have them, right? I didn't play it). Like, why's Doom the game they chose to purge? The historic relic, the Earth's treasure, the most influencial game there was (and probably is)? Are they plain nuts? Or are they butt-hurt nazis?

Edited January 22, 2020 by incel : More dakka

[Gez]

33 minutes ago, incel said:

In 90's id used to be about nazis and satanism, a big "fuck you" to "normies".

Ah yes, Commander Keen and Rescue Rover, famous for their nazis and satanism.

 

34 minutes ago, incel said:

Who wants to shoot generic joes? Like fucking who?

Everyone who helped make "generic military shooter" the dominant form of FPS games? The stuff that sells the most?

 

37 minutes ago, incel said:

Hentai WW2, it's utter trash, but it has tonns of mostly positive reviews, because of motherfucking Hitler

I hadn't even heard about it, am not surprised you did though, but I'm gonna tell you the hentai part is what's selling.

 

38 minutes ago, incel said:

And when they remove nazi-related stuff from levels, they remove the very essence of W3D

But we're not talking about Wolf 3D here, we're talking about Doom II.

 

39 minutes ago, incel said:

and when you shit on the childhood of small minority, this minority becomes very vocal.

Oh come on, get fucked with this lame-ass shit.

 

40 minutes ago, incel said:

As for Red Cross. Fuck their copyright policy.

It's not a fucking copyright policy, you ignorant dumbass.

 

41 minutes ago, incel said:

They need to come to their fucking sences and understand that " red cross" is no longer their symbol, as it happend with xerox, polaroid, style...

Those are trademarks. The Red Cross is also not a question of trademarks. You vacuous idiot.

[Maximum Matt]

Nazis gotta screw everything up, don't they