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Archaeo

DeePsea around the corner

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ravage said:

Sigh, why couldn't DCK be for windows.(Oh, wait. I know why. The guy who created DCK said that he wouldn't because he hates windows.

I've never heard Ben say that and for sure that's not true. See next.

He's a linux guy and made this thing for DOS. He also got his ass fired from iD Software for some reason, and went through a few jobs, fired from each- so I'v heard)

Ben created WorldCraft - a respected WINDOWS editor for Quake# (so clearly he does not hate windows). Then Valve hired him and bought the rights to WorldCraft. After that I dunno what happened:)

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pming said:

But Mr.Williston doesn't really "make money" via WadAuthor.

First off all, that's TOTALLY beside the point. Secondly, you presume I "make money" differently from John.

We've both said repeatedly that we make very little here on DW. IIRC, John said like 10 cents/hr and I've said 50 cents/hr. Neither one can be called "make money".

He developed it no differently than I did - he invested a huge amount of time. I was there when he posted on Compuserve asking about interest in a new Windows editor (DeeP, DCK and some others were already out - but he didn't really know and understand DeeP and DCK editing styles).

If WadAuthor was a MAJOR source of his bread and butter, I'm sure he would have been more inclined to sell it at a higher price, or with cost-upgrades, etc.

That's just not true - it's your imagination at work here. His idea was that people would be honest and actually register. His intention was to make money - all shareware authors do it on that premise. It never happened because of the way he packaged the shareware and his "free forever" marketing mistake. Here on DW I discussed this issue with him. I was amazed at his total lack of understanding the basic problem in his approach - his rationale notwithstanding - he was naive. Then he saw the exact post I told him about. His comment said it all - go dig it up.

In any software product, one has to guess what the response will be and decide on price and updates and all that stuff. From that point on, time decides who made the right decision:)

If there were no more updates for DeepSea ever again it would be no skin off my teeth.

So why bitch about updates? You are perfectly happy with "no more updates". Using this forum to do what you do is rather nasty (besides giving misleading information).

I'd rather the updates be for "full point releases" and not based on time.

How do you know they are not "full point releases"? By the version number? A version number means absolutely nothing really. A version number is whatever I (any author) wants to make it. What one needs to look at is if new features are worth the upgrade, NOT if the version number is now satisfactory. It's easy to solve your complaint, I'll just bump up the big numbers each time.

I do free updates for 6 months, which usually covers at least 1 release if not 2. One has to email though, I don't babysit.

Again, I have to point out that John doesn't feed himself and his family with WadAuthor...and he never intended to do so. He made WA for himself, thought it was cool, and decided to share it with the community...and maybe make a few bucks on the side.

And that's EXACTLY what I did. Read the DeePsea help file for once. You'll see exactly how it was developed. The first program I did was DeePBSP (called TBSP), which was about 50 times faster than any nodebuilder on the planet. It meant you could build nodes in 1 minutes vs 15 minutes or more back on a 486. I even licensed this to the other Doomeditor (the real DOOMED - the visual basic one). It was "voluntary" shareware. I got $15 total. So I knew that wouldn't work.

As for the other points, no different than me again. Except I actually committed -and- followed through - even though the money is negligable.

True enough, but as I said, he wasn't in it for the money. He had a "real job" for that.

John was in in for the "money" as much as I was. Absolutely no different. If he wasn't in it for the "money", he never would have bothered with the registration and time limit now would he? You are trying to change the facts that clearly say otherwise.

I'd work on my own web site, or a friends, or a relatives. I did that for free. It was done on my "own time". As a matter of fact, we (the company I was with at the time) *did* do some work for free. Actual, client work.

First off, what you do for "friends" is something everyone does. Not relevant at all. Why mention it?

Secondly, for REAL money for my PAYING job, I *do* work for free. But again that is NOT the same as the subject matter. Heck, I make in 1 day what DeePsea makes me in 2 months. So I (and any company) can give lots of slack where the money is good.

Third - I give free updates all the time, I worked with you as I was making changes. In fact, that should have told you I wasn't doing it full-time since you kept asking when I'd be done. No mention of that at all in your post. That's just not right Paul.

What Mr.Williston knows is that he's not going to get anything for his efforts as he became aware of the "intangible" mindset here - something that is not lost on me either.

with you, however, DeepSea is your only source of income (or at least a significant part of it), right?

Wrong. That's the problem with you Paul. You are so immersed in your own rational that you presume without asking or thinking. It's a simple courtesy that one should always extend before jumping on some bandwagon - technical or subjective.

DeePsea was written for FUN - in my spare time - to learn Windows programming. I experiment all the time with new unique ways of doing things that are not done by any other program. E.g, the toolbars are 100% my own code - no MS libraries involved - and caused me some grief. But I enjoyed creating them.

An "update" should be at least a full 0.05 increment

Like I said, you put way too much into a version number. It's just a number Paul, nothing more. Depends on how I feel that day as to what version number I give it:) I appreciate your business, just not the slanted and mistaken posts you do on DW. If there's a software issue with DeePsea, you should always email the author first. Not doing so and them just using your imagination is just not right.

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I enjoy Deepsea and would gladly pay for an upgrade for quality software made by a fellow doomer. I have TBSP for my old renegade DoomED, it's it is very fast! but it bombs on huge levels. Prolly cuase it's older than dirt. Come to think of it i'm gonna try to update that nodebuilder, cause I still use that editor.

EDIT: damn i can't find TBSP on Deep's site. Anyone know where it is?

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DeePsea was written for FUN - in my spare time - to learn Windows programming. I experiment all the time with new unique ways of doing things that are not done by any other program. E.g, the toolbars are 100% my own code - no MS libraries involved - and caused me some grief. But I enjoyed creating them.

If it was done for "fun" then why do you need to receive money for it?

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Hiya.

Well, I just spent about an hour replying to deep about his "post". Then I thought to myself, "Why bother?".

deep:
Sorry if I touched on a nerve. That wasn't my intention. DeepSea is a decent program. You do it for fun. Fine, have people pay you to have fun. Knock yourself out.

Actually, there is one thing I want to respond to. :)

-------------------
with you, however, DeepSea is your only source of income (or at least a significant part of it), right?

Wrong. That's the problem with you Paul. You are so immersed in your own rational that you presume without asking or thinking. It's a simple courtesy that one should always extend before jumping on some bandwagon - technical or subjective.
--------------------

You totally missed that "?" didn't you? That little squiggly line with the dot under it is a question mark. It means that I was asking a question. You say that I "presume without asking or thinking". Hello??? I *did* ask...remember the "?"? You sort of answered the question with "Wrong.". But then you go on to berrate me and insult me. Who's the one ignoring "simple courtesy" now? (Note: that last sentance was a rhetorical question).

A more courteous and professional way for you to have answered that would have been:
"Incorrect. DeepSea only brings in a trickle of income. The majority of my income comes from [insert whatever you do here]."

No need to get all huffy and insulting! Sheesh.

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Um, I don’t mean to interrupt this stimulating argument but I have a quick little question about deepsea. It’s mostly a question to you deep. Is it possible to configure the mouse controls etc. for editing levels in deepsea?

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