Build Engine Poll!

[Graf Zahl]

Why do these get such criticism while some of Duke's ridiculously overpowered enemies don't?

Actually from that angle I found DN3D by far the worst of the Build games. Just think about the first baddie in the third original episode, if you don't know where the secret is, he's very likely to get you before you can do anything at all.

 

 

[seed]

I actually agree here, some of Duke's enemies can be just as annoying, if not even more so, if you don't know how to deal with them (I'm looking at you mini Battlelords... ).

 

And disabling autoaim to cheap them out with the Shrink Ray feels kinda cheaty to me... Duke gets a bit too much credit for supposedly being the best balanced Build game out of the Big 3 than it's worth imo. And in all seriousness, I unironically prefer Shadow Ninjas and swarming Cultists over mini Battlelords.

[Gez]

Duke 3D's enforcers are worse than Doom's chaingunner. Chaingunners at least give you a very little forewarning as their chaingun starts glowing before the first hitscan attack, enforcers go to hitscan mode immediately.

[ReaperAA]

46 minutes ago, seed said:

Duke gets a bit too much credit for supposedly being the best balanced Build game out of the Big 3 than it's worth imo.

 

I'll admit I was among those folks who used to say that. But that has mostly because when I played SW and Blood for the first time, I found some enemies to be too unfair. Now that I am more familiar with both of those games and their mechanics, I feel that Blood is actually the most balanced of the 3-big build engine games.

 

46 minutes ago, seed said:

And disabling autoaim to cheap them out with the Shrink Ray feels kinda cheaty to me... Duke gets a bit too much credit for supposedly being the best balanced Build game out of the Big 3 than it's worth imo. And in all seriousness, I unironically prefer Shadow Ninjas and swarming Cultists over mini Battlelords.

 

Although I usually kill mini-battlelords using the shrinker (with autoaim off), I too find it kinda cheaty. Remember that in Duke 3D, the freelook (vertical mouselook) was added when the game was mostly complete and thus some of the aspects were not balanced with it in mind. People were so impressed by the the mouse look feature of a game called "Terminator: Future Shock" that they requested a similar option for Duke3D shareware, which was implemented in v1.1.

 

Mini-battlelords are really hard to shrink without using freelook (even with autoaim off as aiming at the feet is hard). This aiming becomes trivial with freelook.

 

19 minutes ago, Gez said:

Duke 3D's enforcers are worse than Doom's chaingunner. Chaingunners at least give you a very little forewarning as their chaingun starts glowing before the first hitscan attack, enforcers go to hitscan mode immediately.

 

^This. Their biggest issue is that they have no pain-state duration. As soon I hit them with the shotgun, instead of going in pain-state, they immedately start firing.

[seed]

19 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

I'll admit I was among those folks who used to say that. But that has mostly because when I played SW and Blood for the first time, I found some enemies to be too unfair. Now that I am more familiar with both of those games and their mechanics, I feel that Blood is actually the most balanced of the 3-big build engine games.

 

Although I usually kill mini-battlelords using the shrinker (with autoaim off), I too find it kinda cheaty. Remember that in Duke 3D, the freelook (vertical mouselook) was added when the game was mostly complete and thus some of the aspects were not balanced with it in mind. People were so impressed by the the mouse look feature of a game called "Terminator: Future Shock" that they requested a similar option for Duke3D shareware, which was implemented in v1.1.

 

Mini-battlelords are really hard to shrink without using freelook (even with autoaim off). But aiming at his feet becomes trivial with freelook.

 

That's a nice bit of trivia, didn't know freelook was added so late in development in Duke (shows you've been spending some time in Duke territory :p ). This further cements the fact that disabled autoaim to kill certain enemies coupled with freelook is not quite the desired experience, it gets too easy that way. Both Blood and SW feel like they didn't have the 2 features added after the fact (sure, I think neither had them originally, but once they were added they quickly became integral to the experience).

 

19 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

^This. Their biggest issue is that they have no pain-state duration.

 

Duke enemies do seem to lack pain states compared to SW and Blood. Cultists, Gill Beasts, Gargoyles, Ninjas, Coolies, Rippers, etc. visibly have pain states that trigger when shot, but in Duke barely anyone reacts to being shot. Enforcers, mini Battlelords, and the bosses don't really react, and if they do, their pain states don't actually prevent them from shooting. The Chaingun is pretty effective at triggering the pain states of some enemies, or at least stunlocking them, such as Pig Cops and Protector Drones, but that seems to be about it.

[ReaperAA]

21 minutes ago, seed said:

That's a nice bit of trivia, didn't know freelook was added so late in development in Duke (shows you've been spending some time in Duke territory :p ).

 

It was just something that I read some months ago at Duke4.net thread. This is one of the comments.

 

21 minutes ago, seed said:

Duke enemies do seem to lack pain states compared to SW and Blood. Cultists, Gill Beasts, Gargoyles, Ninjas, Coolies, Rippers, etc. visibly have pain states that trigger when shot, but in Duke barely anyone reacts to being shot. Enforcers, mini Battlelords, and the bosses don't really react, and if they do, their pain states don't actually prevent them from shooting. The Chaingun is pretty effective at triggering the pain states of some enemies, or at least stunlocking them, such as Pig Cops, but that seems to be about it.

 

What's surprising is that many enemies in Duke3D actually do have pain states. Octabrains, Sentry drones and Protector drones have pain states. But enemies that definitely should've had the pain states (enforcers and mini-battlelords) don't have em.

[Boaby Kenobi]

For me, Blood has some of the best level design in a 90s shooter, atmosphere too. I love DN3D but I think Blood is the better game.

[MrFlibble]

Duke3D has the strongest nostalgia factor for me, it's THE iconic 90s FPS in my book, but I do have a fair share of warm feelings towards Shadow Warrior, plus there are some pretty interesting design choices in the levels. I love both Zilla Construction and Dark Woods of the Serpent, both are very atmospheric and I like how ZC has this coherent story/overarching objective thing going on with the need to restore power, then manufacture the key you need to progress, and finally drill your way to the exit. I can't remember any Duke level that would so closely weave environment interactivity and level progression as here. I think that in this, SW takes a little step further towards later games like Half-Life (just my opinion!).

As for Blood I haven't played it that much.

[seed]

Can't say I'm surprised to hear that ^, after all SW was always pretty ambitious at its core - just look at the prototypes to see some things, especially considering their time. Even the final game cranked the dial up, with more interactivity in the maps, and of course introducing vehicular combat, albeit limited to a few key portions of the game.

[qdash]

Results of poll is a good reason why Blood must be alive again. >:E

[taufan99]

5 minutes ago, qdash said:

Results of poll is a good reason why Blood must be alive again. >:E

Hasn't it already been resurrected with Fresh Supply though?

[qdash]

25 minutes ago, taufan99 said:

Hasn't it already been resurrected with Fresh Supply though?

 

It's not ressurection. People needs new game on new engine, doesn't it?

[Antroid]

1 hour ago, qdash said:

 

It's not ressurection. People needs new game on new engine, doesn't it?

What about Blood 2 :D

[qdash]

3 minutes ago, Antroid said:

What about Blood 2 :D

 

Are you serious?

[Antroid]

1 minute ago, qdash said:

 

Are you serious?

Dead serious.

No actually I've yet to play it. Though I don't expect to get as disappointed by it as many have since I barely enjoyed Blood 1 in the first place. And it can't be any worse than shadow warrior :>

[VGA]

2 hours ago, taufan99 said:

Hasn't it already been resurrected with Fresh Supply though?

Noone plays on Fresh Supply!

[Remilia Scarlet]

I never really liked most of the Build Engine games that well.  I didn't totally dislike them, but they were never something I craved playing.  Other FPSes of the time were a lot more fun to me.

So, I guess the one I tolerated the most was Duke Nukem 3D.  Blood wasn't too bad, either, but it's not a game I wish to replay.

[Graf Zahl]

2 hours ago, VGA said:

Noone plays on Fresh Supply!

 

Actually, I think you couldn't be more wrong. In reality I expect it to be the most used engine for Blood - because it's the one getting shipped with the game when bought. Most casual users will never even search for an alternative, much less play user mods.

 

 

[NoahRules]

Blood. Hate to say this but I've never played Duke Nukem 3D

[fufu]

I like them all but my vote goes to blood, is the most atmospheric one, has the best weapons, has the best enemies, has some amazing levels, and has caleb.

I think duke has a better soundtrack though.

[markanini]

3 hours ago, VGA said:

Noone plays on Fresh Supply!

Wrong. Before Fresh Supply I never say Blood gameplay on youtube with 10000+ views. It was closer to 1% of that.

[ReaperAA]

Just now, markanini said:

Wrong. Before Fresh Supply I never say Blood gameplay on youtube with 10000+ views. It was closer to 1% of that.

 

Actually, it was BuildGDX (formerly BloodGDX) that made Blood great popular again in 2017.

[markanini]

16 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

 

Actually, it was BuildGDX (formerly BloodGDX) that made Blood great popular again in 2017.

That's when I discovered Blood. But most players today discovered it after FS. Some old times might not like that but that's the facts.

[guydude]

I like Blood. Caleb is not annoying. The weapons look and feel like weapons even if one of them is voodoo doll. Lo Wangs rocket launcher is a toaster. Shrink ray and freeze gun are stupid gimmicks. Lo Wang and Duke Nukem are unfunny caricatures. Nostalgia seems to have been nice to Duke for some reason tho.

[Avoozl]

1 minute ago, guydude said:

Lo Wangs rocket launcher is a toaster. Shrink ray and freeze gun are stupid gimmicks.

I disagree.

[guydude]

I respect your decision to do so. Voodoo doll in Blood is also kind of a stupid gimmick. Blood just comes together as a nicer package so the gimmick doesn't bother me.

[Avoozl]

I only disagreed to those two things I quoted, I'm not disagreeing with Blood having good weapons. I think both Shadow Warrior and Bloods weapons are good, maybe part of DN3D's weapons too.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Avoozl

[seed]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Actually, it was BuildGDX (formerly BloodGDX) that made Blood great popular again in 2017.

 

Indeed. Before GDX stepped in, most hardcore players used DOSBox. Then NBlood came, then FS, and now Raze :>.

 

I agree that the casual players will definitely stick to FS and never bother looking for alternatives, but the rest will likely not stick to it for long, unless they play FS exclusive mods or something.

 

FS is buggy, and it's gameplay isn't faithful to vanilla like both NBlood, Raze, or GDX either.

[[Vitz!]]

Ion Fury and Duke 3D. Together.

I'm yet to finish Blood and Shadow Warrior, though... 

Edit: By the way if you played Duke 3D in a sourceport plays demos (like xduke for example) or dosbox you play already knowing about where  the first secret in E3L1 is. One of the game's demos show right in the beginning where the secret is before you get to play the level, so you have little excuse to no know where it is, especially if you played the game before sourceports incompatible with demos were a thing.

So yeah, while saying Duke has annoying or OP enemies is a valid criticism, using that moment as an example doesn't fly at all to me.

Edited February 21, 2020 by [Vitz!]

[qweqioweuo123]

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