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VGA

Console Wars: Doom SNES vs 32X

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I agree that it's better to have a playable and enjoyable butchered version of Doom than a lagfest.

 

EDIT: You may wanna skip the skit at the start, it is cringey :D Just skip it and don't comment on it.

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One being less horrible than the other is no improvement tho.

 

Both are bad ports.

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7 minutes ago, seed said:

One being less horrible than the other is no improvement tho.

 

Both are bad ports.

 

Even a bad port of Doom can be a very fun game to play, that is the most important feature and 32X version is more playable version of these two ports.

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13 hours ago, seed said:

One being less horrible than the other is no improvement tho.

 

Both are bad ports.

This really depends how you look at it.

  • The SNES version does not use the Doom Engine, but a custom one called Reality. An interesting write up on this version is over at Gamasutra.
  • Both the 32X and SNES versions atleast provide a playable experience. The 3DO version is one that's geniunely bad, but Rebecca Heineman had her own struggles whilst writing that port. More info here. As such, its a small miracle that the game plays as it does.

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The framerate and control in better in 32X, and I understand how to some people that may be more important, but.. The completely fucked up music, the stripped-down levels / overall lack of levels and lack of BFG are even bigger hits to the game than the delayed input on the SNES.

 

Really, if there was no input delay on SNES and you could circle strafe, I'd call it a damn fine port.

 

I think they're both equally ungood, if I'm trying to be objective. They're both superior to 3DO. 32X Doom, SNES Doom and Saturn Doom are all sort of tied for "second shittiest Doom port".

 

Kinda related, has anyone ever attempted to hack SNES Doom to remove the input delay and fix circle strafing? I imagine it would be pretty tough, but it would be so cool to have a SNES Doom that actually feels pretty good to play.

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I'm a Sega fan myself, but I do admit that the SNES is awesome in its own.

 

Onto the matter of DOOM, I agree with Doomkid as well. I tried the 32X port first, then thought to myself "damn, this game would kick ass even harder if only not for the terrible songs!" (I wasn't familiar with the series back then, starting as a retro gamer who (still) settles with emulation.)

Fast-forward to when I tried my hands on the SNES. Surprised upon learning that DOOM also exists there, I fired it up and man, does it not actually disappoint. While it's inferior to the 32X port in many aspects, I would say it keeps me much longer in front of the screen than the former. Perhaps it's because of how different things go in the SNES port that created my own fear towards it. Something about demons moving in an erratic manner while *always* facing you (the latter also actually true to the 32X port, but the demons move in a more behaved manner like the original), especially in darker rooms, keeps my sense aware.

It's more of a personal preference, but the SNES DOOM triumphs over the 32X one in terms of completeness and atmosphere.

13 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

Kinda related, has anyone ever attempted to hack SNES Doom to remove the input delay and fix circle strafing? I imagine it would be pretty tough, but it would be so cool to have a SNES Doom that actually feels pretty good to play.

IIRC many people have overclocked it, both directly (by soldering the cartridge's insides etc.) and indirectly (by using emulators and/or applying hack(s) there). A user called CacodemonTube even went as far as to analyze the engine and hacked the port extensively for researchs (ie. made custom maps for the purpose of showcasing stuff) as well as made a few custom levels. Though, they haven't been active since mid-2017.

As for input-related stuff, a decent SNES romhacker may be able to do so, although yeah, it takes quite a lot as admited by CacodemonTube.

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@Doomkid

 

The lack of levels, their simplified nature, the butchered music and the lack of BFG  seem like a deal-breaker to you because you are a seasoned Doom player and you compare it to the DOS version. A kid's first experience with Doom back then would be better with the 32X version, I think. Because it just looks and plays better.

 

Also, it would be interesting if someone could insert the BFG in one of the maps as a pickup with a romhack to the 32X version. The weapon is there, you can get it with a cheat, it's just not in any map :D Or generally insert new maps. Much more realistic that fixing the SNES limitations.

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51 minutes ago, VGA said:

 

 you compare it to the DOS version.

 

Problem is, nobody compare it to the DOS version anymore. Everyone compare it to the fancy source ports with high resolution on beefy machines. Back then 32X port wasn't as bad compared to the DOS version, especially, when you compare it running on low end PCs, on 486 cpus with less than 40 or 50 MHz.

 

I found the SNES version always nearly as unplayable shit as the 3DO version. The 32X version was in fact playable und i enjoyed it much. The best version back then was the jaguar version, and besides 32x and jaguar versions, there where a long time no version for consoles worth playing, before the playstation version was released.

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Doomkid cited the lack of levels, the crappy music and the lack of the BFG, so it is fair to say he compared it with the DOS version, not modern source ports.

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Even then, the 32X game are.... what? 4MB in size, while the DOS version had approx. 15MB. The crappy music is a point, that's SEGAs fault, because they always used shitty sound hardware. Yes, the DOS version is superior, who wouldn't wonder if it where the other way around. But it still is a damn good playable port for 1994, right less than a year after the release of the DOS version. That's my opinion, which is based on the fact, that i own every doom console port and the actual hardware from the 90ies, and i played them all, or at least tried to play them all. In fact, i even played the saturn port more seriously than the SNES port, which in my opinion is still a bad joke, if you play on the actual hardware.

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1 hour ago, cybdmn said:

The crappy music is a point, that's SEGAs fault, because they always used shitty sound hardware

Not really. In good hands, the Genesis sound chip could do wonders. The music in 32X Doom is shitty because nobody actually spent any time and effort on it since it's a rushed port. Youtube has no shortage of "How it should have sounded" Genesis-style versions of the DOOM soundtrack, all of which are head and shoulders above the abysmal 32X version. If they had a good composer on it, like Matt Furniss or Howard Drossin, it could easily compete with the SNES version.

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@cybdmn

 

Doom 32X is a 3MB cartridge. But why is this a concern for the player? The player has bought a Sega Genesis and has bought the 32X addon for the extra horsepower. And has bought the probably-not-cheap Doom 32X game. Why get butchered and fewer levels, no intermissions, no map names and a missing "Big Fucking Gun" and crap music on top of it? Genesis can have awesome music, they just rushed the game.

 

I would still prefer the 32X version, don't get me wrong. But the SNES was more hardware-limited and they used a new engine, I think they put more effort into it but the Super-FX chip is no match for the 32X hardware.

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The SNES development team did far more to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear than the 32X team. That heavily weighs in favor of the SNES port, IMO. 

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52 minutes ago, Allard said:

Youtube has no shortage of "How it should have sounded" Genesis-style versions of the DOOM soundtrack, all of which are head and shoulders above the abysmal 32X version. 

I'll see if I can make a video out of this. I already got this playlist and will check the Doom Depot page with the original 32X music rips. All I need to do is ask the permission from the video maker-owner.

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6 minutes ago, taufan99 said:

I'll see if I can make a video out of this. I already got this playlist and will check the Doom Depot page with the original 32X music rips. All I need to do is ask the permission from the video maker-owner.

Hah, nice, good ol' gritty Genesis soundchip

 

 

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Love me some harpsichord midi Doom remixes.

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I dunno gamers but do we really have to compare poop with salt on it to poop with pepper? Dx

 

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7 hours ago, VGA said:

@cybdmn

 

Doom 32X is a 3MB cartridge. But why is this a concern for the player? The player has bought a Sega Genesis and has bought the 32X addon for the extra horsepower. And has bought the probably-not-cheap Doom 32X game. Why get butchered and fewer levels, no intermissions, no map names and a missing "Big Fucking Gun" and crap music on top of it? Genesis can have awesome music, they just rushed the game.

 

I would still prefer the 32X version, don't get me wrong. But the SNES was more hardware-limited and they used a new engine, I think they put more effort into it but the Super-FX chip is no match for the 32X hardware.

 

 

You know, it was as it is now. There is never enough time for development. For the SNES version was released a year after the 32x version, developed on a very well known system, while the 32x was unknown land, and had to be released when it was released. If you don't know, or remember, when the SNES version came out, the 32X was more or less dead.

 

If you saw the video, you should have know there IS the BFG in the 32X, it is just not placed to pickup in any map. It wouldn't even make sense, because the toughest enemy are the two barons in e1m8, and you can perfectly deal with them with the rocket launcher. There isn't any BFG in DOS Doom until e3m3. So, why should it be included?

 

And in the end, what would you prefer, the jaguar version with the 24 stripped down maps, with less texture variation, with missing enemies, or would you take a 3DO version with 100 maps, complete new soundtrack and other fancy stuff? In the end, playability is king, and this is the point where the 32X shines, and the SNES version failed completely. as i said, in my opinion, and i played them all, the SNES version is an impressive tech demo, but playwise its just a can of shit. it is as bad as the 3DO version.

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You're also comparing a port on a 16 bit system against one developed for a 32 bit platform. That kind of invalidates the argument this thread (YouTube video) is based upon. Try comparing two other ports of Doom that are from systems with double the power and it makes even less sense. 

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2 hours ago, cybdmn said:

the toughest enemy are the two barons in e1m8, and you can perfectly deal with them with the rocket launcher. There isn't any BFG in DOS Doom until e3m3. So, why should it be included?

 

And in the end, what would you prefer, the jaguar version with the 24 stripped down maps, with less texture variation, with missing enemies, or would you take a 3DO version with 100 maps, complete new soundtrack and other fancy stuff?

The first point is a big argument against the 32X version, lol. I totally forgot about the lack of bosses, which the SNES retains.

 

Regarding the second point, I don't know why the 3DO version is being brought up so much, but if the question is "would you rather have 32X as-is or SNES Doom with 100 maps", the answer is easily SNES Doom with 100 maps. Doubly so if I were to go back in time to the mid 90's.

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In my opinion Genesis/32x Doom is of the better console dooms out there. I absolutely love it, including the music. Considering bang per buck it is one of the best.

 

I think Digital Foundry's ranking is very correct:

Bad: 3do, Snes/Sfx, Saturn

Mid: Genesis/32x, Jaguar

Good: N64, PS1

 

But Snes/Sfx is my favourite among the bad console dooms.

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Isn't the Saturn hardware closely related to the 32X dual CPU hardware? Shouldn't that port run at least as good as the 32X version?

 

Also, people say the Jaguar was the smoothest until the PSX/N64 ports. And considering that system's overall status, that's pretty impressive, you should put it in the Good category maybe?

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4 minutes ago, VGA said:

Isn't the Saturn hardware closely related to the 32X dual CPU hardware? Shouldn't that port run at least as good as the 32X version?

From what I recall, Saturn's was much more complex and harder to program, which affected many third-party developers.

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22 minutes ago, VGA said:

Isn't the Saturn hardware closely related to the 32X dual CPU hardware? Shouldn't that port run at least as good as the 32X version?

 

Also, people say the Jaguar was the smoothest until the PSX/N64 ports. And considering that system's overall status, that's pretty impressive, you should put it in the Good category maybe?

 

 

The Saturn had, as @taufan99 mentioned, much more complex hardware. The problems with that version where discussed before hundreds of times. John Carmack forced the developer to use a software renderer.

 

 

And for the mid/good question, the Jaguar version was in the good category, until the Playstation version and Doom64 was released. Back then it was the best version, and was a system seller for the Jaguar, just like Alien vs. Predator.

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4 hours ago, Doomkid said:

The first point is a big argument against the 32X version, lol.

 

 

In my opinion it isn't. Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind wouldn't make any sense in the early console ports. The controllers for these consoles doesn't fit FPSs. Fighting the bosses without proper strafing is only enjoyable for masochists.

Thats part of the reason why Playstation and N64 ports are so much better, aside from the technical reasons.

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Carmack should have let Saturn Doom be the way it was. Texture warping is not very bad. Lots of good PS1 games had texture warping and in some sense it is better, it's like textures are alive. Carmack himself later regretted his decision. Sometimes geniuses also make mistakes.

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Sometimes I feel like the only one who legit likes the SNES version and appreciates it for what it is. Lag or no.

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The Saturn version runs more slowly than the 32X version. Its main CPUs are the same two as the 32X, clocked a bit higher, there is no reason for such bad performance other than unoptimised code.

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Yes, unoptimized, more or less. Programming for multiprocessor units wasn't as common as it is today.

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