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Core gameplay differences between complevel 9 and complevel 11?

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I'm working on a top-secret project and wanted to ask if there are any discernible gameplay differences between boom (-complevel 9) and MBF (-complevel 11) when not playing an MBF level. Like how if you played Plutonia with -complevel 9, you might notice monsters getting pushed off ledges and whatnot.

 

I'm not too familiar with MBF beyond friendly things and what it adds to dehacked and stuff, so I don't know if there are any actual changes to the base gameplay that would be noticeable over boom gameplay. I just wanna know if I can set MBF to be the default complevel in prboom+ and not have any discrepancies in regular boom maps.

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The differences are substantial: 

 

- complevel 11 changes infighting behavior by giving monsters the cool-off countdown upon being alerted. For infighting purposes, each monster wakes up as if you "shot it" already. Of course, that makes infighting quite unreliable. In a cl9 mapset designed tightly around the standard core mechanics, that might be a serious nuisance, if not gamebreaking. 

 

- MBF introduces a number of bugs (many are not listed here). Notably, Valiant had to redesign many of its exits in the RC stage due to the MBF three-key bug. A good number of cl9 maps are certainly going to suffer from either gamebreakers or inconveniences. 

 

- MBF draws input from the player's own configuration settings. Decino, early in his playthrough of Eviternity, unwittingly toggled off the option that allowed dead players to exit, resulting in map05's death exit breaking for him -- a problem resolved only through a hunch of mine. In a DWMC playthrough of Valiant, some prBoom+ users reported ghost monsters, due to their local settings. 

 

The third is negotiable by adjusting your configuration settings appropriately. The first two aren't. 

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7 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

The differences are substantial: 

I knew there was something different with infighting but wasn't sure of the exact difference there.  This knowledge will be useful as I am also making a WAD with a -cl 11 gameplay mod (Mini-Charge) at it's core.  The 3 key bug could be an issue.  What exactly is the problem with it?  I already designed one map with a 3 key door that seems to work fine, what should I be looking out for with this?

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12 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

- MBF draws input from the player's own configuration settings.

Thanks for the knowledge about this since I've been wondering the difference between cl9 and cl11 for quite a bit of time.

 

This one still confuses me. Does this mean some behaviors are the settings of your PrBoom+? Talking about this, I think PrBoom+ can also emulate all ghost effects in the settings even I load the game with cl2 since I encountered this while running BtSX E1M07 way back then. I don't know how to put this question in a better way, but I hope this can explains my problem here. Thanks.

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21 minutes ago, guitardz said:

What exactly is the problem with it?  I already designed one map with a 3 key door that seems to work fine, what should I be looking out for with this?

 

Holding a yellow skull key (YSK) prevents a generalized three-key door from functioning, regardless of what other keys you have. To be clear, by a "three-key door" I mean a Generalized (Locked Door) with settings of "Lock: All" and "Combination: Keycard and Skullkey are the same." So this applies to usable doors, remote switches, and even walkover triggers. 

 

But want to avoid this problem by never placing a YSK? No guarantee that works. As long as you have both a red and blue key of any type, you can open a three-key door. In a non-linear key collector map, the player would be able to bypass the yellow key.  

 

13 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

This one still confuses me. Does this mean some behaviors are the settings of your PrBoom+?

 

Correct. The ghost effect I'm referring to is the more mundane one -- an individual monster, crushed, resurrected as a ghost. 

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Just now, rdwpa said:

Correct. The ghost effect I'm referring to is the more mundane one -- an individual monster, crushed, resurrected as a ghost. 

Oh I know what you meant by ghost monsters (and I am aware of that ghost monster won't happen on cl9). I was raising that all ghost effect example just to show it seems cl2 also has something to do with the user settings. This makes me concerning about that demos could desync due to different user settings?

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I'll pose this question then: Wouldn't cl11 maps play better in cl-1? I assume -1 allows for the extra MBF content. From my casual perspective, I see no significant difference between cl9 and -1, assuming "monsters remember target" is set to on and the rest left on default. I've done a few cl-1 demos for cl9 maps and did not find them to play any differently from non-demo play with compat set to Boom. Mainly because cl-1 supports -longtics and I much prefer that my game feels the same when demo recording as when I play normally. 

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2 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

This makes me concerning about that demos could desync due to different user settings?

 

It happens. Thankfully it's very rare. 

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25 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

Holding a yellow skull key (YSK) prevents a generalized three-key door from functioning, regardless of what other keys you have. To be clear, by a "three-key door" I mean a Generalized (Locked Door) with settings of "Lock: All" and "Combination: Keycard and Skullkey are the same." So this applies to usable doors, remote switches, and even walkover triggers. 

 

But want to avoid this problem by never placing a YSK? No guarantee that works. As long as you have both a red and blue key of any type, you can open a three-key door. In a non-linear key collector map, the player would be able to bypass the yellow key.  

Ah, okay.  Luckily, the one I currently have uses keycards and not skull keys.  Will need to keep an eye on this in future maps.  Thanks.

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Valiant's solution is instructive. It uses the skull keys as often as it wants to, including the YSK. But where it would have used generalized three-key doors, it uses three separate triggers -- often a tightly packed sequence of doors or an array of switches. 

 

28 minutes ago, Spectre01 said:

I'll pose this question then: Wouldn't cl11 maps play better in cl-1? I assume -1 allows for the extra MBF content. [...]

 

It does. I can't vouch from personal experience, but I've seen this recommended as a way of getting around the MBF bugs. 

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On 2/28/2020 at 11:23 PM, Spectre01 said:

I'll pose this question then: Wouldn't cl11 maps play better in cl-1? I assume -1 allows for the extra MBF content. From my casual perspective, I see no significant difference between cl9 and -1, assuming "monsters remember target" is set to on and the rest left on default. I've done a few cl-1 demos for cl9 maps and did not find them to play any differently from non-demo play with compat set to Boom. Mainly because cl-1 supports -longtics and I much prefer that my game feels the same when demo recording as when I play normally. 

Sorry for the bump, but is cl-1 actually accessible from the prboom+ menu? This isn't just "latest prboom" (cl17), right? 

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10 hours ago, Spectre01 said:

@Krull It should be the same as "latest prboom".

Well, in that case, it's not quite true to call it MBF without the bugs. Complevel 11 supports A_MUSHROOM's misc1 & 2 parameters, whereas cl17 just uses a default angle & speed when that codepointer is called. 

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