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speed_your_feed

Does anyone think that DOOM 64 sucks?

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1 minute ago, User Name said:

Don’t forget on the PSX version of Doom you can fight Doom II monsters in the original Doom levels. Like Chaingunners and that Pain Elemental in E1M1 or Revenants in E1M7. 

 

Yes! This is why I've always wished someone would make a wad of the first game but substitute in Doom 2 enemies wherever it would be appropriate.

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2 hours ago, User Name said:

Don’t forget on the PSX version of Doom you can fight Doom II monsters in the original Doom levels. Like Chaingunners and that Pain Elemental in E1M1 or Revenants in E1M7. 

On UV difficulty. The HMP difficulty doesn't really have Doom 2 monsters in Doom maps, maybe a few in the later maps.

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2 minutes ago, VGA said:

On UV difficulty. The HMP difficulty doesn't really have Doom 2 monsters in Doom maps, maybe a few in the later maps.

I forgot to mention that! They only appear in the Doon maps if you’ve selected the ultra violence difficulty otherwise the monster roster appears as they originally did.

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2 hours ago, User Name said:

Don’t forget on the PSX version of Doom you can fight Doom II monsters in the original Doom levels. Like Chaingunners and that Pain Elemental in E1M1 or Revenants in E1M7. 


Some different enemy placement too in UV mode, to go with Doom II enemies in Doom I levels...like the Imp in the secret backpack and switch room in E1M2.  And yeah since the PSX version is still so ingrained in my memory banks even now, I kinda miss not seeing the Doom II enemies when I’m playing on the Switch...E1M7 almost feels a little weird not having the (severely nerfed) revenants there.  

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7 hours ago, Devils950003 said:

PSX Ultimate Doom

I know about PSX Doom, which is a combo port of PC Doom and Doom II together, and PSX Final Doom, which is a combo port of Master Levels, TNT: Evilution, and Plutonia Experiment together; but I've never heard about PSX Ultimate Doom.

 

8 hours ago, Impboy4 said:

Wrong, Doom 64 IS a sequel to Doom II on PC. The official Doom Wiki says it.  The only thing it got from PSX Doom was the same material as well as the same engine code (albeit more improved).

PSX Doom is PC Doom 1 + PC Doom II, so whether it's a sequel to PSX Doom or a sequel to PC Doom II changes nothing.

 

4 hours ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

Yes! This is why I've always wished someone would make a wad of the first game but substitute in Doom 2 enemies wherever it would be appropriate.

I've never felt the way PSX Doom does it was in any way appropriate. Like putting a pain elemental in Hangar? Long before the Cacodemon is introduced? Doesn't make sense.

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1 hour ago, Gez said:

I know about PSX Doom, which is a combo port of PC Doom and Doom II together, and PSX Final Doom, which is a combo port of Master Levels, TNT: Evilution, and Plutonia Experiment together; but I've never heard about PSX Ultimate Doom.

 

PSX Doom is PC Doom 1 + PC Doom II, so whether it's a sequel to PSX Doom or a sequel to PC Doom II changes nothing.

 

I've never felt the way PSX Doom does it was in any way appropriate. Like putting a pain elemental in Hangar? Long before the Cacodemon is introduced? Doesn't make sense.


You can select Ultimate Doom or Doom II from the PSX Version’s main menu.  PSX Ultimate Doom is as I previously described...one continuous playthrough of Doom I and II, with no episodes, so whatever weapons you acquire, you keep throughout.  This makes the levels that originally appeared at the beginning of each PC Doom I episode much easier to tackle, as you’re not having to find and manage your weapons and ammo from a pistol start.  

 

PSX Ultimate Doom is not truly the PC Dooms...what would constitute the bulk of the Doom I levels is based on the Jag map set, which means levels have been simplified, shortened, and/or revamped (in some cases for the better), some levels have been removed altogether, and some new ones have been added.  PSX added some lighting effects, and introduced a new soundtrack and sound FXs.  What had previously been the fourth episode of Doom I and much of Doom II are closer to their PC counterparts on the PSX than the ported over Jag levels, but there’s still some differences from the PC versions.
 

PSX Ultimate Doom is obviously heavily based on the PC versions of Doom I and II, but is quite different overall.

 

Agree in that some of the Doom II enemy placement in Doom I levels was not well thought out.  You have two chances to nab the chaingun before finding it outside in E1M2, due to the chaingunner’s presence in both E1M1 and E1M2...he shouldn’t have been introduced until after you find your first chaingun.  And yeah, the Pain Elemental being in the secret area in E1M1 feels out of place.

 

And as far as D64 goes, really wish both the chaingunner/heavy artillery dude and the revenant hadn’t been cut from the roster.  They’re missed.  

Edited by Devils950003

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14 minutes ago, Devils950003 said:

And as far as D64 goes, really wish both the chaingunner/heavy artillery dude and the revenant hadn’t been cut from the roster.  They’re missed.  

 

Spider Mastermind is missing too. Oh, and don't forget the Archvile! He's gone too! Poor Archvile! Everyone loves him.

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2 minutes ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

 

Spider Mastermind is missing too. Oh, and don't forget the Archvile! He's gone too! Poor Archvile! Everyone loves him.


Don’t mind the Archvile not being included, but a D64 take on the Spider Mastermind would’ve been cool.  Especially since the Arachnotrons made the cut.  Would’ve been cool to have seen SM thrown into one of the new D64 levels as a surprise, but that would’ve taken more effort.  Oh well.

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1 hour ago, Devils950003 said:

PSX Ultimate Doom is not truly the PC Dooms...what would constitute the bulk of the Doom I levels is based on the Jag map set, which means levels have been simplified, shortened, and/or revamped (in some cases for the better), some levels have been removed altogether, and some new ones have been added.

Does it actually matter at all for the purpose of talking about sequels? Yeah, Doomguy's journey through Phobos, Deimos, Hell, Earth, and Hell again has been altered a bit, but that's just technical details of the implementation. It doesn't change the story at all.

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On 4/9/2020 at 2:29 PM, Devils950003 said:

Weapons:  slight edge to the PSX/N64 for most, much larger one to the PSX/N64 Plasma (hate the PC version)

 

Item Pickups/Doors:  PSX/N64...the PC version really sounds primitive now (though when playing Classic Doom on Switch, that doesn't take me out of the game)

 

Monsters:  PSX/N64...same as above, some (though not all) of the PC effects just sound primitive to me

 

I don't really find D64 weapons and monsters too echoey, but I kinda see what you're saying about them almost sounding like they were recorded from just a little too far away.  I wanna get through this playthrough, just so I can do it again without the wandering "What now?" aspect.  For what they levels occasionally lack in user-friendly design and layout, they make for in scenic bliss.  Love the way that this game looks.   

Yeah, how could I forget the plasma. The PC sfx are dreadful. More suited for space invaders. Having played a bit of D64 again a few days ago, I think the BFG sound is better too, so maybe it's actually more 50/50 for me on the weapon sounds.

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14 minutes ago, User Name said:

The missing monsters were cut for cartridge space otherwise they would have been included.


Everyone knows that...just lamenting their exclusion.  

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17 minutes ago, Gez said:

Does it actually matter at all for the purpose of talking about sequels? Yeah, Doomguy's journey through Phobos, Deimos, Hell, Earth, and Hell again has been altered a bit, but that's just technical details of the implementation. It doesn't change the story at all.


Most people probably don’t care, but I do think calling D64 the sequel to PC Doom II and not the PSX version isn’t accurate.  I’ve already explained why in detail.  A D64 taking its lead from the PC Dooms would’ve likely had a much different feel (perhaps a more metal-based soundtrack, brighter visuals/different lighting, etc).  

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Presentation details that do not have story relevance. The people who made Doom 64 are also the people who made PSX Doom, so of course they had the same design sensibilities. But I do not consider that changing the soundtrack of the lighting is sufficient to say that actually, PSX Doom is a parallel universe to PC Doom. Differences in implementation, ports trying to get some exclusive stuff to offset the content cut due to the console's limitations, this kind of things. It's the kind of things that should be expected, especially back then, before cross-platform development kits like Unity existed. But in the end, it's still Doom. The Doom 64 story does not refer specifically to Icon of Sin or Redemption Denied, or to any other detail specific to one particular version of Doom.

 

It's like, both halves of Final Doom are sequels to Doom II. Does it matter if the order is TNT, then Plutonia; or Plutonia, then TNT? It doesn't. Both possibilities are equally valid, and equally irrelevant, really. It's just Doom. There are demon-infested zones. Get your gun and clean them up. End of story.

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Actually, that’s how I think of the PSX and PC Dooms...Fringe-style parallel universes.  They’re obviously similar in many ways, yet just different enough that you very quickly realize you’re not in the same world.  And it’s a simple case of D64 fitting in one universe more than the other...but yeah, in the end it’s about killing baddies and finding every last goodie, secret, and hidden level...no matter what version you’re playing.  I’ve had equal fun playing in both “universes”...with the most fun derived from my custom matchup of PSX music with the Switch Doom.  
 

There wasn’t much of a story to the classic games (yes, there was some), so I don’t factor that in as having any major significance.  And I actually liked that story wasn’t a key consideration for those games.  

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On 3/9/2020 at 2:54 PM, speed_your_feed said:

Now, to be honest, I hate DOOM 64. I think that Midway Games didn't need to change the whole story, the sprites AND the soundtrack. That soundtrack... for me is disappointing. Aubrey Hodges made the soundtrack more scary than metal. In some songs you can even hear babies crying! I expected the same game, just ported to the N64. I prefer to play the PSX version. Lemme know your opinion!

I for one think Doom 64's sprites are awesome. I also love the enemy, weapon, marine, and miscellaneous sounds.

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On 4/11/2020 at 6:42 PM, The Strife Commando said:

I for one think Doom 64's sprites are awesome. I also love the enemy, weapon, marine, and miscellaneous sounds.

 

If I've been playing Doom 1 for a while, it takes me a little while to get used to the D64 look...but yeah, the D64 graphics in general really do look quite nice.  And some of the later levels are definitely VERY easy on the eyes.  Pitfalls really does a great job making you feel like those lava pits are so far below you.    

 

You do have to slog your way through some more "boring"-looking levels though, early on...not that anything in D64 really looks bad, but Level 1 in particular is mighty bland.  I could see some players almost getting a little bored if they don't give D64 enough of a chance (or get frustrated with some of the puzzles).  And I wish many levels in general were a little less square-ish.  Lots of right angles in D64 for sure.  

 

On Level 24 now and really looking forward to seeing what The Lost Levels have to offer.  I only wish that they had come up with a new boss for the "true" final level (instead of the Mother Demon Part Deux), but I'm just happy to have new levels to play through...at the very least, they'll make D64 feel more fleshed-out...even though some levels are long (especially if you're not sure what to do in some of them), the original D64 did feel just a bit short to me.  Feels like that just the right amount of levels have been added.  

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I think Doom 64 is a good game. I love its atmosphere. I also really like its take on the chaingun. It's extremely satisfying. I think the new graphics are quite nice and compliment the new atmosphere. Also, it's really fun.

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I can't seem to find interest in anything outside of classic Doom 1 and 2

 

Not sure what everyone is attacking the OP so hard just for an opinion

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I love DOOM 64. some people say the sprites are downgrades, I think they're upgrades. The chains on the caco make him look so cool! The only design I don't understand is the pain elemental. The Arachnotron looks sweet. The Cyberdemon adds a nice texture. Nightmare imps look great, and the fact that Zombiemen and Shotgun guys look so similar makes the game a bit harder, and those lost souls are pretty cool, too. The nice amount of pickups is great, and the game implements awesome exploration. Also, I know this topic was released before the re-release but the lost levels were soooooo good. 

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On 4/11/2020 at 6:25 AM, Phobos Anomaly said:

 

Spider Mastermind is missing too. Oh, and don't forget the Archvile! He's gone too! Poor Archvile! Everyone loves him.

how bout' Wolfenstein SS and Commander Keen, they are also missed,

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2 hours ago, LiT_gam3r said:

I love DOOM 64. some people say the sprites are downgrades, I think they're upgrades. The chains on the caco make him look so cool! The only design I don't understand is the pain elemental. The Arachnotron looks sweet. The Cyberdemon adds a nice texture. Nightmare imps look great, and the fact that Zombiemen and Shotgun guys look so similar makes the game a bit harder, and those lost souls are pretty cool, too. The nice amount of pickups is great, and the game implements awesome exploration. Also, I know this topic was released before the re-release but the lost levels were soooooo good. 

 

Overall after a couple of playthroughs on the Switch I think it's a mixed bag, but with the good outweighing the bad by a fairly significant margin.  If I were to rate D64, I'd give it a 7.5 out of 10.  

 

I mentioned this previously, but I think the demon and imp redesigns feel more cute than scary...but as I've gotten used to them again, they've grown on me.  All of the other redesigns, new textures, and new backgrounds I have no issues with.  Some of the levels are really striking (the huge columns room in Dark Citadel still looks so cleanly amazing to me).  And yeah, some of the enemy upgrades were very well done...I'd put the Caco at the top of the list.  

 

Some of the puzzles/secrets are too clever and obscure for their own good, but once solved and/or looked up, that's no longer an issue, so that's really only a temporary problem.  Ditto some VERY cheap traps here and there.  

 

Platforming is occasionally too floaty and imprecise.  Some timing sequences take more attempts then they really should as a result, even when you've already figured out what to do.  

 

One too many moat levels for my liking...that can make things feel a bit repetitive at times.  Some other levels (like The Bleeding and The Lair) feel too similar to each other (and in the case of The Bleeding and The Lair, not helped by the fact that they're pretty close together, in terms of when you play through them...The Bleeding is Level 10, and The Lair is technically Level 12.5, though it's listed at Level 30).  

 

As we know, format restrictions led to some enemies not making the cut.  Even just having the revenants would've been cool.  Lost souls are bit aggravating at times, but at least they can be taken down more quickly.

 

On one hand, a powered-up Unmaker can definitely feel overpowered and unbalanced, but on the other, it does help you deal with some of the more absurd traps this game throws at you.  Or when there's a section full of bullet sponges (or lost souls) that you'd just rather get done with.  

 

Most of what the Lost Levels offer is solid and I'll take a nice addition of new levels to explore over none at all, but Final Judgment was way too derivative of No Escape and The Absolution level.  Felt too much like a quick uninspired mash-up of both.  A fully-loaded Unmaker takes out the Mother/Sister Demon with minimal effort (as you know you can't face the Sister Demon without it, with the Demon Artifacts acting as keys, and you need all of them to release the Sister Demon).  It almost feels like the designers lost interest after creating the first batch of Lost Levels, and went half-assed on Final Judgment.  

 

Like I said, overall I still enjoy D64 for the visuals and general combat, and for the fact that it builds off everything that I loved about the PSX reimagining of what Doom could be...even retaining the play mechanics, as opposed to updating them to include jumping, crouching, up-and-down looking, etc.  There's many awesome moments to be had here.  But there's just enough flaws that keep it from being everything that it could have been.  

 

 

Edited by Devils950003

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9 hours ago, Clippy said:

Not sure what everyone is attacking the OP so hard just for an opinion


I like Doom 64, but agree with this 100%

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I can see why someone wouldn't like doom 64. The secrets are...different, there are different animations, sounds and there is an ambient soundtrack. 

As far as that goes, I have to say that objectively it is made pretty competently. In fact, introducing some aspects of Doom we didn't see before this release. Look at the first secret exit for Hectic. Triggers like that are literally unheard of and I would love to play maps with puzzle style secrets like that is introduced in Doom 64. I will also say that with the limited memory and the limited space that they had to deal with they were really resourceful with how that created the worlds. The maps are not that big but still give a grandiose sense (look at eye of the storm). Sure you don't have Bridgeburner or Insane Gazeboo level maps that are quite literally the size of small cities. But the ambience leads you to believe they are that big. I will also say that I like the idea of item traps. Again look at hectic. You want that blue armor don't you, get's gibbed. Hah, here's a soulsphere sike. It adds to the fact you are fighting demons and they can play dirty. Makes you have to watch your step a little. 

Now subjectively, the game can get grindy. Doing it 100% feels unnecessary. I end every level with 200/200. To the game's credit the secrets feel more like utility (If you need them) implements and you shouldn't be grinding each level out looking for them. Plus Mother Demon is an absolute push over if you have all the runes. Don't get me started on the "Fun" maps (ultra-secret levels). 

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18 minutes ago, I_Punch_Demons said:

I can see why someone wouldn't like doom 64. The secrets are...different, there are different animations, sounds and there is an ambient soundtrack. 

 

I'd say for those who spent a lot of time with the PSX version (especially those like me who had only played console versions to that point, but mostly PSX Doom), the D64 sounds (recycled from PSX Doom) and soundtrack felt completely normal.  The same exact sound effects being re-used gave those PSX-D64 versions a certain continuity, though D64 obviously had a considerably different look.  And of course, D64 enemies didn't necessarily have to emerge from behind walls and doors as part of a trap...they were free to teleport in, anytime, anywhere.  It happens so often that you're almost shocked when picking up a key or armor doesn't trigger anything.

 

I did find that new look a bit jarring when I first played it, in 1997.  So much so that after messing around with it for an hour or two, I didn't come back to it for a couple of weeks.  Took a little while to get used to it again this time around too.  

 

And yeah, the levels tend to feel bigger than they actually are in D64 for sure.  

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3 hours ago, Devils950003 said:

 

I'd say for those who spent a lot of time with the PSX version (especially those like me who had only played console versions to that point, but mostly PSX Doom), the D64 sounds (recycled from PSX Doom) and soundtrack felt completely normal....

Agreed, but also remember for the PSX version there was also colored lighting, which wouldn't sound major until you consider the brightness that is Doom on PC vs. ambient lighting and different colors changing the tone and feel. But I agree it felt normal like I was in an alien film. 

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30 minutes ago, I_Punch_Demons said:

Agreed, but also remember for the PSX version there was also colored lighting, which wouldn't sound major until you consider the brightness that is Doom on PC vs. ambient lighting and different colors changing the tone and feel. But I agree it felt normal like I was in an alien film. 


Yeah loved that PSX lighting at the time.  And the D64 lighting (though it’s nice that the latest D64 ports aren’t as dark as the original D64). 

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14 hours ago, Devils950003 said:

I still enjoy D64 for the visuals and general combat.... But there's just enough flaws that keep it from being everything that it could have been.  

 

I think the game was released at a time where most people were not too interested in Doom anymore. That plus Goldeneye 007 was the biggest game on N64 that year, and Final Fantasy VII on PlayStation. Then of course in 1998 Metal Gear Solid was released and that game made severe ripples in the gaming pond.

I always remember a friend of mine who borrowed his cousin's N64 in early 2000 and he was astonished, saying to me, hey this isn't just Doom on N64, it's a completely different game, and I was like, yes, I know, been playing the game for the past couple of years.

 

I can't really speak for other countries but here in the UK the Nintendo 64 was regarded as a "toy", and even though you could say that about every games console, the N64 seemed to be associated more with children, whereas the PlayStation was more for adults and this I think is another reason why Doom 64 passed by a lot of gamers at the time.

 

I myself also was used to Doom only on PlayStation, I didn't get into PC gaming until the late 90s, so Doom 64 didn't seem like a major departure from the PC games like it might have been if you were used to the PC originals only. Took me a while to get used to the PC music actually. It seemed silly at first, but now I love it.

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3 hours ago, Boaby Kenobi said:

 

I think the game was released at a time where most people were not too interested in Doom anymore. That plus Goldeneye 007 was the biggest game on N64 that year, and Final Fantasy VII on PlayStation. Then of course in 1998 Metal Gear Solid was released and that game made severe ripples in the gaming pond.

I always remember a friend of mine who borrowed his cousin's N64 in early 2000 and he was astonished, saying to me, hey this isn't just Doom on N64, it's a completely different game, and I was like, yes, I know, been playing the game for the past couple of years.

 

I can't really speak for other countries but here in the UK the Nintendo 64 was regarded as a "toy", and even though you could say that about every games console, the N64 seemed to be associated more with children, whereas the PlayStation was more for adults and this I think is another reason why Doom 64 passed by a lot of gamers at the time.

 

I myself also was used to Doom only on PlayStation, I didn't get into PC gaming until the late 90s, so Doom 64 didn't seem like a major departure from the PC games like it might have been if you were used to the PC originals only. Took me a while to get used to the PC music actually. It seemed silly at first, but now I love it.

 

Yeah there was definitely some confusion as to what D64 actually was; for some reason you had a fair amount of gamers just assuming it was another port of earlier Dooms, even with all of the later articles and screenshots that definitely showed that was not the case at all.  I remember seeing a very early screenshot (likely some other version, but shown as Nintendo 64 Doom...I don't even think it was called Doom 64 at that point), and that screen did have the same layout and look as previous Dooms...made me wonder what exactly was going to be new about this one.  Then I started seeing updates and screenshots that were much closer to what D64 would ultimately become (complete with some of the new enemy designs), and of course then realized that D64 was going to be quite new indeed (yet would remain faithful in general spirit and controls to the PSX version, which I considered a good thing).  I played Goldeneye 007 only a couple of times, on a friend's N64...something about it didn't click with me, but I didn't really give it enough time to "take".  I didn't enjoy Quake or Turok much at all. 

 

N64 most definitely had its share of kiddie fare (though some of those games, like Super Mario 64, were still fun for adults).  From what I've read, that's what led Rare to eventually give the "Family Friendly" trend the finger, with Conker's Bad Fur Day...originally it was supposed to be yet another kid-friendly parent-approved run-around-and-complete-various-tasks kind of game (initially this game was called "Conker's Quest"), but when people started ripping it based on early previews for being too derivative and too cutesy, Rare said "Screw it, let's keep the cute character, but go WAY the other way and have him be foul-mouthed and very rough around the edges."  Wound up being a brilliant change of course actually, especially since most of the code had already been written.  

 

And I agree in that just by sheer looks alone, the N64 did have more of a "toy-like" appearance; the PSX and even the Saturn had a more mature and advanced look to them, even though the N64 had more under the hood.  The Game Cube might have been one of THE most toy-ish looking consoles ever to be released.   

Edited by Devils950003

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While I don't think DOOM 64 is a bad game, I find the level design rather boring. At least it get's better after Level 20.

Edited by Moktar

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