There shouldn't be an objective marker

[D88M3R]

On 2/26/2020 at 12:39 PM, Bauul said:

 

There's a link between a game's simplicity and people's ability to remember how to navigate around its levels.  It's no surprise you found Doom 2016 more difficult to navigate than the classic Doom - there's so much more visual fidelity that it's harder to hold the overall level design in your head.  Basically the more complex the graphics of a game gets, the simpler the level design needs to be.  That's why many modern games have an objective marker - so they don't need to cut back on visual fidelity while still ensuring a level remains navigational.

 

Funnily enough I've discovered this in making Elementalism.  I found because of the extra graphical fidelity in those maps I needed to add a lot more signposting and guidance to prevent players from getting lost.  And that's just in GZDoom, let alone something like idTech6.

 

 

As someone who played the whole of Doom 2016 without the objective marker and never once struggled to know where to go, I don't think you can use your own personal experience as a universal source of truth here.

 

SOMA disagrees with you, strongly.
A big game with good graphics and complex levels with little to no spoon feeding (that i can remember) where you have to learn and know where to go as if you really were there, zero markers, zero something or someone interrupting gameplay or immersion to show you where to go, the level design alone leads you to your objetive.

 

2 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

It's a AAA game in 2020, they need to be accessible to the lowest common denominator.

 

Thankfully, unlike Skyrim you never actually need the objective markers to find your way. The levels (in Doom 4 at least) are designed in a straight-forward & intuitive fashion.

 

This.

[jazzmaster9]

29 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

 

SOMA disagrees with you, strongly.
A big game with good graphics and complex levels with little to no spoon feeding (that i can remember) where you have to learn and know where to go as if you really were there, zero markers, zero something or someone interrupting gameplay or immersion to show you where to go, the level design alone leads you to your objetive.

Another Example is Dark Souls 1 but keep in mind those games have drastically different gameplay than Doom 2016 or Eternal.

[Super Mighty G]

3 hours ago, D88M3R said:

 

SOMA disagrees with you, strongly.
A big game with good graphics and complex levels with little to no spoon feeding (that i can remember) where you have to learn and know where to go as if you really were there, zero markers, zero something or someone interrupting gameplay or immersion to show you where to go, the level design alone leads you to your objetive.

 

Nice job comparing a linear, narrative driven game to a level based first person shooter. Very intelligent. 

[FortressOfDoom]

After actually playing the game and seeing the incredible, non-linear level design and exploration elements (where the objective marker is not a crutch at all), I feel obligated to post just how stupid I feel for starting this thread. Id Software, you beauty, you did it.

[Error2k]

On 2/26/2020 at 3:01 AM, Linguica said:

 

i too hate choices

I disabled objective markers and got stuck the first time you visit the hub, because you are forced to follow the objectives there and what you do is illogical. You pick something up (through trial and error because you have no idea where to go) and the next objective is to train in the arena, how the fuck am I supposed to know that with objectives disabled? Stop defending shitty game design. You are like those people who defended Skyrim for having objective markers, "just disable the compass, bro!" yeah and then get stuck because no NPC gives you direction for your quest like in Morrowind. Best case scenario would be not to force the player to go through hub tutorial and just allow them to discover training zone on their own, or just let them move onto the next mission without trying it out.

[Error2k]

On 2/27/2020 at 12:47 AM, jazzmaster9 said:

Imagine not allowing other people to enjoy games...

That's corporate logic fueled by greed, mass appeal = good. No. Mass appeal creates watered down experiences. Those casual players have their own hobbies they are good at and I have mine. One person will be a big movie nerd and will hate entry level garbage like superhero movies and the other will be a FPS video game fan who will hate objective markers in their games. Corporations try to bring both audiences together. In case of video games they try to streamline them as much as possible creating shitty mediocre experience for everyone involved. I can't believe we came to the point where people are unironically defending corporate logic and defend trash like loot boxes and mass appeal. Stick to your own hobbies.

[seed]

12 minutes ago, Error2k said:

You are like those people who defended Skyrim for having objective markers, "just disable the compass, bro!" yeah and then get stuck because no NPC gives you direction for your quest like in Morrowind.

 

No, I don't think so. Have you actually played the game? Many quests do give hints if not exact locations you need to visit, though.

 

I've played Skyrim mostly without HUD (thanks iHUD), I've seen people play it without it either, and it really isn't that bad, and again, the journal has plenty of information usually, if not the NPCs themselves - "Heard they're reforming the Dawnguard, vampire hunters or something, in the old fort near Riften. Might consider joining up myself". Or about the DB sanctuary door in Dawnstar, or the shrine of Azura, etc. And that's only 3 very simple examples.

 

Not suggestive at all I guess. And you can also occasionally open the map y'know.

[ptoing]

12 minutes ago, Error2k said:

loot boxes

 

Who is defending lootboxes (not like DE has them anyway)

The main issue here with what you call "mass appeal" is that id has to recoup the cost that was sunk into the game, they are not doing this out of pure love, they want to make a profit. I give it to you that the objective marker thing in DE might not work as well as it could at all times, but in general I found it pretty unintrusive.

[NoXion]

The comparison to SOMA doesn't work because it has a completely different atmosphere from Doom Eternal. In the former you're a scared civilian thrown into weird circumstances, and in the latter you're a sci-fi barbarian fighting an ancient enemy. The latter is more likely to know where the hell they're going, so it makes sense that the navigation is made easier.

[jazzmaster9]

4 hours ago, Error2k said:

That's corporate logic fueled by greed, mass appeal = good. No. Mass appeal creates watered down experiences.

There is a balance that can be struck.

Not everything is so black and white when it comes the game design.

Let me educate you. 

 

Giving the player choices allow you to give the player the experience they want. Thats why options and difficulty selections exists,

Its why skills that you can choose to level up to fit your play style exists,

"You control the buttons you press" -id Software

And I'm not going to stop other people from doing so or let stop id from putting those choices.

 

4 hours ago, Error2k said:

 I can't believe we came to the point where people are unironically defending corporate logic and defend trash like loot boxes

Who's defending loot boxes here. Are you even in the right forum?

 

4 hours ago, Error2k said:

Stick to your own hobbies.

Gatekeeping 101

Keep it up! Gotta bump up those "Im a hardcore gamer" points.

Edited March 29, 2020 by jazzmaster9

[Super Mighty G]

4 hours ago, Error2k said:

defend trash like loot boxes

I'll take "Things that Didn't Happen" for 200, Alex. 

[jazzmaster9]

Just now, Super Mighty G said:

I'll take "Things that Didn't Happen" for 200, Alex. 

I swear this guy is just making things up to cause drama.

[Deleted_Account]

“Real” DOOM shouldn’t have an automap.

[TheRedTide]

Real Doom shouldn't have guns, or enemies for that matter. It should be exploration only, like Shadowgate 64.

[jazzmaster9]

2 minutes ago, TheRedTide said:

Real Doom shouldn't have guns, or enemies for that matter. It should be exploration only, like Shadowgate 64.

No that would be casualized, Doom should be for Hardcore gamers ONLY.

Stick to your own hobbies^TM people.

[Deleted_Account]

“Real” id Software shouldn’t have made Doom in the first place.

 

Stick to your calisthenics people.

[DuckReconMajor]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:49 PM, FortressOfDoom said:

After actually playing the game and seeing the incredible, non-linear level design and exploration elements (where the objective marker is not a crutch at all), I feel obligated to post just how stupid I feel for starting this thread. Id Software, you beauty, you did it.

 

Lol I stomped into this thread all mad and now i'm mad that I'm not as mad.

 

I just remember playing WoW before having the Quest Helper addon and how frustrating it was. 

I get the appeal of exploration but you can do that without instructions being unclear. 

Of course some will get lucky and find everything first-try, then go online and spout how everyone else needs to "learn to pay attention" or some crap.

 

If it's taking more than 10 or 20 minutes to find the next objective, I'm hitting up a walkthrough. I'm getting too old for this nonsense.

 

But yes, I totally agree with your post, the game did a great job of making things straightforward while still letting you explore.

 

Finally, folks that act like the original Doom games and wads were more straightforward, with their less-than-obvious progression paths and softlocks, did we play the same games?

With Doom wads it's even worse because there's often not info online for any but the most popular, and you have to make the decision whether to just cheat through or not.

[seed]

On 3/31/2020 at 1:41 AM, DuckReconMajor said:

Finally, folks that act like the original Doom games and wads were more straightforward, with their less-than-obvious progression paths and softlocks, did we play the same games?

 

With older wads, that might be true honestly, as they do tend to be more straightforward (Eternal Doom doesn't count), but with modern ones? Not my experience at all, if the mapper places great emphasis on exploration. I tend to get lost more often than I get to shoot things.

[silvercue]

If I wanted to play hide and seek I would go play with the kids.  

[Eurisko]

How did this thread not die after the second post? lol

[Mr. Impso]

someone might have mentioned this already but Imma say something anyways. 
I don't mind the objective marker. 
what I do mind is the compass. 
it's ass. it's compASS.

yeah it points you in the general direction of where you need to go, but it gives little in the ways of if you need to go up or down. 
I'm playing on console, with a smaller tv, so for all I know there might be tics that show up or down, but if that's the case then damn they must be tiny because I never saw them. And my problem is that if I'm given a compass, my instincts are to fucking ride the compass like nobody's business. 
I rely on the compass. If your compass is shit, that's no good

[A Nobody]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:34 PM, FortressOfDoom said:

One of the core components of Doom was key hunting. Searching and backtracking the levels and discovering the whereabouts the red/blue/yellow keys was a great compliment to the normally action heavy gameplay, and it also served as the game's objective system, i.e. getting all 3 keys to find the exit.

 

Doom 2016 and DE also have a key based objective system in the sense that you need keys to progress through the level. However I feel it is somewhat diluted by the fact that there is always an objective marker on the screen telling you exactly where to go. So the objective system becomes less about discovering the keys and more about simply following the compass. This way of managing level objectives was first introduced by Medal of Honor, taking away the autonomy from the player of deciding where to go next, which made sense for MoH and the plethora of on-rails shooters that followed.

 

But imo it doesn't make sense for Doom. From what I can see in the previews, the level design in DE is pretty decent and layered - why doesn't the game simply let the player discover where to go next? Wouldn't it be a better way to show off the levels? The player will discover the correct path eventually, and the upside is they will also get that good feeling of 'discovering' the key locations for themselves rather than being spoon-fed. Also they will naturally stumble upon more secrets.

 

I know some folks are going to tell me there is an option in the UI to switch off the objective marker, but my point is it shouldn't be there at all as a design choice because it takes away player autonomy to hunt for objectives themselves.

 

 

Luckily you can turn it off in Doom 4. I'm guessing it's the same for Eternal.

[D88M3R]

On 2/29/2020 at 8:20 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

Another Example is Dark Souls 1 but keep in mind those games have drastically different gameplay than Doom 2016 or Eternal.

 

On 2/29/2020 at 11:12 PM, Super Mighty G said:

Nice job comparing a linear, narrative driven game to a level based first person shooter. Very intelligent. 

 

On 3/28/2020 at 5:33 PM, NoXion said:

The comparison to SOMA doesn't work because it has a completely different atmosphere from Doom Eternal. In the former you're a scared civilian thrown into weird circumstances, and in the latter you're a sci-fi barbarian fighting an ancient enemy. The latter is more likely to know where the hell they're going, so it makes sense that the navigation is made easier.

I honestly dont see how the genre of the game is relevant.

 

On 3/28/2020 at 5:12 PM, Error2k said:

That's corporate logic fueled by greed, mass appeal = good. No. Mass appeal creates watered down experiences. Those casual players have their own hobbies they are good at and I have mine. One person will be a big movie nerd and will hate entry level garbage like superhero movies and the other will be a FPS video game fan who will hate objective markers in their games. Corporations try to bring both audiences together. In case of video games they try to streamline them as much as possible creating shitty mediocre experience for everyone involved. I can't believe we came to the point where people are unironically defending corporate logic and defend trash like loot boxes and mass appeal. Stick to your own hobbies.

I completely agree, but is never not gonna happen, business people will always meddle with art until it becomes a product with little to none artistic merit.

Regarding the compass or whatever, i deactivated right away, but sometimes you have no clue where to go (yes, the old Doom did it too, but that was 25 years ago, they have no excuse) and you have to activate it, but like in pretty much ANY game with a compass it makes everything more confusing because it does not properly tell you where you have to go, it just points forward when you are on the right spot and that is it. Same thing happened in the previous game if i remember correctly.

I feel like the levels in the old Dooms were its own thing, its own entity, the objetive of a level was getting out of it after all, but in the new one and the previous one the levels are just a background for the arena battles, you just have to keep moving forward until the next arena and that is it.

[seed]

13 hours ago, D88M3R said:

I honestly dont see how the genre of the game is relevant.

 

Yeah, I, too, love comparing apples with oranges.

[NoXion]

14 hours ago, D88M3R said:

I honestly dont see how the genre of the game is relevant.

Ludonarrative assonance. It makes sense that an ordinary civilian with no previous combat experience and no known navigation abilities would need to carefully explore an unfamiliar environment in order to survive and progress. On the flipside we all know that the Slayer was not only a trained marine right from the start, but also that he is a hardened veteran with years (possibly centuries) of experience fighting the Legions of Hell on their home turf.

I think you'd have a hard picking two games with more different kinds of protagonists. Of course one would have a harder time (reflected in the players' need to carefully observe and explore the game environments) moving through the world than the other.

Edited April 12, 2020 by NoXion

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Whether the markers can be turned on or off is irrelevant and makes no difference.

 

The truth of the matter is that the levels are all designed so that the player is led to the right area, with or without a marker. The basic idea is that even a child will know where to go next. The option concerning markers is only there as a sop to so-called old-school players. It gives them the illusion of figuring out for themselves (as they actually once did) the path forward. In reality they have been directed by subliminal clues the entire time.