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Peter Heinemann

points about Unix/Linux vs. Windows

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I posted this first as a reply to a post by Katarhyne in this thread
"Furries make Doom crash!" by Nanami
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10890&perpage=30&pagenumber=1
but then I thought it would have ruined the thread because of its size and off-topic nature. So I deleted it and made a new thread - here.
Can an OS thread live without flaming? Hope so. To the "Hell Gods of Fire": If this post is considered "excessive" in its length or "plain negative", feel free to burn it.

Katarhyne said:

"...for the fact that for most day-to-day applications, Windows is a platform far superior to any Linux."


Kat, I would prefer this formulation:

"For the average user ("non-nerd" = less computer-literate person) and his most day-to-day applications Windows is a far better platform than any Linux. And there is no need for him to use a Unix based OS if he does not want to run a server (stability)."

:::fears the stick that crashed down on Sepiroth´s head and hides:::

The problem of the several Linux is that they are more targeted to the "nerdish" people, means a user who knows to set up and maintain a Unix based operating system which is not that easy... But then, there is Nextstep 3.3 (which sadly is a bit old now). Nextstep hides its Unix power under a very sleek and "dull user" - friendly" surface, but can also be used as y mighty tool for coders and administrators who prefer bare Unix. Btw: Doom was coded on Nextstep (not only some Wads) and the whole WWW was born on the NeXT in 1991.

The several Linux were far better server operating system than both MacOS and Windows until MacOSX appeared... Personally, I don´t see any reason for me to run Linux as a home-user station. I like to play around with it, but not much more.

The problem of the several Windows systems is that there are lots of traps and hell-holes waiting for the user who thinks that this "wonderful" Microsoft gift (btw: "Gift" means "Poison" in German language, anyway) cannot be harmful.

Well, it can, even a MacOS computer, aka Mac (BBG: which does not necessarily means "iMac" or "School Mac" :) can easily turn into a "data-river of no return" if the user forgets to do his backup-duty or does not save his work, but on a Windows based system there are certainly many more traps. The Mac - as an example - has the so called "Hierarchical File System" aka HFS and the more modern HFS+, which is far more sophisticated (has binary tree index) than what is on IBM compatible PC´s harddrives since decades due to "compatibility reasons". The more reliable filesystem helps to reduce the occurrence of data-loss and finally makes data-recovery easier. Actually, I doubles the chances of keeping your data OK or get them back in the case of an accidentally delete festival (either OS crash or user was brain dead).

On a Linux system, there are at least the several accounts "root" and "user" which gives some safety and protects important data (the OS included:).

What makes a Mac´s hardware more easy to handle is *not* that there is less hardware, it is just because the computers´s hardware is more standardised (it´s mostly from Apple).

Personally - after some trials in several Unix based systems - I can say that I like Unix systems, despite I am not a Unix lord, but I am learning. I tried several Linux on my Macs: MKLinuxDR3 (RedHat), LinuxPPC2000 (flame on). And then HP-UX on my HPPA712/60 (Hewlett Packard). It took me some time here and there. A very friendly OS is MacOSX and I do not forget Nextstep (on my "Cube" and "TurboColorStation", love them).

Maybe I can bring some info here to the people who think that MacOSX is a blatant rip-off of FreeBSD: No, it is not. It is based on Nextstep technology, indeed the whole so called "classic" MacOS is soaked with Nextstep technology since MacOS 8.0 (the formally planned "Copland"), you know, Apple bought NeXT Inc. The kernel is based on FreeBSD.

If you (you all) want to see an OS that is *highly* superior to any Linux, Windows and what more OS with day-to-day applications in mind, go look at MacOSX or Nextstep <---which is an abandoned OS, so not many more apps to come.

Of course, if you are seriously into gaming and don´t want to stick solely to the games released by id, then you have no choice at all - sigh :/

Adding hardware to a running system is very easy under the MacOS, somewhat harder under Windows but can be a pain in Linux (took me a day to get the CD-Rom working and about one week for the modem).

I would never respect a person more than any other only for investing his time in difficult system maintenance where he could have an OS that is far easier to maintain and offers the same or even more performance and flexibility.

BTW: There is a port of Nextstep for the Intel platform (also for HPPA and Sun), so you can install Steve Jobs operating system even on your - and I say this in a wake moment - "not-guilty" PCs.

A mobo holding a Pentium cpu cannot be held responsible for what Microsoft burns onto their CDs.

On the Intel box that is under my table are the following OS installed (on several harddrives):
Nextstep (to compare it with Nextstep on my Cube), Win95 (will be deleted), Win98 (for online gaming), QNX (for virus free internet surfing on Intel), BeOS, Tandy Deskmate <---huu

Just a few thoughts of mine...

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Ct_red_pants said:

Windows plays lots of games.
Linux plays very few games.

No arguments for me.

Yeah, since there are also a lot of games realeased for the Mac and I can run older games in emulation, they are also not very strong arguments for me. Doom3 will be released for Linux, Mac and Windows at the same time :) But someone who wants to play *every* new game immediately might find Windows more attractive?

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Peter Heinemann said:

But someone who wants to play *every* new game immediately might find Windows more attractive?

Yes. This someone would most likely be your average Joe Blow who wants to play games straight away, or even your average game player. Not everyone is cut out to learn how to get something running and tweaking and shit...heh.

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mmnpsrsoskl said:

Yes. This someone would most likely be your average Joe Blow who wants to play games straight away, or even your average game player. Not everyone is cut out to learn how to get something running and tweaking and shit...heh.

Well, I just formulated what the average gamer may ask for. I also have to spend much time in getting something running. See, I am not the Windows lover here, but when I said "someone who wants to play *every* new game immediately might find Windows more attractive" I meant that many games come out for MacOS or Linux with a somewhat bigger delay . Well, I can wait... I can.

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Linux itself is superior to Windows in every sense. Fredrik thinks the problem is that the user software for Linux can't compete with the software available for Windows.

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Ah yes. but you see, I play games from all over the place. new old, and in between. Linux may be able to play most new popular games, but what about not so well known gems? for example, System Shock 2 (IMO the best game ever made) never got a Linux release AFAIK. same with the Thief games, the orignal AvP was Windows only (i think). just little things like that. also, most source ports are windows only.

There's nothing wrong with Linux, but It just dosn't suit me as a heavy game player.

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Your post started off fine but ended up as an excuse to masturbate all over Steve Jobs and his operating systems.

Linux is a fine OS but it is *not* ready for the desktop. No windowmanagers are as well designed or well integrated as even Windows is. The command line is not something that 98% of users are ever going to want to deal with. Game support on Linux is laughable. Etc etc...

Linux is a lot better than it was in, say, 1999, and maybe in 2005 it will be on par with Microsoft's latest OS in terms of ease of use and program availability and everything, but not yet.

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Linguica said:
maybe in 2005 it will be on par with Microsoft's latest OS in terms of ease of use and program availability

I really doubt it. Not ease of use that is. I think it would take at least an entire decade to explain and show the typical developper coach how awfully easy it is to make cross-platform code. And fast. And reliable. And maintainable.
For the time being, companies prefer to propose bloated unstable platform (if not platform version) specific progs. They may work of course and as long as 99% of the users will have windows... you got the deal.

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most games are out for LINUX anyway.

Linux has become more user friendly. I put it on a friends computer, and this guy knows nothing about computers, he had no problems useing it. Though my beef is drivers, they are more involved to install. also modems piss me off because of the growing popularity of win or controllerless modems. even a modem that said "full hardware" was still controllerless.

I really vioce trying LINUX for the main reason of learning more about your computer. Also to try other things than windows. Linux does have many features over windows. another factor is price, i am not going to spend 200 for a new version of windows(i never buy update packs) when Linux is dirt cheap.

If u have the chance and the space give it a shot. i have both windows and linux on the same computer. however before you do, check and get the specs of your hardware

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Linguica said:

Your post started off fine but ended up as an excuse to masturbate all over Steve Jobs and his operating systems.

Hehe, yes, I read my post all over again - can be correct - the problem is that I can hardly get my fingers and brain under control since black magnesium hardware resides on my table. Well, I typed too much and maybe my powers shrunk to the end of the post (which took me just 15 minutes to write :).
I am not that fanatic, I have many OS´s and I love to explore them. There are also things in W98 I like. There are pros and cons on almost every platform.

But it is a fact (I think so) that Nextstep is very less known to PC users. It was an operating system technologically far, far beyond everything any other company had to offer at this time and - even though it is abandoned - well worth a look. A *most unusual* easy to handle Unix system without any need of command line usage back in in 1988 :)

Anyway, I did not want to make propaganda, sorry if it ended this way. My favourite OSes are:

MacOS 8.6 (old, but slim and fast)
MacOSX/Nextstep
QNX <--its free, download it at tucows *
W98
PCDOS7.0 <--I use it in emulation on the Mac :)
Linux on the Mac <--more a toy in my hands

Here is informative stuff to read about Nextstep:
http://www.levenez.com/NeXTSTEP/NeXTSTEP.pdf

*= Anyone wants QNX? Free stuff! 29mb download. Can be installed within Windows. Cool stuff!
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=9111
download links inside this thread. QNX does not work with winmodems, sorry.

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Well, anything which gave birth to both DOOM and the Web has to be treated with at least a bit of respect.

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Windows or LINUX?

Derr, personal prefrence, I guess.

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Linguica said:

Linux is a fine OS but it is *not* ready for the desktop.

As long as most people don't have a clue about what is www, ftp, http, I would say most of the people aren't ready for the desktop either. The majority is still only capable of clicking links in IE and downloading viruses through Outlook and Kazaa, can't expect them to use much of Windows, much less anything of Linux.
"Ready for the desktop" is pretty much about what you are used to. Of course you cannot dump it on someone whose only experience was AOL, but that's true for most software.
As for software not being available for Linux, I'm quite fine with Phoenix, XMMS, mldonkey, gaim, mplayer, and XChat (currently open apps on my desktop). Sure, we could use some professional grade software from Adobe and the like, but that's about their business practice and not the OS.
Just wanted to add my opinion.

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