Doom Overrated?

[jazzmaster9]

7 minutes ago, sluggard said:

You're being defensive about the whole NuDoom thing.

again just giving my observations about some of the criticism about NuDoom which is a variation "it's not like how Romero did it" instead of giving objective criticism

6 minutes ago, sluggard said:

my intial post was just a test to see if you'll waste a chance to hop in and defend NuDoom, looks like it worked.

Sure it was... /s

[snapshot]

I don't see that happening here.

5 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Sure it was... /s

If it weren't I would have phrased it differently, but you choose to believe whatever you like.

[jazzmaster9]

7 minutes ago, sluggard said:

I don't see that happening here.

If it weren't I would have phrased it differently, but you choose to believe whatever you like.

I mean point still stands

I love Doom 1/2 but not everything needs to be like them.

Doom 3 was still a great game despite being so drastically different from the first two.

[snapshot]

32 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I mean point still stands

I love Doom 1/2 but not everything needs to be like them.

Doom 3 was still a great game despite being so drastically different from the first two.

I like all the games but I find them all boring as hell, had to force myself to finish it after reaching the Necropolis, they're good games don't get me wrong but I can't help but feel all people do is give them glowing praise all the time.

 

But at the same time I can understand some of the praise considering it's something different than "yet another generic cover shooter"

Edited March 17, 2020 by sluggard

[TakenStew22]

The word overrated is overrated.

[snapshot]

24 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

The word overrated is overrated.

Sad but true.

[Super Mighty G]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

i knew you would take the bait.

what way was i being defensive? im just pointing out my observations

 

3 hours ago, sluggard said:

You're being defensive about the whole NuDoom thing, my intial post was just a test to see if you'll waste a chance to hop in and defend NuDoom, looks like it worked.

[snapshot]

2 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

<cute pic>

That's a pretty intense battle lol

[A Nobody]

The series isn't overrated, but it's not the greatest of all-time. The Doom games have their flaws. With Doom 3, it was obviously a tech demo. Doom 4 had its own flaws, and Eternal may have its own issues too, with one being that it's more story focused. They're good games though.

Edited March 20, 2020 by The Strife Commando

[seed]

5 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

and Eternal may have its own issues too, with one being that it's more story focused.

 

A matter of preference though, not an objective flaw in the game's design.

 

There's enough people out there who actually care about these things, including your truly.

[snapshot]

6 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

With Doom 3, it was obviously a tech demo.

I keep reading this but I never read any convincing reason for why people think so.

[seed]

8 minutes ago, sluggard said:

I keep reading this but I never read any convincing reason for why people think so.

 

Second this. There was quite a bit of content in that game, which you absolutely do not get from glorified tech demos.

[Boaby Kenobi]

The term "Tech-Demo" seems to be applied to pretty much any game that looks or looked great when it was originally released. Some people call Crysis a TD but there's a lot more to that game than pretty graphics.

[Senor500]

No.

[Senor500]

9 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

With Doom 3, it was obviously a tech demo.

I feel like people call Doom 3 a tech demo just because they didn't like the direction it took and want to disregard it.

[A Nobody]

1 hour ago, Senor500 said:

I feel like people call Doom 3 a tech demo just because they didn't like the direction it took and want to disregard it.

I didn't say I don't like Doom 3.

[Senor500]

1 hour ago, The Strife Commando said:

I didn't say I don't like Doom 3.

I know, that's why I said "people" not "you".

Thing is I usually see that comment to disregard the game.

[A Nobody]

52 minutes ago, Senor500 said:

I know, that's why I said "people" not "you".

Thing is I usually see that comment to disregard the game.

Oh.

[seed]

I think something more in line with the OG Quake could fit the notion of "glorified tech demo".

 

I love the OG Quake and its my favorite in the series by a LONG shot, but I have to admit it exhibits certain... traits of this - the levels aren't too coherent, pretty much every episode takes place elsewhere but without anything connecting them (especially the main hub and its design... ), boss battles that are just a gimmick, no proper story (even more so than classic Doom), and so on. It feels more like a glorified tech demo compared to Quake 2 insofar as it does a lot of things that really show the capabilities of its engine, yes, but nothing really connects in this game.

 

Then again, I find the theory that it doesn't need to, considering its nature, equally valid so...

[Cynical]

On 3/14/2020 at 6:59 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

In case you wonder why I boldly make these claims, I've played many doom RJ maps, I've also played a good amount of quake3 DeFRaG recently, and even looked into Team Fortress 2 rocket jump maps for a while.

Getting good acceleration off of bunnyhops in Quake 1 is much harder than it is in Quake 3; playing DeFrag won't really prepare you for Quake 1/Quakeworld movement.  Furthermore, the fact that speed in Quake is uncapped (unlike an SR50, which has a maximum theoretical speed) means that optimization is a lot harder than in Doom, because there's basically no theoretical ceiling; you can always pick up more speed.

 

(The claim that bunnyhopping and rocket jumping are irrelevant unless you're speedrunning is also kind of silly, they're absolutely critical to be anything other than completely terrible in Quakeworld duel unless you want to play Aerowalk without being able to get the RA...)

[Nine Inch Heels]

11 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Getting good acceleration off of bunnyhops in Quake 1 is much harder than it is in Quake 3

It clearly isn't, regardless as to whether it's VQ3/CPM phyics vs VQ/Quakeworld physics.

 

34 minutes ago, Cynical said:

playing DeFrag won't really prepare you for Quake 1/Quakeworld movement.

Lol... Couldn't be much further from the truth.

 

36 minutes ago, Cynical said:

Furthermore, the fact that speed in Quake is uncapped (unlike an SR50, which has a maximum theoretical speed) means that optimization is a lot harder than in Doom, because there's basically no theoretical ceiling; you can always pick up more speed.

And speedrunners in Doom can always turn quicker, find ideal angles faster, activate SR50 more cleanly and quickly, find shorter lines through maps... Theoretical limits or the lack thereof are irrelevant anyway since speed in quake is already limited severely by way of map geometry. Both games are difficult to optimize for different reasons, even when being played without any monsters at all, deal with it.

 

42 minutes ago, Cynical said:

(The claim that bunnyhopping and rocket jumping are irrelevant unless you're speedrunning is also kind of silly, they're absolutely critical to be anything other than completely terrible in Quakeworld duel unless you want to play Aerowalk without being able to get the RA...) 

Quakeworld physics =/= Vanilla Quake physics, for that matter.

[Cynical]

How on earth is it not harder to bhop well in VQ/QW than VQ3/CPMA?  In QW, you can't strafe jump with W+A/D (have to use A/D only, so you lose speed on every jump inversely proportional to how accurately you're able to tap W timed between them), and your air control makes you constantly change direction which makes your early acceleration is slower (watch how long it takes people to hit 500QUPS in QW vs. VQ3 or CPMA), increases the speed you need to rotate at to move optimally is both faster and has to be done more precisely, and makes the angles change more rapidly.

 

TBH, the movement systems in Quake 1/QW are so different than VQ3/CPMA that it makes me strongly suspect that you're exaggerating when you say you've tried Quake speedrunning and you've played DeFrag, but you think that the latter prepares you for the former. 

 

And, aside from SR50, all of those things are also possible in Quake.  Doom speedrunning takes skill, don't get me wrong, but the skill ceiling in Quake speedrunning is much higher.  There's simply more stuff that has to be mastered; the mechanical skill can go way higher.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Cynical

[HombreSal]

What even is overrated.

 

 

When you say something is overrated, you're implying that value in art is determined by how many people praise it. Art is subjective boys. If you were the one person on earth to like Doom or the one person to dislike it, that doesn't make Doom overrated nor underrated. It just makes it a good or bad game for you and that's it.

 

The only thing I guess you can to judge objectively art in some way, it's to see what it's trying to do. If a story tries to to be the greatest but ends up failing because of plotholes, or if a game tries to have the greatest controls but ends up being uncontrollable, then I guess you can judge it based on that to know if it's bad. Even then, it is you the one who can like something, even when it has problems like these.

 

If you like Big Rigs, that doesn't make it underrated. It just means you like it.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Saltman

[smeghammer]

Not overrated, but classic. As I said in a response to this thread, Doom (1 and 2) got it right at exactly the right time for many of us. I was hooked then and never looked back. Granted, there are may wads and mods nowadays that technically far exceed what was done for the base game, but I do still go back and play the base form time to time and still vastly enjoy it (admittedly with GZDoom engine though... shhhhh!). 

[Devils950003]

Doom is in that rarified air that in DECADES after its initial release, people will still happily play it and enjoy it (even in its original form) just as much as they did when they first discovered it...despite the fact that many bigger and (technologically) better FPS have come out in the years since.  I can’t think of too many other games that have pulled that off...having seemingly endless longevity.  Daytona USA is one (linked cabs in arcade still attract players...and it continues to get purchased for consoles).  Some of the “Golden Age” games (Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, etc) continue to have a lot of appeal. 
 

But it does feel like Doom is almost in a class by itself.  One of the most memorable and replayable games ever made.  So definitely not even a little overrated in my book.

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 hours ago, Cynical said:

How on earth is it not harder to bhop well in VQ/QW than VQ3/CPMA?  In QW, you can't strafe jump with W+A/D (have to use A/D only, so you lose speed on every jump inversely proportional to how accurately you're able to tap W timed between them), and your air control makes you constantly change direction which makes your early acceleration is slower (watch how long it takes people to hit 500QUPS in QW vs. VQ3 or CPMA), increases the speed you need to rotate at to move optimally is both faster and has to be done more precisely, and makes the angles change more rapidly.

Are you aware that you're constantly trying to compare apples and oranges here, while you're also constantly arguing that apples are "harder" than oranges by virtue of being apples? The simple fact of the matter is that if you can use strafe-jumping to increase and maintain speed in one game, then it won't take you long to learn it in the other. Why? Because it's not that difficult to get the basics right in the first place, and optimization is equally difficult in either game but for different reasons.

 

6 hours ago, Cynical said:

TBH, the movement systems in Quake 1/QW are so different than VQ3/CPMA that it makes me strongly suspect that you're exaggerating when you say you've tried Quake speedrunning and you've played DeFrag, but you think that the latter prepares you for the former. 

I've already addressed that above, so I'm not gonna waste more time on repeating myself. If you don't understand that "difficult for different reasons" isn't the same as "more difficult than the other", then I don't know what to tell you at this point.

 

6 hours ago, Cynical said:

And, aside from SR50, all of those things are also possible in Quake.  Doom speedrunning takes skill, don't get me wrong, but the skill ceiling in Quake speedrunning is much higher.  There's simply more stuff that has to be mastered; the mechanical skill can go way higher.

Are you saying that, aside of SR50, quake has literally every other trick that exists in classic Doom as per the Doom movement bible? Not buying that, but by all means, keep your contrarian-gravy train rolling, just don't expect me to pay any more attention than I already have.

[dr_st]

Welcome to Doomworld. Where the dumbest questions can still inspire a 20-page discussion. :)

 

I feel like starting a thread like "Do you feel the sun is going to explode next week? I don't think so, but I just wonder about the opinions of others."

 

9 hours ago, Saltman said:

What even is overrated.

That's easy. Games that got awesome reviews at the time of their release, but are nothing over mediocre. Like Quake II. The original Bioshock. The original Assassin's Creed. Probably many others I haven't personally played. Not Doom.

[Katey Kat]

given how people are still playing it decades later, id say no.

[Nembras]

On 3/11/2020 at 9:35 PM, Fonze said:

[...] yes the base game is overrated in 2020 whenever it gets any recognition beyond being a museum piece to show the stepping stones for where modern gaming is today. There is no reason to play the iwads beyond as a study when endless custom content has surpassed their designs, which shouldnt be a surprise as all of doom's custom content was built on the backs of and foundation laid by the iwads.

 

While I also think that many pwads surpass the iwads in quality, I very strongly (wait, I need to emphasize that more: very strongly!) disagree with the notion that the only reason to play the iwads is academic interest. Among the reasons for my frequent returns to Ultimate Doom and Doom 2, in particular, you will find:

• Familiarity: The thrill of the new is very enjoyable, of course, but I'm not always looking for that thrill. Every once in a while, what I need is something I can play blindfolded and with a normal pulse. There are a couple of pwads where that is the case, but nothing fits the bill as well as the original trilogy and, to some extent, Doom 2.
• Nostalgia: I don't think I have to explain this very much. I played those games in the 90s. Playing them now makes me feel like I'm in the 90s again, which is nice.
• The weight of authority: This one is subjective and kinda dumb, but Doom 1 & 2 have this "official" feel to them, and I quite like that.
• Will to improve: I once wrote down my best times for each of the maps in the original games. Whenever I stumble over those notes, I usually attempt to beat some of the times.
• Genuine quality: Granted, there are many wads that are objectively better^{(whatever that may mean, but let's not open that particular can of worms, shall we?)} than the iwads. That does not diminish the quality of the original mapsets, though. It would be a pitty not to enjoy something good on the basis that it is not the best.
• Uniqueness: Many custom maps replicate the feel of OG Doom rather faithfully, but the originals do something for me that not even the most accurate imitation will. Maybe that's simply a consequence of nostalgia, and shouldn't be listed as a separate reason, but I already typed these sentences and don't want to waste them.

 

 

[Cynical]

11 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Are you aware that you're constantly trying to compare apples and oranges here, while you're also constantly arguing that apples are "harder" than oranges by virtue of being apples? The simple fact of the matter is that if you can use strafe-jumping to increase and maintain speed in one game, then it won't take you long to learn it in the other. Why? Because it's not that difficult to get the basics right in the first place, and optimization is equally difficult in either game but for different reasons.

https://learntocounter.com/apples-and-oranges-and-morons/