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BetaMarine

DoomerWorld made me stop caring about what "Classic" fans think of Doom Eternal.

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1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

Doom and 2016 are way, WAY more related to fan wads, Brutal Doom and the infamous comic book than the first two games...


...They are like one big and expensive teenager power fantasy fan fiction which uses a lot of Brutal Doom and modern fps games mechanics as influences instead of the original games, with the tone of the comic book out of all things...

They are not bad games, they are just not Doom, we are not getting that quality ever again...

Is just impossible to please everyone, but they made a lot of questionable choices in mechanics, level design, aesthetic, etc, and personally i need something else than just pretty graphics to keep me playing, there is a reason why Doom is still being played 20 years after its release, that is gonna be played 20 years after now, and that is not something that is gonna happen with the new Dooms.



So because it's not like Doom 3 it's not a Doom?

This it's the best FPS of almost 5 years  and if you don't see the Quality of Gameplay, Level Desing, Lore and Aesthethic because it's not longer in a space ship where it's all dark and spooky. It's just not you kind of game, but it's (And will) be one of the betters Doom that New iD will ship for this generation.

And not, im not trink their are trying to please everybody, because im see they had this idea in Doom 2016 but was hard to do without the fundation of a succesfull game and fan base. That sorry but at the moment DOOM 3 or DOOM 2 don't hold for it as rigth now it's Doom Eternal.

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1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

They are not bad games, they are just not Doom, we are not getting that quality ever again.

Under Whose authority again? sorry kid but you dont have any authoirty on what Doom is or isn't

1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

there is a reason why Doom is still being played 20 years after its release, that is gonna be played 20 years after now, and that is not something that is gonna happen with the new Dooms.

Can you also predict when Half life 3 is going to come out with that Future telling skills you have there?

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8 hours ago, D88M3R said:

Is just impossible to please everyone, but they made a lot of questionable choices in mechanics, level design, aesthetic, etc, and personally i need something else than just pretty graphics to keep me playing, there is a reason why Doom is still being played 20 years after its release, that is gonna be played 20 years after now, and that is not something that is gonna happen with the new Dooms.

Your assessment of the game's design is flawed. You don't know what made Doom great and are just operating on blind bias. 

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10 hours ago, D88M3R said:

Doom and 2016 are way, WAY more related to fan wads, Brutal Doom and the infamous comic book than the first two games.
They are like one big and expensive teenager power fantasy fan fiction which uses a lot of Brutal Doom and modern fps games mechanics as influences instead of the original games, with the tone of the comic book out of all things.
An ideal modern Doom would be a balanced mix of Doom 2016 with Doom 3 to put it briefly, instead they went too much towards one side, they went too over the top in some aspects.
And i get what they are trying to do, but it just does not work, it does not feel like the logical evolution of the franchise but like a big and very dumb thing that thinks of itself as totally badass but is actually kinda meh and boring, not to mention repetitive.
They are not bad games, they are just not Doom, we are not getting that quality ever again.

Oh, and they are trying to please everyone at the same time, all kinds of the fanbase, going as far as contradicting the own game mechanics and story that they want to give, a good example of it is the ridiculous "we make fun of the ridiculous exposition scenes in games where you have to stand still and get bored until they end, while we do that exact same thing at the same time".

 

Is just impossible to please everyone, but they made a lot of questionable choices in mechanics, level design, aesthetic, etc, and personally i need something else than just pretty graphics to keep me playing, there is a reason why Doom is still being played 20 years after its release, that is gonna be played 20 years after now, and that is not something that is gonna happen with the new Dooms.

You should settle on that post count lol, also don't mean to be rude but reading your comment felt like watching those random youtube game rants (for better or for worse)

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The funniest part about these people complaining about Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal is that most of them weren't even born when Doom 1 and Doom 2 came out. Fucking posers. Fuck 'em.

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Just put your comments unfiltered, no need to bring up the whole "this isn't how doom is meant to be" thing into it.

Edited by sluggard

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Didn´t ID Software say, that the Doom comic was the inspiration for the glory kills? Also, I´ve started playing classic Doom in 2010 and honestly, I always imagined that meele attacks (There were also the fists in Doom) would fit the whole atmosphere in Doom a lot.

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I'd argue Doom is in a better state than Star Wars, honestly.

Say what you want about the new games, whether you're factually right or wrong, being picky of something pointless or highlight something meaningfull, or misrepresenting a certain point of view or articulating it well, there could be some stuff i can agree with and even i have some things i don't agree with.

But at least the devs have some passion and effort into these games and are trying to gain both the new and old audiences.

You it was well recieved by the old blood when we've got mods inspired by the new games and people mixing them up.

There's still a lot of good ideas and concepts.

 

Star Wars as a whole wasn't always perfect and at times, feels a bit overhyped.

It isn't like the ultimate representation of films/movies as a medium.

However, George Lucas still put some effort and planning into working on the franchise and the franchise still has some interesting and iconic aspects to it.

The recent like for the prequels could either be ironic "so bad it's good" meme based or people thinking some ideas had potential, even in a sea of dumb stuff and poor execution.

And with the expanded universe, we got some good and bad out of different people.

 

Disney Star Wars, i don't think it had that much planning behind it.

JJ Abrams even said "fuck it" during some interview about how he would deal with RoS, while Rian Johnson interfearing with the trilogy in the middle obviously caused more damage than it already had.

The movies had "tighter"/yearly release dates like Call of Duty because they wanted to make Star Wars close to the MCU i guess.

Apparently Solo: A Star Wars Story was supposed to be different but Disney or some execs didn't let the directors do the movie the way they wanted it to be originally. (this was also a problem in the MCU)

I remember hearing they had multiple endings for Rise of Skywalker and the one we got was supposed to be the "best recieved" from some test audience.

I also recall Lucas not enjoying the movies that much and both the older and newer actors didn't seem to like it either, from Mark Hamill to John Boyega.

There's also Carrie Fisher and Peter Cushing being CGI revived in the new movies, meaning they even went that far into using the likenesses of dead actors.

Wasn't there also someone complaining about the lack of source material after the decanonization of the expanded universe who was also blamed for a twist in RoS?

 

I might be misremembering some of this but if i got it all right, then the point is clear: Star Wars became a mess when a lot of fans and even random movie goers don't seem to like anymore.

Not because of "difference" or "too much the same" but because it had actual problems that could even be studied in the future.

And rabid fans aside, i feel like i've seen worse from people defending these movies, like the biggest corporation that probably owns the planet somehow needs it.

 

ZeniMax has its own history of scummyness too but so far, i haven't seen a major tragedy happen to Doom aside from the multiplayer and the early release of the console classic Doom ports, while under them. (unless there is something i'm missing out)

 

I guess in someway the comments of "just pop corn but with some nutrition to it" make sense in some way.

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22 hours ago, D88M3R said:

Oh, and they are trying to please everyone at the same time, all kinds of the fanbase, going as far as contradicting the own game mechanics and story that they want to give, a good example of it is the ridiculous "we make fun of the ridiculous exposition scenes in games where you have to stand still and get bored until they end, while we do that exact same thing at the same time".

 

Try a little harder, dude. The times in the game that they do this are for the most part, very brief. And after the first two levels, the remaining instances of it are *very* few and far between. There's more forced exposition in the first two levels than in almost the entire rest of the game combined, and even then, the exposition in the first two levels is not a ridiculous amount. And after the first two levels, the only somewhat lengthy exposition segments in the entire rest of the game are the sequence where Olivia reroutes the power to the Argent Tower, and your meeting with Hayden later on in ARC. That's it. In a 12-15 hour game, there's probably a grand total of 6-8 minutes of unskippable, 'stand here until I'm done talking'-dialogue.

 

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Something i remember was Hugo Martin saying that he even read the negative comments some people make because they came from passion.

 

At like 1:20:25

 

Reminds me of a similar comment from Henry Cavill about the Witcher show.

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On 2/13/2020 at 11:29 PM, jamondemarnatural said:



So because it's not like Doom 3 it's not a Doom?

This it's the best FPS of almost 5 years  and if you don't see the Quality of Gameplay, Level Desing, Lore and Aesthethic because it's not longer in a space ship where it's all dark and spooky. It's just not you kind of game, but it's (And will) be one of the betters Doom that New iD will ship for this generation.

And not, im not trink their are trying to please everybody, because im see they had this idea in Doom 2016 but was hard to do without the fundation of a succesfull game and fan base. That sorry but at the moment DOOM 3 or DOOM 2 don't hold for it as rigth now it's Doom Eternal.

 

I never said that (but i am currently playing Doom 3 for the first time ever and boy does it feel a lot more like Doom than D16, i am also playing Painkiller, D16 inspiration source)

Nobody seems to get what i am saying, i have said several tiems that D16 is not a bad game, but is just not Doom because it has nothing of Doom in it, and is not great either, is just ok, but i find really odd that a game 25 years older is better, you mention level design among other things and Doom 1 and 2 level design is way better than D16 level design! i know that technology advances make developers focus on that instead on the creative and artistic aspects of it, but really they have no excuse.

It is one on the best fps in the last years indeed, but that speaks of how bad most games are today, not of how good Doom 2016 is :/

 

On 2/14/2020 at 12:03 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

Under Whose authority again? sorry kid but you dont have any authoirty on what Doom is or isn't

Can you also predict when Half life 3 is going to come out with that Future telling skills you have there?

 

Well, the developers do not have it either because they are not the original creators, they are just using a famous brand to get money by making a game that it has little to do with the brand is named after, so the new games are just an expensive fan fiction.

 

Just one example, the level design in old Doom was complex and varied. In D16 is a round arena.


25 years of technology advances and the level design went backward. No excuses.

If the problem was the graphics, maybe they should focus more on making fun gameplay than just pretty graphics? They are not everything in a game.

Also i can predict that HL3 is gonna come out in a long time if ever, the guy is making enough money out of steam, why he would need to work?
 

On 2/14/2020 at 7:12 AM, Super Mighty G said:

Your assessment of the game's design is flawed. You don't know what made Doom great and are just operating on blind bias. 

 

Elaborate or dont say that to me and leave it at that, i always said why i dont love the new games and i can elaborate, the enemies do not look like demons but more like aliens, the level design is too simple, the gameplay is very repetitive, mechanics like weapon mods add nothing to the game, i can go on and on, when i played it for the second time i found flaws all the time, specially if right after i put the original games.

 

On 2/14/2020 at 9:09 AM, sluggard said:

You should settle on that post count lol, also don't mean to be rude but reading your comment felt like watching those random youtube game rants (for better or for worse)

 

lol yeah fair enough, i need to keep it more brief, is just a subject i am very passionate about and i talk a lot about stuff that i like

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On 2/13/2020 at 10:48 PM, BetaMarine said:

When creators need to please not one, but many types of fans of a product, there's usually something wrong with the fanbase. (just my opinion, especially with my history with the Star Wars community *shudders*)

 

No, i think is the problem of business men mindset.

When you are making art, what you need to worry about is about satisfying your needs so to speak, to make something that you are happy with.
When you are making a product, you are worried about public reception, and you make changes according to what people might like instead of what is needed.

 

We see this all the time in hollywood movies, very well made products that are absolutely forgettable and souless because they were made by a board of executuves with market analysis of what is popular.

 

I think they just have to do the game they want to and that is it, no need of pandering with so much fan service and trying so hard to make everything feel like "planet badass" or something like that, is cartoonish at this point, just make a good game.

 

 

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3 hours ago, D88M3R said:

 

No, i think is the problem of business men mindset.

 

We see this all the time in hollywood movies, very well made products that are absolutely forgettable and souless because they were made by a board of executuves with market analysis of what is popular.

 

 

 If you really trink that Doom Eternal it's Souless and forgettable, man, you are really trinking with a really close mindset.

Also, you say that it's not Doom, but for a greater number of players, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal are, Doom games. If your eyes it's not a Doom it's okay, but don't go with that type of excuse on a discussion forums because it's sounds more like a whinny text that a real discussion.

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8 hours ago, D88M3R said:

Well, the developers do not have it either because they are not the original creators, they are just using a famous brand to get money by making a game that it has little to do with the brand is named after, so the new games are just an expensive fan fiction.

 

This the single most idiotic thing i heard. Doom is an id Software brand first and formost and guess who is making it...

 

Just because you dont like it does not mean its just fan fiction. Get over your self kid.

 

Sorry id didnt make the game you are "entitled" to be given and i hope they never will just make you rant more.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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Considering how 2016 was less colorfull than Eternal and Eternal seems to address some of 2016's complaints, there's probably cases where id is trying to appease everyone but obviously can't.

 

Sometimes, i look at my criticisms of the new games and think "what if i were to talk to the devs in person about this or my ideas on what i think could make the games a bit better, while also doing a good job at presenting these ideas", because chances are likely to be "i don't know, we tried but it didn't really work".

That's probably something to expect.

 

But i guess id probably likes that some people believe enough in the new formula to imagine the potential for it, whether or not some stuff may ever happen or if it'd even work.

 

Maybe this topic of "gameplay design fanfiction" may be noticeable when DE modding happens.

 

edit: this could also apply to art direction, whether it's new other art directions to experiment with, revisiting older iterations of Doom or the things that could be done in this particular Doom iteration, because there's things i liked from the leaked art that may not be used in a game.

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10 hours ago, D88M3R said:

the enemies do not look like demons but more like aliens, the level design is too simple, the gameplay is very repetitive, mechanics like weapon mods add nothing to the game

Opinion, opinion, opinion, opinion. Why is the gameplay repetitive? Why do mods add nothing? What qualifies as simple level design? Nothing you say is objective at all. And since you are the all knowing god-king of what Doom truly is then tell us. 

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In some way, "it doesn't feel like Doom" doesn't have to come off as a bad thing (sometimes), whether it's trying to guess what the original devs would think of something or considering what the games supposedly represent.

 

Considering how Doom is one of those series that was technically "carried" by its fanbase with the mod/wad scene and all, some people are used to some mods as the closest to expanding Doom, specially compared to other iconic franchise that have a lot more games and official content.

Whether or not some mod content tries to fit the series' setting/theme or at least think they're "what the original devs wish they've made" or even a mix of both.

 

One could argue that some fans just didn't went on the level of complexity that the new id has with the lore and all so it feels "too outside of Doom" but one can also wonder whether or not id themselves are inspired by some mods or wads.

 

Some new concepts that don't feel very "Doom" could be good enough to still fit in some way, like UAC having mechs or weapon alt fires.

There's some potential that if you time travelled to the original id and showed them these concepts, they'd think some of it is cool, even if they would execute it differently.

 

But the lore is one of those things that felt like it was meant for a different series (maybe the Night Sentinel/Argenta part?) but was added in 2016 because of some rocky dev cycle, then became a main point when most people liked it.

I just wonder whether or not someone would consider this route the "ideal" way to expand Doom, because there's probably a lot of ways it could have gone.

 

Considering how Doom seems to have changed its aesthetic/nature/direction at times but still retains some aspects/standards, i think we can agree that there's still some good ideas to come out from these games, but at the same time, be it another mainline game or a spin off, there's a lot of "experimental" potential in Doom that may or may not work well with this particular Doom.

 

I guess the multiverse aspect of the lore (IF it's there) could open for potential so the games can still be wild in terms of art style or lore even.

And i guess any lore inconsistencies or retcons would be fitting.

 

edit: when i say exploring different/alt designs or lore, it could be side content like spin offs or at least expansions/episodes or even alternate/optional skins or something, instead of a major game with a lot of effort/time/money put into it for some safety.

 

Something also to add up in "Doom lore" is how far can it go with its mythology and background of explaining things, because one could argue that Doom being about Hell is why not much lore is needed: it's its own version of Hell with the rocket skeletons and flying tomatos and all, but it still has some blatant/obvious references, much like how Wolfenstein may have robots, demons and mutants but still had swastikas and Hitler.

Edited by whatup876 : adding more

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Not that anyone asked but here's my opinion:

 

Doom Eternal will be a good game, but will likely face some backlash because it's been over-hyped. While I'll probably enjoy it enough, I'm expecting my own experience with it to be bittersweet because to me, it represents the end of an era, so to speak, for the company that invented Doom--id Software.

 

The way I see it, Doom Eternal represents Bethesda's campaign to turn Doom, as I know and love it, into Doom™. The Doom Marine as depicted by Gregor Punchatz's original artwork represented the underdog--you against all odds--with a big, middle finger to the man. It was counter-culture. It was ultra violence. Shareware made open source, and handed to the fans and community for nothing beyond "thanks for supporting us. Now let's see what you can do. Go nuts!" QuakeCon and everything else they did seemed to be done for the fans, modders and community.

 

The Doom Slayer, on the other hand, represents something more like Captain America or He-Man--a franchise symbol--designed and marketed with the specific goal of selling merchandise--replacing the big, middle finger to the man with a big, neon sign with dollar symbols on it.

 

Join the Slayer's Club! Buy our Doom™ ENHANCED and Doom™ II: Hell On Earth ENHANCED (which are just censored versions with an added EULA and always online requirement) and we'll generously reward you with different colored shades of armor for our upcoming Doom Eternal (with all money going to our lawyers so we can continue to issue DMCA notices to people in the Doom community)! That's sure to show them for claiming we're just ripping off their ideas! Here at Bethesda, we love Doom! Why? Because despite what you may have heard, we invented it! Not John Carmack. Our lawyers sure showed him with our $500 million dollar lawsuit! Oh, Tim Willits has a problem with our $8 weapon skins in RAGE 2, you say? Well, Mr. Willits, here's the door. We trust you know how to use it?

 

Hey, Doom fans! Did you know about our SUPER COOL Slayer's Club? That's where the REAL Doom fans are! And to celebrate how much money we're making, tweet us your selfie while wearing our Doom Slayer (patent pending) helmet that we graciously allowed you to buy from us and we'll enter you in for a chance to win 2 FREE TICKETS to our Universal Studios Doom Theme Park or a redemption code for our Bethesda Doom pinball game! (Doom Slayer Helmet may or may not be infested with mold. Bethesda and its subsidiaries assume no liability for any health issues you may develop from wearing it.)

 

In short, Doom Eternal is anti-Doom. A paradox, to be sure. Regardless, it's apparent they're turning Doom into something that isn't true to what Doom is (or was), while also attempting to supplant the old games and control it, like they have when they sued for damages and forced several injunctions on Notch because he started developing a game called Scrolls, which clearly sounds like the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, causing them severe financial losses from infringing on their beloved IP. Notch asked to settle it with a Quake 3 match and they declined. Bethesda doesn't play nor do they care about Quake 3, other than the money it makes them of course.

 

None of the issues, despite new-id Software's reassurances otherwise, seem to have been addressed in Doom Eternal from what I've seen regarding the arena design or general repetitiveness. It seems like it will have cutscenes based on what I've heard. The expanded Doom universe is unnecessary. I've never seen or heard of anyone asking for "heaven" or any of that nonsense. I'm not sure if the Doom Slayer is attempting to be the Doom Marine, or a Predator with that blade on his arm and shoulder cannon, or Super Mario with his double-triple-dash jump and extra lives, or Link with his Master Sword and grappling hook. Seriously. WTF?

 

Doom = Doom Marine + Guns + Kill Demons + Puzzle Maps. That's it.

 

There's also no apparent interest in mod support for it at all. Instead it will feature token, online "features" no one asked for. It's just weird to consider. Especially for a Doom game.

 

This sentiment, coupled with the recent releases of several incredible retro-FPS games like Dusk, Amid Evil, Ion Fury--hell, even Romero's Sigil, has basically raised the bar for Doom Eternal to a level that I simply cannot imagine it reaching, especially when you consider the budget for Doom Eternal's development easily eclipses the budgets of all of those games combined several times over.

 

TL;DR: In many ways, Doom Eternal appears to be the opposite of what makes (or made) Doom awesome, and it's possible whatever reaction you're referencing for the basis of this thread may have come from a similar sentiment. It's best not to dwell on it. If you like it, you like it. No one will probably give a shit about Doom Eternal in a couple of years anyway. Life goes on.

Edited by Vesperas_

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2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

The Doom Slayer, on the other hand, represents something more like Captain America or He-Man--a franchise symbol--designed and marketed with the specific goal of selling merchandise--replacing the big, middle finger to the man with a big, neon sign with dollar symbols on it. 

 

The Doom Slayer still takes on hordes of demons by himself as Doomguy did. He also goes against the UAC in Doom 2016 and seemingly even Heaven too in Doom Eternal. Sounds like a "big, middle finger" type of character still.

 

2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Buy our Doom™ ENHANCED and Doom™ II: Hell On Earth ENHANCED (which are just censored versions with an added EULA and always online requirement)

 

This is misleading. They also have split-screen CO-OP and Deathmatch, include bonus WADs (ex: Sigil, TNT, Plutonia, Double Impact, No Rest for the Living, and Master Levels), and an in-game level select. Which to my knowledge aren't available in other official releases of Doom.

 

2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Because despite what you may have heard, we invented it! Not John Carmack. Our lawyers sure showed him with our $500 million dollar lawsuit! Oh, Tim Willits has a problem with our $8 weapon skins in RAGE 2, you say? Well, Mr. Willits, here's the door. We trust you know how to use it?

 

I don't think they claimed to have invented Doom, the lawsuit is unrelated to Doom. And that's an assumption about why Willits left. Honestly, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with either of these examples.

 

2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

And to celebrate how much money we're making, tweet us your selfie while wearing our Doom Slayer (patent pending) helmet that we graciously allowed you to buy from us and we'll enter you in for a chance to win 2 FREE TICKETS to our Universal Studios Doom Theme Park or a redemption code for our Bethesda Doom pinball game! (Doom Slayer Helmet may or may not be infested with mold. Bethesda and its subsidiaries assume no liability for any health issues you may develop

from wearing it.)

 

Doom merchandise has existed before Bethesda was involved, if your issue here is the helmet. At least it's relevant to the games, whereas before we had nonsensical novels and mobile RPGs.

 

3 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Regardless, it's apparent they're turning Doom into something that isn't true to what Doom is (or was), while also attempting to supplant the old games and control it, like they have when they sued for damages and forced several injunctions on Notch because he started developing a game called Scrolls, which clearly sounds like the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, causing them severe financial losses from infringing on their beloved IP.

 

Can you explain how the Scrolls lawsuit is related to Doom?

 

2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

It seems like it will have cutscenes based on what I've heard. The expanded Doom universe is unnecessary. I've never seen or heard of anyone asking for "heaven" or any of that nonsense.

 

Cutscenes can be skipped. The universe lore can be ignored. Heaven is featured in the Cacoward-winning Eviternity, so at least one person asked for it.

 

2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

 I'm not sure if the Doom Slayer is attempting to be the Doom Marine, or a Predator with that blade on his arm and shoulder cannon, or Super Mario with his double-triple-dash jump and extra lives, or Link with his Master Sword and grappling hook. Seriously. WTF?

 

You do know the Shotgun and Chainsaw in Classic Doom were inspired by Evil Dead, right? Or that the Cacodemon design was based on the Dungeon and Dragon's Astral Dreadnaught head? And these two examples are one of the most iconic aspects of Doom. There's nothing wrong with drawing influence from other sources.

 

3 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Doom = Doom Marine + Guns + Kill Demons + Puzzle Maps. That's it.

 

This is still there.

 

3 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

There's also no apparent interest in mod support for it at all.

 

id Software has expressed interest in opening mod support up in the future.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Join the Slayer's Club! Buy our Doom™ ENHANCED and Doom™ II: Hell On Earth ENHANCED (which are just censored versions with an added EULA and always online requirement)

Always online requirement is long gone in the dust since September last year, so I can play it offline (barring the Switch asking for internet access points at start up, which can be closed and you can continue playing after that). Censored is only half-right. They brought back the SS with altered Wolf3D assets because it's needed for it to be able to be sold in Germany and the crosses is back and at least green, and not pills anymore.

Seriously, people really like to keep beating the dead horse about the always online thing don't they.

Edited by ZeroTheEro

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8 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

TL;DR: In many ways, Doom Eternal appears to be the opposite of what makes (or made) Doom awesome, and it's possible whatever reaction you're referencing for the basis of this thread may have come from a similar sentiment. It's best not to dwell on it. If you like it, you like it. No one will probably give a shit about Doom Eternal in a couple of years anyway. Life goes on.


/remindme 5 years 

Think will be the opossite. Time will tell but it's going on places that will make this game stand up for years.

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5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

The Doom Slayer still takes on hordes of demons by himself as Doomguy did. He also goes against the UAC in Doom 2016 and seemingly even Heaven too in Doom Eternal. Sounds like a "big, middle finger" type of character still.

 

You're missing the point. It has nothing to do with the Doom Marine himself. It's not a middle finger at all. It's pandering.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

 

This is misleading. They also have split-screen CO-OP and Deathmatch, include bonus WADs (ex: Sigil, TNT, Plutonia, Double Impact, No Rest for the Living, and Master Levels), and an in-game level select. Which to my knowledge aren't available in other official releases of Doom. 

 

Double Impact and No Rest for the Living are, and always have been available for free, with No Rest for the Living already having been packaged into the Doom 3: BFG Edition. The rest are (or were) available several times in different packages, as well as for download on both GOG and Steam (but not before Bethesda jacked up the price on the Master Levels to make their "enhanced" version a more attractive purchase option).

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

I don't think they claimed to have invented Doom, the lawsuit is unrelated to Doom. And that's an assumption about why Willits left. Honestly, I'm not sure where you're trying to go with either of these examples.

 

Of course they never claimed to have invented Doom. That would be ridiculous. However, it seems like they really want people to believe they did, judging by how they've slapped their logo over everything. Guaranteed Bethesda's logo will be the 1st thing you see when launching Eternal.

 

The lawsuit was because John Carmack quit. That's basically what it boils down to. Bethesda had no financial interest in VR development, provided little to no support toward its development, which caused John Carmack to do it all on his own and hobble it together into a token feature for the Doom 3: BFG Edition. I specifically recall comments made by John Carmack expressing his annoyance with Bethesda and how they just pushed the Doom 3: BFG Edition out the door because they just wanted some quick cash. A short while later he quit and then proceeded to "steal" his own work developing VR with the advanced prototype headset Palmer Luckey gave him. Bethesda then proceeded to sue him because his code was in a "Bethesda" product and as such, it was owned by Bethesda, despite him doing it all himself, much of which was likely on his own time.

 

Worst of all, prior to the lawsuit, John Carmack, despite having just quit id Software, still offered to do his keynote address at QuakeCon, but Bethesda denied him from doing so.

 

The point of my hyperbole and various references to Bethesda's bullshit was to demonstrate how opposite they are from the open source and community driven id Software responsible for Doom.

 

As far as Tim Willits, based on what I was told from a former Avalanche employee, a contract was made to develop RAGE 2 between Avalanche and a team from id Software. The contract specified a development cycle and 2 planned DLC expansions. Development on it started, and at some point into it, Bethesda proceeded to pull almost all of the id Software team to work on Fallout 76 and develop net code and program, while also pushing for a more marketable "Doom-like" game, as well as an online store to sell absurdly overpriced weapon skins and cosmetic items. This inevitably put their work on RAGE 2 behind schedule, but Bethesda offered no additional support. Behind schedule, overworked and frustrated, many Avalanche employees quit, putting them even further behind, which eventually caused Christofer Sundberg, one of the founders of Avalanche to leave once RAGE 2 shipped and his contractual obligations had been met.

 

My impression was Willits quit not too long following RAGE 2's ship date because he barely recognized the company he had spent so many years working for and wanted nothing to do with Bethesda. His nice, professional response when asked was he preferred working for smaller companies.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Doom merchandise has existed before Bethesda was involved, if your issue here is the helmet. At least it's relevant to the games, whereas before we had nonsensical novels and mobile RPGs. 

 

It's not even comparable. The mobile RPG came about from one of John Carmack's personal pet projects. There was basic merchandise like hats, shirts, bumper stickers, a poster once in a while, and the rarer, more collectible comic and Reaper miniatures, but nothing like it is now with full-lines of collectible pins, ski-boards, Christmas ornaments, refrigerator magnets, plushies, kid's blankets and pillow cases, action figures, travel wear, jewelry, cologne, limited edition fine art for hundreds of dollars or any of that shit.

 

ACT NOW and you can have your very own, #04 DOOM UAC EliteGuy Pin of the Month for the ridiculously low price of only $15.00 (+$8 shipping and handling)!

 

WTF? Who or what the hell is an EliteGuy? It's not enough to sell the collectible figures. They have to sell collectibles for the collectible figures.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Can you explain how the Scrolls lawsuit is related to Doom?

 

What is there to explain? It explains itself.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

Cutscenes can be skipped. The universe lore can be ignored. Heaven is featured in the Cacoward-winning Eviternity, so at least one person asked for it. 

 

As before, you're missing the point. Doom has never needed, nor does it need, cutscenes or lore. John Carmack once said that story isn't important in games. In many cases, it's true. Ion Fury is an excellent game but it has no story. The story is: evil cyborgs caused you to spill your drink and now you're seeking revenge. In Doom's case especially, it's been quite successful without it. The open-ended nature of it is part of what makes Doom what it is, like a choose your own adventure book, people interpret it however it suits them. It inspires the imagination by presenting you with the unknown and not explaining it.

 

That ceases to be the case when you explain or define it. The addition of "heaven" (not really heaven) in Doom Eternal is to build a Doom Universe. The intent is to shape it and sell it. They need it to have a plot full of drama to keep people interested in consecutive, future installments, because their goal is cash. This is the exact opposite of what Doom is, or represents, for many people.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

You do know the Shotgun and Chainsaw in Classic Doom were inspired by Evil Dead, right? Or that the Cacodemon design was based on the Dungeon and Dragon's Astral Dreadnaught head? And these two examples are one of the most iconic aspects of Doom. There's nothing wrong with drawing influence from other sources. 

 

No, I wasn't aware. I'm dumb, you see.

 

I guess that must also mean when John Romero said the Doom Marine didn't have a name because he was meant to be the player he obviously wasn't referring to me personally, because I don't have a bunch of 1-Up's in my pockets, nor can I double jump or instantly warp myself to work by jumping into sewer pipes. I have to drive a stupid car to get to work. It's clear to me now. I'm just not cool enough to be the Doom Slayer™.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

This is still there.

 

Are you sure? I mean, maybe the demons are just misunderstood? It's hard to tell what is going on between VEGA, robot cyborgs that sign their names suspiciously close to what reads like Satan, sacrificial cultists, lightsabers, Templar knight ghosts your B.F.F. Ranger killed in Quake, Wraith fossils being drilled for Argent Energy oil, dinosaur bones, Wilhelm "Deathshead" Strauss being stuck in a wall and that battery operated cyborg moose with the fire whip.

 

I'm sure once we meet up with Tyrael in heaven he'll explain everything--like how the Doom Slayer™ is nephalem and only he has the power to end the demons by trapping them in the Black Soulstone. Maybe he'll even provide us with one of Decard Cain's journals and some other ancient relic that will let the Doom Slayer kill Diablo for good.

 

5 hours ago, AtimZarr1 said:

id Software has expressed interest in opening mod support up in the future.

 

They have not expressed interest, AFAIK. There is no work happening nor planned to do so. SnapMap was dropped and Marty Stratton's official response was basically, "no, but never say never," which is just an apologetic way of saying it's not happening.

 

3 hours ago, ZeroTheEro said:

Always online requirement is long gone in the dust since September last year, so I can play it offline (barring the Switch asking for internet access points at start up, which can be closed and you can continue playing after that). Censored is only half-right. They brought back the SS with altered Wolf3D assets because it's needed for it to be able to be sold in Germany and the crosses is back and at least green, and not pills anymore.

Seriously, people really like to keep beating the dead horse about the always online thing don't they. 

 

In summary: No, Bethesda removed the unnecessary and never should have been there to start with always online requirement that they spent time developing and implementing because they're the good guys and they clearly value their fans, ignoring this one exception which continues to exist, but that doesn't count because there's a way around that, and it's not censored, except this place where it's censored, but that doesn't matter.

 

Seriously, people really like to keep beating the dead horse about the always online thing don't they.

 

Of course it's worth $15! It doesn't have the always online requirement anymore! I mean, sure... You could purchase the normal, mediocre, NON-enhanced version for $5 and play it how the developers originally intended but then you wouldn't have the pleasure of performing superfluous tasks to get around the always online requirement. How lame is that?

 

As before, I wasn't looking for a debate nor seem insincere, even if it is annoying to see how dismissive people are of my point because they choose to be ignorant to it.

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Hey if the games they release are as good as Doom 2016 then im all up for all the Doom merchandising and marketing. Id software can only go up at this point and they deserve it.

 

Again im sorry that id didnt make what YOU think is the "spirit of doom" or "what doom should be" but thats what Doom Builder is for. So get your modding skills up to snuff and make your version of TRU DOOM

9 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

 No one will probably give a shit about Doom Eternal in a couple of years anyway. Life goes on.

See ya in two years. We still talk about Doom 2016 till this day so good luck buddy. Dont let your DoS machine hit you on the way out

Edited by jazzmaster9

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2 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Everything

 

just seems like salt to me

Romero + Carmack good

Bethesda bad

Nu id =/= id

Thisisnotallowedinmydoom.jpg

something along those formulaic lines

 

As much praise i hear of the doom fathers in this forum, is anyone here fan of the oculus or daikatana?

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The funny thing is that a lot of this can be solved if you just put "in my opinion" in front of your message, it's okay to not like it but I sense people don't take that lightly around here :p

7 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

I guess that must also mean when John Romero said the Doom Marine didn't have a name because he was meant to be the player he obviously wasn't referring to me personally, because I don't have a bunch of 1-Up's in my pockets, nor can I double jump or instantly warp myself to work by jumping into sewer pipes. I have to drive a stupid car to get to work. It's clear to me now. I'm just not cool enough to be the Doom Slayer™.

To be honest this just reads like over thinking and nitpicking, can you also stuff over 5 large guns in your pockets while running at 50mph without running out of breath? lol

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2 hours ago, sluggard said:

To be honest this just reads like over thinking and nitpicking, can you also stuff over 5 large guns in your pockets while running at 50mph without running out of breath? lol

I can on my Space Marine Hover Chair.

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10 hours ago, Vesperas_ said:

Everything 

The master of doom has spoken, doom eternal is now cancelled and everything that was introduced on doom 2016 will be forgotten in favour of a generic doom 2 megawad.

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