Remember when Doom was SIMPLE?

[Fonze]

19 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

Erm, Classic Doom never even HAD a jump key AT ALL. I think you mean "falling" puzzles, where you hop off higher platforms to lower ones.

The only "timing" puzzles I can think of were crushers.

Classic Doom never had combat puzzles as far as I remember.

 

Lol really...? Yes I mean "falling" puzzles, which are also known as jumping puzzles; they operate on the same principles and a jumping puzzle needn't include the use of an actual jump button. After all, challenging the sequencing and use of tools at ones disposal is a critical part of puzzles. The secret exit of e3 is a jumping puzzle.

Timing puzzles are as gez mentioned, and e2m9 is absolutely a combat puzzle.

[Jayextee]

The crate to access the red key in DOOM II MAP04 is absolutely a timing puzzle, as is the UV blue key in MAP06. Entering the red key hut in MAP02 is absolutely a jumping puzzle. Cyberdemon versus horde of barons in MAP08 is a combat puzzle. I could go on. Although less-complex than those seen in modern DOOM games, they are nonetheless a part of the series' DNA. I don't know what's being discussed here other than "THE ELEMENTS OF THE GAME I LIKE HAVE BEEN EXPANDED PAST THEIR ORIGINAL SCOPE AND THIS MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE".

[BBQgiraffe]

Just now, Jayextee said:

The crate to access the red key in DOOM II MAP04 is absolutely a timing puzzle

man I hated that thing

[HorrorMovieRei]

1 hour ago, incel said:

To my eyes, 95% of people ignore original post and try to be "funny" / antagonize topic-starter.

I tend to not take seriously posts that voice their opinion as hyperbole and matter of fact. Not liking the game is perfectly fine, Doomworld is not an echo chamber as people would like you to believe. But please articulate yourself like an adult if you want to be taken seriously.

 

In a more serious note then, I don't see how making the gameplay more involved ruins the franchise? Quite the contrary, it's turning heads right now. It's building on the foundation of what people enjoyed about the game and one upping it. FPS combat has been distilled down to it's barest basics in what people like to call "modern shooters" where you quite literally just point and click at things, occasionally stepping sideways into cover.

 

Doom not only wants to go back to the old skillful play of old FPS games, but is also adding to it with these new mechanics. Of course, some people aren't gonna like that, and that's fine. But claiming it is going against the ethos of the franchise is simply untrue. By that same logic I could say Super Mario Bros 3 ruined the Mario franchise because it added an overworld map, powerups you can store and use before stages, and the many new powerups.

[Angelloproduct]

4 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

I look at more and more gameplay footage of Doom Eternal and I don't like what I see, the gameplay mechanics look so complicated now, and the game has apparently taken ideas from other games as far back as Doom 2016, and as well as jumping puzzles that I never liked, there are now also timing puzzles, combat puzzles and extra mechanics like extended jumps, wall-climbing and those yellow bars that stick out, AND grappling hooks in shotguns? And most obnoxious of all, an attempt to build a LORE for the game when all the previous games were content to stick with a simple premise and simple instructions! No, I don't care much for these characters and storylines AT ALL.

 

Why did Doom have to get so complicated? There was a time when all you needed was a simple premise paragraph, directional keys and a single fire button, and you'd be set. Not even a frickin' jump key was needed!

 

This seems less like Doom and more like Doom In Name Only (DINO) to me, which is probably appropriate because I prefer older prehistoric games made before 2010 anyway. Call me a dinosaur if you like.

 

Doom Eternal looks pretty as hell, but that's just superficial gloss over a complicated game, far more complicated than it needs to me.

 

I know times have changed but doom has to reinvent in new ways. Hugo Martine stated over at a Noclip YouTube interview that he wanted frustrate the players a bit casual player or not are goint to adapt through a method of combat puzzle. If you wanted to be stuck on simple mechanics doom will not be as innovative no more. We have come into new times so you never know if you can adapt to this "combat puzzle system" easily.

[Linguica]

3 hours ago, Dragonfly said:

Doom '16&/ Eternal are arguably the most 'simple' evolutions when compared to the games and tech they're in competition with at the time of release.

 

I think it's ironic that in the days of Doom 3, gameplay "advances" were more or less taken for granted and all the focus was on technological refinement, whereas with Doom 2016 and Eternal (especially Eternal, it seems), the technological advances are more or less taken for granted and all the focus is on gameplay refinement.

[Guest MIND]

Just play the 1994/1993 Doom then. It's not like it's going anywhere.

[Guest MIND]

Remember when horses were used to get around? Why can't we just use horses instead of these car things??

[Super Mighty G]

It has been said repeatedly leading up to release that Doom had to evolve as a franchise. Giving the classic formula a high fidelity coat of paint or retreading Doom 2016 isn't going to cut it. If you don't like it there are plenty of retro FPS games coming out like Wrath and Prodeus that keep it classic. 

 

Also saying it tarnishes the franchise is a ridiculous statement when there are franchises that have been actually ruined by bad game design like most Konami IPs. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Super Mighty G

[Asking4Id]

5 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

It has been said repeatedly leading up to release that Doom had to evolve as a franchise. Giving the classic formula a high fidelity coat of paint or retreading Doom 2016 isn't going to cut it. If you don't like it there are plenty of retro FPS games coming out like Wrath and Prodeus that keep it classic. 

Why is that the case? Mega Man 9 and 10 were well received and they use the NES engine (or a slightly modified version, idk). There is demand for some games (not all) to reuse old assets.

[Gez]

Well you've got Hedon built with GZDoom, and Ion Fury built with EDuke32.

 

The two together will not get one hundredth of the sales figures of Doom Eternal.

 

[ZALGO]

14 minutes ago, Asking4Id said:

Why is that the case? Mega Man 9 and 10 were well received and they use the NES engine (or a slightly modified version, idk). There is demand for some games (not all) to reuse old assets.

 

Their is a bit of a difference between  the two. Mega Man as a franchise is built upon a similar gameplay style that evolves through how the story is told or how mobile your character is. Doom is far more different than that, as it is built to be a technological marvel in many ways.

 

Doom 1996 at the time was graphically amazing and was part of the reason Carmack got put in the limelight as a technical genius.

 

Doom 3 back in the day had graphics way ahead of its current time (For being made in 2004, it looks amazing).

 

Doom 2016 also evolves with the use of ID Tech 6 which had a major tech boost and gameplay improvements that still feel like the original.

 

 

[Taurus Daggerknight]

It's been stated before, but in relation to what else was around at its time, OG Doom was complex as all heck. It had way more weapons, with far more drastically different behavior, the run/ faux-jump key, timed puzzles, a much larger monster roster, more interactions in the environment (boom barrel chains are a pretty nifty trick for back then)... it's a bit of a list. The stuff it didn't have (free look, jump, etc) were not left out as a matter of design; it was time and possibly complexity, and  all those features came in by iD's next project (Quake). Heck, even Raven added in that stuff with Heretic/ Hexen. 

 

By the time Doom 3 rolled out, it also added a host of other complex systems. Now, Doom 3 has game design issues, but IMO, that's mostly due to it not being sure about being an FPS or a survival game like System Shock. However, the point is that they were layering on experimental systems even back then. 

 

Add to that the encouragement to modify and add even more to it, well....Doom really has never been about "keep it simple as pong", even if the premise is fairly straight forward (RIP 'n TEAR!). 

 

I'm not sure why the grapple hook is being seen as a problem honestly. It's a mobility tool meant to keep you moving in the fight. The game is hardly turning into Tomb Raider or Uncharted by its presence....

 

EDIT: Also, Doom has had lore for AGES. There were at least two phone RPG's (three if you count the Wolfenstien game), Doom 3, technically all the Doom's if you factor in their manuals and backstories. 

[Jayextee]

25 minutes ago, Asking4Id said:

Mega Man 9 and 10 were well received and they use the NES engine (or a slightly modified version, idk).

Slightly off-topic, but no they don't.

[Asking4Id]

1 minute ago, Jayextee said:

Slightly off-topic, but no they don't.

...They use an 8-bit engine which is meant to be the same (functionally) as the one NES used.

[Jayextee]

1 minute ago, Asking4Id said:

They use an 8-bit engine

This is getting worse. Stop. MM9 and 10 were made using then-current tech, merely the assets were built to NES specifications to preserve the aesthetic as closely as possible; all whilst subtly pushing some limits further than the NES could feasibly handle. They were not built 'in the same engine'.

[Asking4Id]

1 minute ago, Jayextee said:

This is getting worse. Stop. MM9 and 10 were made using then-current tech, merely the assets were built to NES specifications to preserve the aesthetic as closely as possible; all whilst subtly pushing some limits further than the NES could feasibly handle. They were not built 'in the same engine'.

What's getting worse? Stop what?

[Gez]

There's no way an actual 8-bit engine would run on current-gen hardware. From Wikipedia:

Quote

Rather than use NES technology, Mega Man 9 runs on a new, proprietary engine that simulates the behavior of 8-bit video games. The game even includes "Legacy Mode", which emulates the low video processing power of the NES by partially rendering sprites, thus causing them to flicker when too many are on screen simultaneously.[20][26] The developers also considered distributing the game on NES cartridges, but without technology to bridge the gap between the cartridges and current gaming hardware, the idea was scrapped.[25] Takeshita clarified that Mega Man 9 is much too large to actually fit on an NES cartridge.[20][26]

Emphasis mine. It's styled to have the 8-bit look-and-feel, but it's definitely not 8-bit.

[Foebane72]

18 minutes ago, ZALGO said:

Doom 1996 at the time was graphically amazing and was part of the reason Carmack got put in the limelight as a technical genius.

 

Doom 1993 was even MORE amazing. :D

 

[Foebane72]

18 minutes ago, Taurus Daggerknight said:

EDIT: Also, Doom has had lore for AGES. There were at least two phone RPG's (three if you count the Wolfenstien game), Doom 3, technically all the Doom's if you factor in their manuals and backstories. 

 

I didn't think of the RPGs.

 

As for Doom 3, well, another favourite of mine at the time was the original Half-Life, and many people said of D3 that it was trying to mimic that. Which it wasn't.

 

[Asking4Id]

1 minute ago, Gez said:

There's no way an actual 8-bit engine would run on current-gen hardware. From Wikipedia:

Emphasis mine. It's styled to have the 8-bit look-and-feel, but it's definitely not 8-bit.

https://megaman.fandom.com/wiki/Mega_Man_9

"According to Capcom's own Keiji Inafune, who was working closely with Inti Creates on the project, the game was developed using an 8-bit graphics and music engine to bring back the nostalgia of the NES-era Mega Man games."

So who's right?

[Gez]

Modern consoles play 8-bit programs about as well as you can decipher Linear A.

 

Here's another quote, same source:

Quote

Yamada insisted that the game contains no actual NES music, but rather the "spirit of NES music", as no such hardware restrictions were present as they had been during the development of the first six games.

 

The game imitates the retro style, but it's all an imitation.

[Jayextee]

17 minutes ago, Asking4Id said:

"According to Capcom's own Keiji Inafune, who was working closely with Inti Creates on the project, the game was developed using an 8-bit graphics and music engine to bring back the nostalgia of the NES-era Mega Man games."

I don't know about the graphics side of this (unless "8-bit bitmap images made in GIMP" or something counts), but you could literally knock together a tune in FamiTracker and stick it in a shiny UnrealEngine game and that would still technically be using an 8-bit music engine given FamiTracker's design in emulating the NES sound hardware. Doesn't mean the entire game engine is 8-bit though.

This is a hell of a derailment though. By a similar chalk, the recent console ports of classic DOOM/DOOM II are not using 'the same engine' as the classics either. It's Unity running the original data.

[Gez]

Unity is used as the I/O shell, it's still the Doom engine inside.

[Asking4Id]

10 minutes ago, Gez said:

Modern consoles play 8-bit programs about as well as you can decipher Linear A.

Bad comparison. I never once had the chance to learn Linear A, there is no past for me to go back to and learn it. If I were to revisit a hobby I abandoned at one point, that would be like modern tech going back and executing a program of the old days. Obviously still not the same, but in parallel at least.

[Gez]

The point is that when they talk about making an "8-bit engine" with "8-bit graphics" and "8-bit music", they are using 8-bit as an aesthetic qualifier, not a technical description. The engine isn't limited to 256 values. Its data take up more than 64 kb. To put it another way, just like a modern console cannot run a 8-bit program (but it can run an emulator that then runs the 8-bit program if you want), there's no way you could port Megaman 9 and 10 to the actual NES, with its whopping 2 kb of RAM.

[TakenStew22]

"Remember when..."

 

"Remember when..."

 

"Remember when..."

 

"Back in the day..."

 

"Back in the day..."

 

"Back in the day..."

 

Remember when back in the day people played video games to have fun? Games evolve people. Get used to it.

[Jalapen0]

I liked how 2016 allowed you to go back to previous levels and get the rest of the items to help you get through a level you are having difficulty with.

 

I really enjoyed Metroid Prime 1-3 and it looks like Doom Eternal is trying to be like Metroid Prime so that has gotten me more excited about Eternal.

[jazzmaster9]

Remember when Doom had visplane limits and 256 color range? This Doom Eternal thing has way to many planes and colors to be considered real Doom, looks like Call of Fortnite to me... 

[Foebane72]

2 hours ago, Jalapen0 said:

I really enjoyed Metroid Prime 1-3 and it looks like Doom Eternal is trying to be like Metroid Prime so that has gotten me more excited about Eternal.

 

You see, this is it, this is exactly the thing that's pissing me off about modern Doom games, they try to be like other games I don't give a toss about:

You say that Doom Eternal is trying to be like Metroid Prime, and I've heard others say that Doom 2016 had elements of Devil May Cry about it.

 

If Doom is no longer it's own UNIQUE and ORIGINAL IP and is just copying others, then I'm not interested.