Is Plutonia fair?

[Thorogrimm]

I'm sure this is open to debate for many people who have played through Plutonia or had enough of it's cheap tricks midway through. Is it a fairly playing? I'm asking because I've never played it up until now, and I've played many other WADs during my time with Doom. Plutonia sticks out like a sort thumb to me because of it's cheap tricks and over use of hitscans and Revenants. It's stimulating and interesting at times to play through, mainly accredit to the level design, but I somehow feel that riding down an elevator to a room full of revenants or opening a level with a chaingunner right behind you is very fair play.

 

I don't doubt this subject has been covered many times since the release of Final Doom, but I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts.

[Job]

No, I don't think so... 

 

...is what I want to say. In reality, I'd say firm, but fair. Like Dark Souls, etc. It pummels and challenges, but also rewards the "git gud" crowd. 

[GarrettChan]

Doom is a puzzle game. Puzzle games are fair.

[SuperCupcakeTactics]

I think it's fair. At least when compared to some community made WADs. IMO the sudden chaingunner threats to me were part of what made Plutonia really engaging as they made sure that you're paying attention and they always made the maps more interesting. Some encounters were really tough but I admired them for being those clever "combat puzzles." But yeah, having played Plutonia there definitely are some moments where the maps just want to screw you but I forgive that since it's never the worst thing that could happen (as in Plutonia doesn't want to make sure you're dead, it just wants to up the ante). I had it easy though playing continuously with saves (on UV).

Edited February 21, 2020 by SuperCupcakeTactics

[ketmar]

Plutonia is "let's make Contra, but for Doom".

[idbeholdME]

If you're used only to the vanilla WADS, you will find it difficult.

 

But since I've played a ton of other megawads, I would classify it as medium. It absolutely doesn't have what it takes to be put into the hard category compared to some others.

 

As for if it plays fair or not, that is highly subjective. I personally didn't see anything wrong with it when I played it on UV -fast.

[Andromeda]

Yes, unless you play on Nightmare.

[Maser]

The thing about Plutonia is that it shows the player very early on how bullshit it's gonna be.  So yeah, I like how it right away lets you know what you're in for.  As far as it being "fair" goes.....Is there really such thing as a "fair" Doom game on UV difficulty?  Not meaning to sound like DarkSydePhil here, but Doom games are loaded with beginner's traps that never fail to fuck with a n00b.  

[Wagi]

If you define "fair" as "designed to be beaten on the first try without foreknowledge", the answer is no. MAP03 locks you in a coverless room with an archvile. If you know it's coming you can deal with it but if you're playing for the first time it's straight up bullshit.

 

Hell, I bet most players died from poison trying to find the invisible bridge on MAP02 for the first time.

 

There are mapsets like Hell Revealed that are harder, but also more fair because they don't rely on cheap tricks.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Wagi

[Marcaek]

Plutonia is absolutely for those Doom players who like to be challenged, it's not really designed for first time players. If you can't at least beat Doom 2 on UV you will be in for a rough ride.

 

To quote Dario:

 

Quote

Plutonia was always meant for people who had finished Doom2 on hard and were looking for a new challenge. I always played through the level I had made on hard, and if I could beat it too easily, I made it harder, so it was a challenge for me. I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone who plays Plutonia on hard skill and complains it's too hard. I had a lot of mail from people who had never even tried the easy skill setting because they "only play on hard". However, if someone does play Plutonia on easy and still finds it too hard, play Evilution through, and you should be ready to play Plutonia...

 

That being said Evilution on hard is pretty nasty in places too.

[Spie812]

Aside from a few particularly nasty death traps, Plutonia is hard, but very fair.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Spie812

[JBerg]

I'm not the greatest Doom player but I've been able to beat Plutonia on UV doing pistol starts and not saving. I died a few times and some traps were sort of unfair but I felt the rest of it was fine.

 

Thy Flesh Consumed's difficulty is actually pretty similar on some maps.

[Clippy]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Yes, unless you play on Nightmare.

 

That's the only thing I never do

 

Don't understand the appeal at all

 

Can't even be bothered to watch nightmare runs

[Tartlman]

20 minutes ago, Clippy said:

 

That's the only thing I never do

 

Don't understand the appeal at all

 

Can't even be bothered to watch nightmare runs

"We choose to do it not because we can, but because it is hard. Now I will eat this bag of pinecones because it is also hard."

[seed]

It very much is, yes. Tricky and difficult in parts, depending on your skill and experience, but still very much fair.

[GarrettChan]

2 hours ago, Wagi said:

MAP03 locks you in a coverless room with an archvile.

Unless you know that you'll only take 20 damage behind those short stumps since they are equal or higher than 24 units :P

But that's too deep and I will believe they did that accidentally.

[Hitscanning_scumbag]

It's mostly fair. But there's some areas where cacos and elementals Show up behind you while you're not looking? 

Or even that one spot in map 5,  I think, 

Where the archviles come out to play while I'm on the run from two barons like really why. That doesn't require skill, it's just a nasty trap, which I'm not a fan of. 

[DynamiteKaitorn]

Depends on the map. Some of plutonia's maps aren't too bad to complete and have traps you can easily survive, even if they're tricky. maps 32 and 22 come into mind for fun levels with traps that aren't impossible to deal with. (Yes I AM quoting GO2IT).

 

At the same time, Plutonia DOES have some pretty BS traps like MAP08's blue skull key trapping you between a small wave of chaingunners on both sides with semi-literally no exit or cover.

[DSC]

Not especially unfair, IMO.

[SaladBadger]

you know, I'm thinking of the times I've played Plutonia pistol starts, first on HMP and later UV, and I honestly cannot think of a time where I thought "man, this is complete bullshit", and I'm not a particularly skilled player, so I'd say it's fair. Difficulty levels do help some if you're really struggling, though I do find easy starts tipping the game a bit too far in the easiness (maybe not a bad thing though?) I remember a setup where you're stuck in a tight area where a bunch of monster closets all over the space with barons pop open, on easy that's reduced all the way down to imps.

[Hitscanning_scumbag]

59 minutes ago, DynamiteKaitorn said:

Depends on the map. Some of plutonia's maps aren't too bad to complete and have traps you can easily survive, even if they're tricky. maps 32 and 22 come into mind for fun levels with traps that aren't impossible to deal with. (Yes I AM quoting GO2IT).

Weirdly enough, I think GO2IT is my favorite level in the entire wad. 

[Maser]

1 hour ago, Hitscanning_scumbag said:

Weirdly enough, I think GO2IT is my favorite level in the entire wad. 

 

That map almost seems like a reward map rather than a secret slaughter map.  I'll never get tired of seeing that huge wall of Revenants that greets you in the big open area.

[Hitscanning_scumbag]

Haha. I love the challenge it provides. 

[VanaheimRanger]

I recently played Plutonia again, and after playing so many community wads I found it to be quite tame by comparison.  I would say that at the time it was released, it was very hard and probably widely considered to be unfair.  However, by today's standards, it doesn't hold up to that outlook.

[RemoveUwU]

I think it's kinda like a strict dad, you know?

It might be rough at times, but it's fair in its own way

Also, for me at least, served as a way to get used to being tricked and surviving punishment

[Gokuma]

My only complaints are the original dos 1.9 version missing starts in some maps.  How do you manage that?

 

And putting hitscanners or Arch-Viles behind opaque 2-sided lines.   OH something is shooting or flaming & about to blast me.   It's probably behind this 128x128 vine covered brick texture set up in a recess in the wall that's just a little too high for me to step up to.   So I'll shoot there to stop it.

 

It's just nonsensical and looks dumb and is a cheap way to try to create difficulty.   I'd rather have 30 revenants teleport in than see an instance of that.   The closest thing there should ever be to it is a 2-sided false wall you can walk through in the spirit of Jim Henson's the Labyrinth.

[Gokuma]

12 hours ago, ketmar said:

Plutonia is "let's make Contra, but for Doom".

I once beat Contra for NES without dying.   I used the 30 lives code so I had 39 lives at the end.

[MFG38]

I'd say it's mostly fair, excepting the nasty traps and the occasionally excessive use of chaingunners. Particularly in that one portion of MAP15.

[DSC]

Just now, MFG38 said:

I'd say it's mostly fair, excepting the nasty traps and the occasionally excessive use of chaingunners. Particularly in that one portion of MAP15.

The one where arch-viles constantly revive them?

[MFG38]

7 minutes ago, DSC said:

The one where arch-viles constantly revive them?

 

Had to take a quick look at the map in-game to find the exact section - there's a reason I don't know Plutonia like the back of my hand. :P But yeah, that does appear to be the one.