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Koko Ricky

Is Doom done being serious?

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1 hour ago, jazzmaster9 said:

But what i mean is only a certain amount of in game footage is  available to the general public so its a lot of jumping to conclusions at this point 

I'd drop it at this point. It's clear some people are adamant about hating the game regardless if they don't have the full picture or not. 

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2 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

I'd drop it at this point. It's clear some people are adamant about hating the game regardless if they don't have the full picture or not. 

Agreed. They can show a short clip of a Pain Elemental and people will complain how Doom Eternal only has flying enemies or something.

 

EDIT: Though i will admit i may have gone a bit overboard here myself so I'll stop as well. apologies 

Edited by jazzmaster9

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I don't think even Doom 3 was as dead serious as people make it out to be. Betruger is a giant ham whose dialogue feels like a giant parody.

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18 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

Well, DooM 3 IS a generic horror game with DooM flavour. It's also absolute slog of a game with ahrdly anything to get out of it. Only thing that kinda catched up from DooM 3 is the Hellknight design.

And even thou DooMslayer seems similarly stoic and angry, the game's attitude toward the story is not even remotely similar. Where 2016 was subtle, Eternal seems to be overt. In 2016 you were in base overriden by demons and you could see that by just looking around. In Eternal you are being told that you are going to Sentinel prime homeworld which is bla bla bla... just to get the faintest idea what's happening. You know all the "show, don't tell". It's like the differnce between a story that a 15 year old edgelord would like to write but lacks the finesse to do so and a story that he actually writes. And that is why people have problem to take DooM Eternal seriously. It's mix of all the things that were so subtly changed untill the whole game feels completely different and somewhat wrong.

EDIT: A difference between camp and schlock.

 

Well yeah, it's expanding upon the lore and background characters. All the cutscenes can be skipped (hell, i wish i could skip hayden talking in res ops and his office after the first playthrough in 16), codexes are optional and that only leaves vega, who in doom 2016 would also speak in the background. So what is bothering people are the bright colors (really needed as visual cues), things that were already in 16 but somehow are more annoying in eternal (?) (chainsaw, gks, easter eggs, secret collectibles etc) and the fact that the game took all the story hints of doom 2016 and built upon them to a galactic style, so while there was mention of angels and demonlords and other worlds and superhuman sentinels in 16, the fact that they weren't present in the actual game made it feel closer to doom while this one is close to doom plus heretic plus whatever. I mean ok, its a very valid complaint, but I always thought a sequel would have a natural progression like that. Hugo has said they were very nervous about 16s release just because of those codexes, and when lots of people showed interest they decided to expand upon it in the sequel.

Edited by Urdak5891

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On 1/31/2020 at 12:46 AM, Soundblock said:

I don't see a problem with a story telling device being in equal parts horrific/serious and/or stylish/cartoony as long as it's carried out with conviction. It's one of the reasons one of Doom's main influences - Evil Dead II - works so well.

 

You and others seeing Evil Dead as a main influence: "Hail to the king baby" was Duke Nukem 3D, not Doom. And if you compare Doom to Duke 3D it's also a good example of more serious vs not serious at all.

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29 minutes ago, Urdak5891 said:

(hell, i wish i could skip hayden talking in res ops and his office after the first playthrough in 16)

Word. People always be like "LOL isn't it amazing how Doom 2016 just gets skips the cutscenes for you?" and then you gotta wait for Olivia's lines to leave the first room, then you gotta look at a whole bunch of computer diagnostics before Hayden chips in and Slayer shoves it away, then in the beginning of level 2 you gotta listen to Olivia for a bit again, then later you gotta sit for hours in the communication room where you get the first argent sphere thingy, then you gotta keep waiting for Vega to finish his tutorials, then you gotta wait for Hayden to finish his exposition in his office... Granted, in the grand scheme of things it ain't too much, but it's still surprisingly disregarding to its own ideology of "fuck the cutscenes that keep you waiting for ACTION".

 

6 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

You and others seeing Evil Dead as a main influence: "Hail to the king baby" was Duke Nukem 3D, not Doom. And if you compare Doom to Duke 3D it's also a good example of more serious vs not serious at all.

Yeah, wasn't one of the main influences "Aliens"? But with demons.

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1 minute ago, Antroid said:

Word. People always be like "LOL isn't it amazing how Doom 2016 just gets skips the cutscenes for you?" and then you gotta wait for Olivia's lines to leave the first room, then you gotta look at a whole bunch of computer diagnostics before Hayden chips in and Slayer shoves it away, then in the beginning of level 2 you gotta listen to Olivia for a bit again, then later you gotta sit for hours in the communication room where you get the first argent sphere thingy, then you gotta keep waiting for Vega to finish his tutorials, then you gotta wait for Hayden to finish his exposition in his office... Granted, in the grand scheme of things it ain't too much, but it's still surprisingly disregarding to its own ideology of "fuck the cutscenes that keep you waiting for ACTION".

 

Exactly yeah, and the thing those weren't cutscenes but part of the gameworld so i guess techwise they couldn't have been skippable (not sure) and then later on they must've taken the feedback and moved to cutscenes only and made sure there is a 'press r to skip' note. It's a real big positive change to me because after the first playthrough there is no need for them at all.

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Just now, Urdak5891 said:

 

Exactly yeah, and the thing those weren't cutscenes but part of the gameworld so i guess techwise they couldn't have been skippable (not sure) and then later on they must've taken the feedback and moved to cutscenes only and made sure there is a 'press r to skip' note. It's a real big positive change to me because after the first playthrough there is no need for them at all.

Exactly. I actually kind of hate the Half-life 2 style "you can walk around a room while characters also walk and talk at you" style "cutscenes" in games because a) they're less tightly-directed and b) they tend to be unskippable. I'd much rather have Wolfenstein TNO style cutscenes that are extremely well-directed, skippable and sometimes mask loading.

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2 minutes ago, Antroid said:

Exactly. I actually kind of hate the Half-life 2 style "you can walk around a room while characters also walk and talk at you" style "cutscenes" in games because a) they're less tightly-directed and b) they tend to be unskippable. I'd much rather have Wolfenstein TNO style cutscenes that are extremely well-directed, skippable and sometimes mask loading.

 

Ditto, agreed. They really made sure of it this time, from the little we have seen

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24 minutes ago, Tetzlaff said:

You and others seeing Evil Dead as a main influence: "Hail to the king baby" was Duke Nukem 3D, not Doom. And if you compare Doom to Duke 3D it's also a good example of more serious vs not serious at all.

Influence can be derived in more than one way. Doom doesn't do one-liners, but it does slaughtering zombies with shotgun and chainsaw.

 

Comparing Doom with Duke 3D is interesting: both Doom and Duke have "abstract" video gamey protagonists, who can do feats of superhuman strength such as running absurdly fast and carrying a large amount of weaponry and ammunition. However, Doom is meant to be a normal person at heart (one that any player can identify with), even if of above-average fitness ("You're a marine, one of Earth's toughest, hardened in combat and trained for action." --Doom's text file and manual). The character of Duke Nukem, however, is more defined. He's already a veteran super-hero in Duke 3D, having defeated a mad scientist's robot army in Duke 1 and an alien invasion in Duke 2. He's already established as a larger-than-life badass, while Doom's marine is a nameless debutante in the badass action scene.

 

The settings in Doom are very abstract, and don't seek to be plausible, just to be distinctive. Yep, Phobos sure looks like a moonbase, even if nothing makes sense about how the levels are designed, because they're designed for gameplay, not for immersion. Or rather, they don't make sense as moonbases, but they make sense as moonbase-themed battlegrounds. Inversely, the settings in Duke 3D are designed to seem a lot more realistic. Of course, they're still videogame levels, they still have navigation that only makes sense in video-game logic (like a bridge that can only be accessed by blowing up a wall), but you still have things like a cinema that looks like a cinema, complete with theater, projection room, lobby, etc. Whereas Doom has a hangar that just doesn't look like a hangar at all. (It doesn't help that the hangar was originally supposed to be a completely different level, that ended up being E2M7 in the final game, but the name stuck even after being completely redesigned.)

 

So the basic comparison is that Doom features a "normal" character trapped in a "surreal" world, while Duke 3D features a "surreal" character inside a "normal" (even if alien-invaded again) world. And to bring things full circle, in the Bethesda-era Doom titles, the Doom Marine is now, like Duke was in Duke 3D, a veteran of several previous demon invasion, he's no longer a rookie, he's carved his way to glory and proven his mettle. The superhuman feats of strength that he had in Classic Doom because it was "what felt right" in gameplay rather than what would have been realistic in a game where the environment weren't realistic are now truly claimed as superhuman feats of strength. The Doom Slayer is a surreal character in a surreal world. Of course you couldn't preserve Classic Doom's gameplay in a modern game without having to explain the speed and inventory somehow. It's why we got excuses like Half-Life's HEV, or Halo's Spartan armor. Power armor makes you go faster, be tougher, carry more. And so Doom has the Praetor Suit now, but also hyped the Doomguy as a mythical, supernatural badass too. And this is the big change in tone. In Classic Doom, you're "one of Earth's toughest", but in New Doom, you're far above and beyond that. (It might be worth noting that Classic Doom allows multiplayer coop in the campaign, while from what we've been told so far, multiplayer in Doom Eternal is limited to "invasion" where the other players are demons who try to hinder you, and in Doom 2016, multiplayer takes place in a VR simulation, not in the game universe's "real world".)

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You know, sometimes when I read what people say on that subject I feel like I have shifted to another dimension at some point. :) All this talk about the alleged cartooniness of the original DOOM and how it has always been funny... I really have not heard those kinds of opinions back in the day. It's easy to remember that because humour and jokes were a big part of what separated Duke3D from DOOM which basically ruled the FPS landscape at the time.


DOOM alongside games like Heretic or Quake represented the "serious" side as opposed to Duke3D, Shadow Warrior or Blood which were littered with jokes and references. Duke3D was definitely a notable tone shift from DOOM and everybody could see that - the humour was always one of the first things that people talked about, that, unlike DOOM, Duke3D is actually funny sometimes. Now granted that this was the time before the internet so I didn't have access to global impressions but as far regular players and gaming magazines are considered this is pretty much how those games were perceived.


Does anyone remember the Duke3D vs Quake disputes? One of the arguments was that some people prefered Quake because, like DOOM, it was more serious and didn't try to be funny all the time. I remember someone in a gaming magazine making a point that the browns and greens of Quake and DOOM are the colors of poison, rot and waste which was fitting for the darker theme of those games.


I think one of the big problems here is the lack of proper definitions. What is "serious"? What is "cartoony"? People argue about that but I'd bet money that most of us don't really have the same ideas in mind when we hear those terms.


I don't think anyone who says that DOOM Eternal is not serious enough wants a super slow, super realistic horror game or a gritty military shooter. It's more about the presentation. id openly embraces the "it's a video game" aspect and not everyone likes that. I don't think you have to go straight to crazy town just because you're not trying to be realistic. And the same thing goes for enemies. I don't think the game would suffer at all if the Demon or Pain Elemental had more grotesque models, akin to Hellknight.


It seems to me that some folks use the terms "cartoony" or "funny" as a substitute for "arcade'y" and that might cause confusion as well. A blatantly video gamey element isn't necessary cartoony. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm guity of that as well because in the very first gameplay impressions I used the term cartoony to describe it. But I no longer think that word is appropriate in this context.


For me personally one of the few problems that I have is that id doesn't know when to stop. There are parts of this game that make me think "ok, now this is just silly" and not in a good way. So here we have the distinction between "comic book" and "cartoon". Most of DOOM4 and what we've seen of Eternal seems to be kind of a comic book craziness which is fine. It's not realistic but it's not completely insane either. But there are moments that cross the line and it becomes a literal Tex Avery cartoon, like that cannonball scene or someone literally refering to the player as the "Doomguy", and to me it breaks the immersion. I mean at this point DOOM Eternal rivals Shadow Warrior 2 which is an achievement because SW2 is completely whacky and batshit crazy. And I personally wouldn't say that DOOM and Shadow Warrior should occupy the same thematic space.


Some people make a point that those who want DOOM to be more "serious" simply remember it wrong because they played it as kids. It might be true to some degree but then again it's undeniable that the original games had a lot of very tense and atmospheric levels such as Phobos Lab, Computer Station, Deimos Lab, Unholy Cathedral, Monster Condo, The Courtyard. And the disappointment with the new direction comes from the fact that this horror aspect is severely neglected from what we've seen.


My personal opinion is that id went too far in some cases. However I am almost completely unbothered by the arcadiness of the gameplay. I do think that floating weapons, giant coins and literal 1-ups are a bit too much - that's a good example of id not knowing when to stop. However the environmental challenges or the purely gameplay oriented systems just seem appropriate to me. Watching those things come together in the gameplay videos just makes me more pumped to play the damn thing.


Lastly I want to go back to the "arcade'y = not serious" argument. It appears to me that some people think that just because something is not realistic then it cannot be serious. For instance: "in DOOM you kill hundreds of monsters, that's completely ridiculous". Well, yeah. But by that logic every shooter ever is silly and cartoony. Might as well say that Gordon Freeman should collect giant floating coins and perform funny finishing moves - after all he kills hundreds of enemies and survives bullets and explosions!


I don't think it works like that. Again, id wants to deliver the message that this game is fun and gamey - but I don't think it's necessary to go to extreme lenghts to achieve that.


However I will also say that I have warmed up to the craziness a bit, especially that related to gameplay systems. That worked out really well in DOOM4 so I have almost no problems with it in Eternal, from what we've seen. To me really a few tweaks here and there - redesign some of the more silly-looking monsters, change the 1ups and stuff at least visually, get rid of some of the Tex Avery scenes, add a few darker, more atmosphere oriented levels - and I'd have no complaints at all.

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To me Doom always had the aesthetics of an 80s Metal album cover:

 

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Which is not so weird, if you think about where the rest of the game and even the music was inspired from. Doom was a (or all of the?)  friggin' 80s Heavy/Quasi-Death Metal album(s?) turned into a videogame. So of course there was this weird mix of realistic/cartoonish "satanic" imagery.

 

And yeah boys and girls, that's as hardcore as it got (for a mainstream medium at least) back then, so it was pretty rad :-p

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On 2/2/2020 at 11:43 AM, Touchdown said:

You know, sometimes when I read what people say on that subject I feel like I have shifted to another dimension at some point. :) All this talk about the alleged cartooniness of the original DOOM and how it has always been funny... I really have not heard those kinds of opinions back in the day. It's easy to remember that because humour and jokes were a big part of what separated Duke3D from DOOM which basically ruled the FPS landscape at the time.

 

 

And yet the first time I heard something about the alleged "cartoonishness" of Doom was in a gaming magazine back in 1995, a quote by one of the developers (Carmack himself?) that "Compared to Quake, Doom will look just like a bad cartoon".

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2 hours ago, Maes said:

 

And yet the first time I heard something about the alleged "cartoonishness" of Doom was in a gaming magazine back in 1995, a quote by one of the developers (Carmack himself?) that "Compared to Quake, Doom will look just like a bad cartoon".

 

That sounds more like he's trying to hype up Quake by saying it's EVEN MORE "dark and gritty" than Doom. It's just a comparative thing seeming to mostly stem from the difference in technology, MAYBE from the duller colors. It definitely doesn't feel like he's implying Doom was intended to be cartoony, just that it looks that way compared to newer games, which nobody could argue.

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Out of context Romero quote:

Quote

Quake makes DOOM look like a sad little cartoon.

 

I'm out of touch with D:E, since I'm not planning on buying it this year (need upgrade, need money), but the stuff I've just seen – my god, it's almost Duke Nukem level of ridiculousness. Doom: Memeternal.

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2 hours ago, incel said:

Out of context Romero quote:

 

I'm out of touch with D:E, since I'm not planning on buying it this year (need upgrade, need money), but the stuff I've just seen – my god, it's almost Duke Nukem level of ridiculousness. Doom: Memeternal.

 

I really don't know where that stems from, I mean slayer doesn't even talk and is a walking ball of hate and .... seriousness. Yes some things like fortress of doom and ripatorium maybe, but the game is still very serious, story and character(s) wise. There is no excessive levels of cheese and fuckery

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On 2/2/2020 at 1:43 AM, Touchdown said:

like that cannonball scene

 

I'm gonna say that this is the one thing that has really bothered me from all the footage I've seen so far. And it's really the one thing that keeps nagging at me. Not because of the silliness or cartoon tone of the scene, but because it seems to be an example of the game violating the very rules it's set up for itself. The game has already established that the Slayer can be hurt by things like explosions, teeth, and claws---so why would it then go on to say he can't be hurt by being shot out of a space cannon into a building? It just doesn't line up.

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I don't know what you guys see cartoonish . I'm tired of seeing all those threads repeating themselves. It was the same discussion with Doom 2016 designs.

 

Only design that goes to cartoonish are the the pick-ups, but even that, Quake 3 pick-ups were simliar, and no one said it was cartoonish.

 

It would have been cartoonish if it had a simliar style to Serious Sam 2, or to be cel shaded. 

 

I see it as being over the top shooter reminiscent of old school ones. Varying themes and colours, and I'm glad they changed the Warcraft-Style monsters from 2016, not that they were bad by any means.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

I'm gonna say that this is the one thing that has really bothered me from all the footage I've seen so far. And it's really the one thing that keeps nagging at me. Not because of the silliness or cartoon tone of the scene, but because it seems to be an example of the game violating the very rules it's set up for itself. The game has already established that the Slayer can be hurt by things like explosions, teeth, and claws---so why would it then go on to say he can't be hurt by being shot out of a space cannon into a building? It just doesn't line up.

Resident Evil rules. If you don't get bitten in a cutscene it's not cannon

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On 2/2/2020 at 5:09 AM, Antroid said:

Word. People always be like "LOL isn't it amazing how Doom 2016 just gets skips the cutscenes for you?" and then you gotta wait for Olivia's lines to leave the first room, then you gotta look at a whole bunch of computer diagnostics before Hayden chips in and Slayer shoves it away, then in the beginning of level 2 you gotta listen to Olivia for a bit again, then later you gotta sit for hours in the communication room where you get the first argent sphere thingy, then you gotta keep waiting for Vega to finish his tutorials, then you gotta wait for Hayden to finish his exposition in his office... Granted, in the grand scheme of things it ain't too much, but it's still surprisingly disregarding to its own ideology of "fuck the cutscenes that keep you waiting for ACTION".

 

Yeah, wasn't one of the main influences "Aliens"? But with demons.

 

I actually said something very similar a while ago, D16 has a huge contradiction in that aspect and it becomes slightly irritating while playing.
They cannot be old and new school at the same time, they have to choose one.

Lets hope is not the same for Eternal, but i fear is gonna be even worse.

 

I wish the developers would just play the old games so they know what makes them good, then translate that to modern age of gaming, that is all they have to do.

On a side note, i am currently playing Doom 3 for the first time ever and i am enjoying it more than i ever enjoyed both times i completed the campaign in D16.
While it also has flaws, it feels more like Doom.

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9 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

On a side note, i am currently playing Doom 3 for the first time ever and i am enjoying it more than i ever enjoyed both times i completed the campaign in D16.

While it also has flaws, it feels more like Doom.

Preach!

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8 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

I wish the developers would just play the old games so they know what makes them good, then translate that to modern age of gaming, that is all they have to do.


 

What makes you think they didn't play the old games? Have you seen how enthusiastic the team is about Doom?

 

Just because they dont share what YOU think Doom is does mean they never played it.

 

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Claiming the developers of Doom Eternal have never played the original games is patently ridiculous. They may not be making the game some of you personally want, but it's pretty clear they all worship the originals. 

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I think that some of the people working at id Software mentioned that they used to play Doom all the time back in the day in the Noclip "Making of Doom 2016" documentary that's on Youtube. I haven't watched it in a while but i'm pretty sure they mentioned it. I'd post it here but it's in like 3 parts and i don't remember where they mentioned it. I'm guessing at the beginning though.

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3 hours ago, D88M3R said:

I wish the developers would just play the old games so they know what makes them good, then translate that to modern age of gaming, that is all they have to do.

What makes you so sure they don't? That is a highly presumptuous statement.

(I am assuming this is referring to id.)

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12 hours ago, Caffeine Freak said:

 

I'm gonna say that this is the one thing that has really bothered me from all the footage I've seen so far. And it's really the one thing that keeps nagging at me. Not because of the silliness or cartoon tone of the scene, but because it seems to be an example of the game violating the very rules it's set up for itself. The game has already established that the Slayer can be hurt by things like explosions, teeth, and claws---so why would it then go on to say he can't be hurt by being shot out of a space cannon into a building? It just doesn't line up.

It's a railgun, so the acceleration is computer-controlled, and Vega took control of it (who is aiming the gun once the player is in the chamber?) to basically turns it in an EMALS. Since you're not accelerated as fast an actual projectile would be, and your exit velocity is also lower by several orders of magnitude, it's survivable.

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And once more, people are complaining because Doom: <whatever> isn't just like a super-enhanced, officially-sanctioned ZDoom clone that somehow will take their old IWADs and PWADs and magically turn them into a Classic Doom experience but with a Doom 3/Doom 2016 twist. Bah.

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2 hours ago, Gez said:

It's a railgun, so the acceleration is computer-controlled, and Vega took control of it (who is aiming the gun once the player is in the chamber?) to basically turns it in an EMALS. Since you're not accelerated as fast an actual projectile would be, and your exit velocity is also lower by several orders of magnitude, it's survivable.


I had a whole explanation typed out last night which was exactly along these lines, but I reconsidered posting it. I think one can quibble about the impact with the wall still potentially turning the Slayer into strawberry jam, but that's a good enough throw-away explanation for me.

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