Is this a dick move?

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Had this on my mind for a while, and just felt like getting a general consensus.

 

As a player, if you were forced to fight multiple Cyberdemons (let's say, 2 or 3) in a relatively small space (let's say, less than 768 x 768, with other obstacles), with a blur sphere on, would you consider this an interesting challenge or just a dick move?

[Dubbag]

If the player is given ample ammunition resources, maybe a megasphere and enough space to avoid blast damage, then i think in an area of 768 by 768 would be a fun challenge I think, but at the max only 2 not 3.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Dubbagdarrel

[baja blast rd.]

1 minute ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

an interesting challenge or just a dick move?

 

whynotboth.jpg

It depends on the exact setup. There is nothing wrong with the archetype, however, which has been done to good effect numerous times. Just don't be afraid to provide multiple megaspheres if the crossfire is truly oppressive and can be undodgeable if RNG insists. 

[VanaheimRanger]

How about 2 Cybers and 4 viles?

[⇛Marnetmar⇛]

have you tested it to determine if it's fun or not 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

I sort of felt the same way, regarding Megaspheres as a means to offset the pain. But yes, finding that balance could be tough.

 

13 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

which has been done to good effect numerous times

 

I've never actually played a WAD that forced this kind of thing, are they any you can remember off the top of your head? I'd love to see how others approached it.

 

10 minutes ago, guitardz said:

How about 2 Cybers and 4 viles?

 

Lol that does look fun... but is there a blur sphere??

 

@Marn I did run a few experiments, and personally, I kind of relished the suffering. It felt like my fate was genuinely in the hands of RNG, which was an interesting feeling for an arena. It did feel like it was straddling that line, however, of possibly being too ridiculous.

 

[Asking4Id]

I wouldn't like it.

[VanaheimRanger]

Just now, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Lol that does look fun... but is there a blur sphere??

There is not, lol.

 

Also, these cybers have less health and the viles are Diabolists so they don't have their line of sight attack.  All from Minicharge.  It's a pretty easy encounter.

[baja blast rd.]

5 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

I've never actually played a WAD that forced this kind of thing, are they any you can remember off the top of your head? I'd love to see how others approached it.

 

 

Here are a few.

 

Scythe m27

Flotsam m13

Dimensions m32

 

I'm linking the demos because they are a convenient way of showing the setup. The way it actually plays when not in a run (or simply in another run) might be different than depicted.  

[RonnieJamesDiner]

Ohhh wow, I completely forgot about that Scythe map. I wonder if that's where I got the idea, and it was just floating around in my subconscious. I was in love with that setup the first time I played through Scythe. 

 

The Flotsam one looks incredibly fun. Potentially brutal, but fun. I really like that setup. The Dimensions one just looks... traumatizing. 

[Solmyr]

3 its probably too much, unless one of them is a turret, or there is a way to temporarily isolate it from the other 2. If you are feeling particularly dickish, how about providing moving pilars as most of the cover.

[Rainne]

4 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

It felt like my fate was genuinely in the hands of RNG, which was an interesting feeling for an arena.

The flip side of that is: your fate isn't in the hands of your skill. The outcome doesn't reflect the player as much; victory isn't a sign of skill (an unskilled but lucky player could prevail) and there's nothing to learn from defeat (less opportunity to improve). The more it's luck-based rather than skill-based, the more that's true. I would think players are less likely to find that appealing.

[Pablo_Doom_Guy]

well i've recently played a map that had 3 cyber's on the last room , 1 key behind 1 , and  2 doors behind the other ones (1 door behind each cyber with a switch to press ) ='(  

 

PS : i don't know if 768 x 768 is big or small , sorry i don't know nothing about map editing =( 

[VanaheimRanger]

4 hours ago, Pablo_Doom_Guy said:

PS : i don't know if 768 x 768 is big or small , sorry i don't know nothing about map editing =( 

The room in the screenshot I posted above is roughly the same size, maybe a tad larger/smaller.  I'm not home to check exact measurements currently.

 

EDIT: Actually, the floor tiles are 64x64, so it appears to be about 14 tiles long and around 16 wide.  So, 896x1024.

 

EDIT2: It's actually 896x896

 

 

It's also a switch puzzle, you press a switch to open a shoot switch panel on one of the 4 columns, each shoot switch opens the next column, the last one opens the exit.  As long as you keep moving you can get through it without being hit.  The viles have a ground/area denial attack instead of their standard line of sight blast, to keep you moving.

Edited February 1, 2020 by guitardz

[Pablo_Doom_Guy]

1 minute ago, guitardz said:

The room in the screenshot I posted above is roughly the same size, maybe a tad larger/smaller.  I'm not home to check exact measurements currently.

 

ahhh ok thanks, then i would say yes , if there's a place to hide from the rockets but with no arch-viles of course 

[RonnieJamesDiner]

8 minutes ago, Rainne said:

The flip side of that is: your fate isn't in the hands of your skill. The outcome doesn't reflect the player as much; victory isn't a sign of skill (an unskilled but lucky player could prevail) and there's nothing to learn from defeat (less opportunity to improve). The more it's luck-based rather than skill-based, the more that's true. I would think players are less likely to find that appealing.

 

I think that's a big part of what I found so interesting about it, though. It wasn't a fight that I could master (at least, not completely). Regardless of how many times I practiced and ran the arena, pure RNG could still just smack me down to the floor laughing at my miserable corpse.

[galileo31dos01]

In short words, it could be. The simple image of a setup around those limited factors suggests the author wanted to throw a dice and let it be what it'll be, so what other components you add to spice it up rather than being of poor taste do matter to change that vague impression into maybe fun times.

 

For instance health in good measure has to exist, like multiple megaspheres distributed perhaps not so conveniently to the player if that goes with the tone of the map, unless it's meant to be a remixed death trap of a 90's map. Also other monster species can perfectly participate, for example in "Breathless" by Nirvana there's a secret area that has hitscan hell, cybs and viles on upper terrain, the layout is sort of an arena, and you are given a blur sphere and some megaspheres. That's a setup I'd consider fun because of the whole package, it's a clever move to create initial false safety and emphasize attention on the cybs over the zombies, although the viles are not to be forgotten. 

 

The one I came across not too long ago was e3m8 of "The Beginning of the End part 2", in which the setup was about protecting your clones whether it was you who'd kill them by accident or monsters. At some specific points a cyb of three would spawn to ruin your and their fragile lives, all while partially invisible since you probably picked any to trick SMMs into not eviscerating you that quick. The voodoo dolls are exposed like a mini museum, so the winner strat will seem non-existent at first, and it's because you're dumped in a glass canon state there that reliable strats don't exist. It's, however, an unique concept that I couldn't hate, as NT dropped so many noteworthy ideas in doom 1 wads that are good inspiration to me.

 

Like rdwpa said, on paper it's a valid idea as many out there, just depends if the execution shows more creativity, dynamism, plot twists, and less about plain fighting the randomizer.

[Maximum Matt]

3 hours ago, guitardz said:

How about 2 Cybers and 4 viles?

Man fuck that

[SlayerOGames666]

no
oh christ no
as long as i have a bfg or higher

[Spectre01]

I am personally not a fan of Blur Spheres used as a debuff or placed in a trollish manner with no hitscanners in sight. In cases like the end of Scythe map27, I'd rather wait out the effect and then deal with the Cybers. Especially if I'm playing without saves or in the case of December's Ironman.

[ReaperAA]

To be brutally honest, I am not a fan of fights that rely on RNG to survive. In my opinion, a good encounter is one that can be reliably beaten if the player is skilled enough and knows whats coming. I would say either be liberal with megaspheres or just ditch the blur sphere.

[rex2005]

 

The Partial Visibility powerup is what you meant by blur sphere, right? 

[reflex17]

43 minutes ago, rex2005 said:

 

The Partial Visibility powerup is what you meant by blur sphere, right? 

 

A partial invisibility powerup (called blur sphere in the manuals) is an item that appears as a floating red and blue orb with a pulsing eye-like pattern.

 

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Partial_invisibility

 

Also I'd like to leave a friendly reminder that luck doesn't actually exist.

 

 

ON TOPIC: No.

[Khaoscythe]

Depends on the layout. It's only a dick move if you get thrown into a small room with multiple Cybies through a forced Blur Artifact with absolutely zero cover (add more dick move points if there are other bs variables such as AV's/Revs being present). If there's any sort of cover (pillars and the sort) then I wouldn't think so unless the fight is purposely planned out by the mapper so that it's entirely RNG and not skill-based (and in that case, screw you and your troll ass placements map maker).

[High On Berserk]

Dick move/crime against humanity.

[PeterMoro]

Depends on how much space there is IMO. If there is enough evasion space, it might work. Points for giving an original idea a shot.

 

I usually don't like to fight more than one Cyberdemon at one time. Cyberdemon fights with a few small enemies thrown in are what i think are the best kind boss battles. (like in the end of Doom E2M8) 

 

I like this kind of thread BTW.

[Nevander]

I think it's only a dick move if one of two criteria is not met:

• Player has access to BFG, with ammo, and a Megasphere
• Room has cover somewhere the Cybers can't go, as to allow the player to hide/wait for invisibility to wear off

[Job]

I could just slam my manhood in a desk drawer to save myself the time and frustration playing this. Same end result. 

[seed]

I would consider it just a regular day in Doom.

 

I've seen plenty of shit so nothing really surprises me anymore :p .

[nname]

Tough to tell. But as long as the whole map isn't a troll map it should be ok, I guess.