Doom 64's New Release & GZDoom

[Darman Macray]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but--

 

Can the new official release of Doom 64 (available at Bethesda.net for $4.99) be run through GZDoom, or does it have vastly different guts than Doom and Doom II?

 

Does it even have a .wad file?

 

EDIT: *Grammer :)

[Edward850]

23 minutes ago, Darman Macray said:

Can the new official release of Doom 64 (available at Bethesda.net for $4.99) be run through GZDoom

No.

23 minutes ago, Darman Macray said:

or does it have vastly different guts than Doom and Doom II?

Not vastly, but different enough to be quite incompatible (updated map format, new lighting system, no global palette, macro scripting, added enemy and weapon behaviour, I question how many other ports could load a custom DLS for MIDI...)

23 minutes ago, Darman Macray said:

Does it even have a .wad file?

Yes. In fact it has several. There's a single IWAD that itself contains more IWADs for each map. Yes this is true for the N64 ROM.

[Tony_Danza_the_boss]

From what I've seen of it it's on an updated Doom engine than the original wads you'd find in the 90s games. My guess is that it probably won't run through GZDoom, but I have not tried it yet as I don't own it.

[Gez]

GZDoom does not support Doom 64 at the moment.

 

The guts are very similar to classic Doom, however the map format is different, the actors are different (even those that are the same: the collision box for the barons and knights, for example, use different values from the classic barons and knights), and there are different features, which make support for the game difficult.

 

You can use Doom64 EX, but the engine provided should be superior on all points.

[Darman Macray]

15 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

No.

Not vastly, but different enough to be quite incompatible (updated map format, new lighting system, no global palette, macro scripting, added enemy and weapon behaviour...)

Yes. In fact it has several. There's a single IWAD that itself contains more IWADs for each map. Yes this is true for the N64 ROM.

 

15 minutes ago, Gez said:

GZDoom does not support Doom 64 at the moment.

 

The guts are very similar to classic Doom, however the map format is different, the actors are different (even those that are the same: the collision box for the barons and knights, for example, use different values from the classic barons and knights), and there are different features, which make support for the game difficult.

 

You can use Doom64 EX, but the engine provided should be superior on all points.

 

Gotcha--I suspected as much. 

 

Would compatibility be a worthwhile endeavor one might expect as an additional feature for GZDoom at some point, or would that be more trouble than its worth to try and accomplish?

 

EDIT: I guess I'm wondering if I should run through the game legit through this release and its current config, play "Doom 64 for Doom II," or wait to see if the legit .Iwad (or Iwads?) might become compatible with Zdoom.

[Gez]

There's interest from the GZDoom dev in supporting Doom 64, but do not wait for it before playing, it could be years before it happens.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

It will take a long time to have other sourceports being able to actually play it.
But a simpler feature, of allowing GZDoom to simply be able to ignore the syntax problems in the ANIMDEFS lump and read the .wad and read the sprites and textures, would be easier to pull.
This would initially allow projects such as Brutal Doom 64 and Doom 64 Retribution to require the actual game to be played instead of being Doom 2 mods.
Later. it would make it easier to write code to make actors work properly in the engine.

I messaged Graf about it yesterday, but he doesn't seems interested in this.

[Redneckerz]

19 hours ago, Gez said:

There's interest from the GZDoom dev in supporting Doom 64, but do not wait for it before playing, it could be years before it happens.

So the best semi official option in terms of GZDoom compatibility is DZDoom's Doom 64 support, although that's not the re-release, plus it runs on a legacy GZDoom build.

 

The best option outside the re-release remains Doom64EX as far as i am concerned.

[Deleted_Account]

21 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

It will take a long time to have other sourceports being able to actually play it.
But a simpler feature, of allowing GZDoom to simply be able to ignore the syntax problems in the ANIMDEFS lump and read the .wad and read the sprites and textures, would be easier to pull.
This would initially allow projects such as Brutal Doom 64 and Doom 64 Retribution to require the actual game to be played instead of being Doom 2 mods.
Later. it would make it easier to write code to make actors work properly in the engine.

I messaged Graf about it yesterday, but he doesn't seems interested in this.

Do you have any further plans for Brutal Doom 64? I really liked it.

[Spicy Cacodemon]

How does Doom64EX compare with the original and more recent official ports?

 

Are there any noticeable differences in graphics and gameplay or is EX practically indistinguishable?

 

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

1 hour ago, User Name said:

Do you have any further plans for Brutal Doom 64? I really liked it.

Yes I do, there are a lot of special effects that can be polished. But Brutal Doom 64 currently sits at a complicated place, I'm afraid that Bethesda can C&D it any moment now, so I don't want to spend any time with it until I find a way to run it with Steam's version of Doom 64's resources to make the mod to require the actual game to be played.
 

 

27 minutes ago, Spicy Cacodemon said:

How does Doom64EX compare with the original and more recent official ports?

 

Are there any noticeable differences in graphics and gameplay or is EX practically indistinguishable?

 

The official release is basically EX with brighter levels, and no looking up/down. That's all I noticed.

[Edward850]

48 minutes ago, Spicy Cacodemon said:

Are there any noticeable differences in graphics and gameplay or is EX practically indistinguishable?

Three point filtering, fixed spec issues with sprites (graphics like keycards were being converted incorrectly resulting on holes), improved/complete demo accurate game behaviour (enemy gravity was wrong, frame table had incorrect times in places, objects despawned too quickly causing timing issues for some macros), title and attract demos now plays back in sync, hectic demo unlock functional. Also sprites are no longer clipped by the floor. 

 

Plus new maps of course. 

 

EX also has its own issues from age such as save files crashing and broken mouse support in 10.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Edward850

[Faceman2000]

 

36 minutes ago, Spicy Cacodemon said:

How does Doom64EX compare with the original and more recent official ports?

 

Are there any noticeable differences in graphics and gameplay or is EX practically indistinguishable?

 

Kaiser mentioned a few things in an interview recently:

 

”There were many subtle things that were missed when I initially reverse engineered the game, such as enemies being able to trigger the dart traps in Even Simpler. Enemies having different falling physics compared to the player's. Delays in scripted events being one-frame shorter—the split door in Breakdown is a good example of that—and [the] slightly different line-of-sight logic.”

[VGA]

2 hours ago, Faceman2000 said:

 

Kaiser mentioned a few things in an interview recently:

 

”There were many subtle things that were missed when I initially reverse engineered the game, such as enemies being able to trigger the dart traps in Even Simpler. Enemies having different falling physics compared to the player's. Delays in scripted events being one-frame shorter—the split door in Breakdown is a good example of that—and [the] slightly different line-of-sight logic.”

Kaiser has posted way more info here

 

https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/25961097/posts/498

[Edward850]

8 minutes ago, VGA said:

Kaiser has posted way more info here

 

https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/25961097/posts/498

You might want to post a public link: https://doom64ex.wordpress.com/2020/03/24/differences-between-doom-64-ex-2-5-versus-the-official-remaster/

[Gez]

15 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I messaged Graf about it yesterday, but he doesn't seems interested in this.

Graf, besides GZDoom, is also busy with Raze and a PrBoom+ fork nowadays. Plus, of course, professional work -- programming is a "work from home" job, so the covid-19 quarantine isn't giving him more free time.

[DoomedSpartan]

20 hours ago, Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Yes I do, there are a lot of special effects that can be polished. But Brutal Doom 64 currently sits at a complicated place, I'm afraid that Bethesda can C&D it any moment now, so I don't want to spend any time with it until I find a way to run it with Steam's version of Doom 64's resources to make the mod to require the actual game to be played.
 

 

The official release is basically EX with brighter levels, and no looking up/down. That's all I noticed.

So Brutal Doom 64 will be moved to the official re release.Nice can’t wait plus its less work since you won’t need a lot of the resources.You’d just have to make the mod compatible(that’s gonna be really hard).Hey Mark if you would do that you should use new revenant sprites

[DoomedSpartan]

I’m honestly kinda disappointed with the re release.Its good but it’s still missing features.The only new feature was The Lost levels episode.I wanted to see the demons that were originally cut reintroduced.And I can’t believe that they dint took the chance and time to implement them

[DoomedSpartan]

I would’ve honestly have liked a new boss in this re release  with This Cyberdemon with 2 canons

[Edward850]

9 minutes ago, DoomedSpartan said:

Its good but it’s still missing features

What feature are we missing that was in the original Doom64?

[DoomedSpartan]

6 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

What feature are we missing that was in the original Doom64?

Nothing really but a lot of features got cut during development for cartridge limitations.Like that red cyberdemon and the revenant.The revenant ai is in the game in the form of traps but no sprites or melee attacks 

[DoomedSpartan]

Also there plans on adding a new enemy: the hellhound a sculpture was made  for sprites but it got cut

[DoomedSpartan]

Nightmare specters from DoomPsx were also gonna be introduced but they got cut.

[Deleted_Account]

@DoomedSpartan

 

You'll be interested in this project.

 

 

[Edward850]

11 minutes ago, DoomedSpartan said:

Nothing really but a lot of features got cut during development for cartridge limitations.Like that red cyberdemon and the revenant.The revenant ai is in the game in the form of traps but no sprites or melee attacks 

So a couple of things there: The cut enemies no longer exist, these aren't things that could be "readded" without being remade completely from scratch. Also No, the "Revenant AI" didn't exist, only the projectile did, there was nothing remaining to restore in that regard either.

Literally what was released was all that remains. Anything past that would require vastly more work than what it would be wortht.

[VGA]

@DoomedSpartan

 

That Revenant is a fanmade sprite, it was not cut from the original game. And this new version of Doom 64 is a faithful port of the game (with a bonus episode) to current consoles and the PC, it's not a remake, a sequel or a mod. You "can't believe" they didn't include new monsters?

 

Classic Doom has been officially ported to newer systems several times, do you see new monsters getting added? We were lucky to get the awesome NRFTL bonus episode several years ago.

[Erick194]

I have goals that I have not yet decided, but in them is Doom64, although I am happy with the work that Kaiser does.

[DoomedSpartan]

21 hours ago, VGA said:

That Revenant is a fanmade sprite

Bro I know it’s fan made just Saying Mark should use that instead of that enemy from blood with the shoulder mounted rocket launchers.I can say there’s a strong chance the revenant could’ve looked like that if implemented.Also in the Classic Doom games I haven’t heard of a demon getting cut.

Edited March 25, 2020 by DoomedSpartan

[Immorpher]

1 hour ago, DoomedSpartan said:

Bro I know it’s fan made just Saying Mark should use that instead of that enemy from blood with the shoulder mounted rocket launchers.I can say there’s a strong chance the revenant could’ve looked like that if implemented.Also in the Classic Doom games I haven’t heard of a demon getting cut.

Doom on the PS1 cut the arch-vile. Other ports had cut demons too. For the SNES a ton of animation frames were cut. It was common to have ports cut certain aspects for performance and memory. People forget that Doom 64 was one of the very early N64 titles when cartridges had low memory. Everything, including the new music sounds had to fit within 7 MB.

[NightFright]

Doom64 support will eventually arrive in GZDoom. Play it now on Steam and be sure to make backup copies of doom64.wad and doom64.dls before you uninstall, you might need those later.